THE definitive Avengers villain?

[CSTowle]

Cyclops? Deliberate murder? Did you read the story, or are you grasping for examples of anyone who can match the Scarlet Witch's horrific history that you ignore when people are actually possessed and not fundamentally altering the lives of millions of people and killing who knows how many (but without doubt, killing some) using only their own innate powers?

She might be on a path to redemption, if she was the least bit remorseful. Instead she's combative with the X-Men and other mutants whenever anyone points out that, "holy s##t guys, that's the woman who wiped most of us out!" At least Tony Stark felt bad about cloning Thor and killing Goliath.

It makes Bendis' current storyline in the X-Books all the more confusing, a character just like Wanda (unbelievable level of power, scary lack of control) had to be basically lobotomized by Prof. X and now the remaining X-Men have to deal with him. Why aren't the Avengers treating Wanda in the same fashion? Membership having its privileges? Unless this is a subtle Bendis troll on the Scarlet Witch.

[hawkeyefan]

I read the comics the point is she is a powerful tool like the cosmic cube or a infinity gem that any villain can manipulate which is why imo she is the most definative because any villain on the list can use her as a tool to do their evil deeds, and when she is being manipulated by a villain she has caused the most damage to the Avengers.

They way you describe her, sounds like she is the tool of villains rather than an actual villain.

Who is Spider-Man's greatest enemy, Green Goblin or one if his pumpkin bombs?

Anyway, on topic, I went with Kang because when written well he's just a cool character, with a lot to him. Ultron is a good villain too, but it's a robot that wants to eliminate human life. There's not a lot of subtlety there.

[Nomads1]

Ultron is the only exclusive Avengers villain on the list, has to be him

Not really. Go check Annihilation Conquest to see Ultron operating on a much larger scale than just earth and the Avengers. He has also plagued the FF and the Inhumans in at least one occasion. I guess no such thing as an exclusive villain in the MU.

From recollection, Korvac wasn't a villain in the Korvac saga (although he was in his previous appearance)? He was - according to Moondragon, anyway - an attempted saviour of mankind who perished because of the Avengers' misguided heroic zeal. And he, after all, was the one to resurrect the Avengers, practically instantaneously.

That has also been kind of retconned. Go check the first Vol of Jim Valentino's Guardians of the Galaxy TPB. Appearently Korvac's motivations weren't as pure as we were led to believe in the original storyline.

Peace

[BlitheringToot]

For me it's a tossup between Loki and Thanos. Thanos is the greater threat but Loki ... he's the one who started it all. I haven't read enough about Kang to appreciate him fully, and Ultron ... I feel is overused. I like Ultron because he's an Avengers-CREATED threat, and what could be more terrifying than that? But he'll always take a backseat behind Loki and Thanos to me.

[Mikekerr3]

Exactly. Pietro and Wanda's sister, Lorna, did some nasty things too, while possessed as well, but she seems to be given the benefit of the doubt, unlike Scarlet Witch.

It is discrimination most likely. Certainly scape-goat-ism.

Just like the Salem Witches and Witches around the world through time. *not really witches, but blamed for any and every thing bad*. So the current crop of haters, mostly mutant/X-fans have resorted to a persecution attitude, that actually reflects on their own evil thoughts. Don't take issue with me, psychologists have said this for ages. We project out our fear, anger, etc on convenient scapegoats, with "witches" being near the top of the list.

Or how about the fact that she is a genocidal loon, mostly unrepentant, Just attacked all the mutants again a few issues ago,

If the hatred and fear are personally well earned it is not discrimination if is called thinking rationally.

[Mikekerr3]

Discrimination is the singling out of a 'type' and then persecuting them for it.

Wolverine, has, without remorse, killed many. He was not always mind-controlled. He decides as judge, jury and executioner. Others have said, and proven, in my mind, that Wanda did not intentionally try to kill those Avengers. They were things that happened as a result of her craziness. Not direct actions on her part, which would be murder. You know, like Wolverine has done.

Wanda is actually one of the greatest heroines of all, has sacrificed quite a bit of her own happiness in fact.

She has never deliberately committed such a grave act of violence. She has been punished for the actions of her crazy behavior.

Has Wolverine? Has Rogue? (I would say, yes, but also not really held to the same standard that many here hold Wanda too.)
Has Cyclops? Whether deliberate killing of Prof X (at least) I would say there is some punishment, but again, he's not being held to the same standard as you hold Wanda to.
Was Polaris punished for her role in the Mutant Massacre? Not really, she was a "victim", possessed by Malice. Malice may be a deadly and evil being, but Chton would be much more evil, much more capable of committing evil through a human vessel. Lorna gets a pass that Wanda never will.

All characters, especially all the ones I mention go through the typical story/soap device of rotating (in no particular order) through 3 primary roles:

Victim, Victimizer, and Redemptionist. Every character needs to walk the path of redemption. If only some would let them.

Wanda has never been punished for her crazy behavior, not the Crazy behavir of going to doom, not her crazy behavior of attacking all the mutants again this year. What punishment has she had for even the hundreds she killed

[Coin Biter]

That has also been kind of retconned. Go check the first Vol of Jim Valentino's Guardians of the Galaxy TPB. Appearently Korvac's motivations weren't as pure as we were led to believe in the original storyline.

Ah, OK, thanks for the info. Another retcon :-(

(Actually, thinking of retcons, and to go totally off topic, I rather liked Bendis'-semi retcon in House of M of the whole Xorneto fiasco, that the Scarlet Witch may have altered reality to bring Mags back as a guy who didn't murder thousands of New Yorkers, rather than the whole lame "Xorn as separate character" explanation. That was an elegant solution.)

[Coin Biter]

Fair enough I like your approach of not taking one side over the other. As to Korvac even if he did won his human nature would have destroyed the universe out of anger over other abstracts.

Thanks for the clarification!

[The Overlord]

Or how about the fact that she is a genocidal loon, mostly unrepentant, Just attacked all the mutants again a few issues ago,

If the hatred and fear are personally well earned it is not discrimination if is called thinking rationally.

When we say "she is crazy" are we talking about her as a psychopath or someone who is genuinely mentally ill and cannot tell the difference between right and wrong? One of these things is more sympathetic then the other.

Frankly the problem isn't that Scarlet Witch is an evil character, the problem is Bendis dragged up a bunch of plot threads that were resolved long ago, in order to make her crazy and have her depower almost all the mutants. Why couldn't some villain had done that instead, it wouldn't have tainted a character who has traditionally been heroic?

I also think anyone who thinks Scarlet Witch is the worse villain the Avengers ever faced, is ignoring the competition. I am not going to defend Scarlet Witch's actions in M-Day, but they are not worse then the things Ultron pulls on a regular basis. Depowering mutants is bad, but Ultron dropping a bomb on a country, killing half the population and turning the rest into his cyborg slaves is worse. The difference is Ultron is supposed to be a villain, he is supposed to do bad things, having Scarlet Witch do these things taints the character in a way it doesn't for an actual villain. The moral of the story is, leave the villainous stuff to the villains.

[Oberon]

I said something like this before. Bendis or someone in editorial wanted to accomplish 2 things:

1) raise the profile of the Avengers
2) Kull the Mutant population

the fact that Hack-Bendis used Wanda, and there are a number of quotes and data that suggest he just didn't like "magic/witchy" characters, is plain to see.

[gurkle]

your opinion of whether or not that was entirely out of character is just that. opinion.

It may be opinion (though it's actually not) but it's simply a fact that there was no buildup in the comics to her breakdown, and that it relied on her developing powers she never had before, and wanting to wipe out mutants despite having never shown any desire to do so before. That's not good villain writing. How can someone be a good villain when there's no reason given for their villainy?

Wanda has never been punished for her crazy behavior, not the Crazy behavir of going to doom, not her crazy behavior of attacking all the mutants again this year. What punishment has she had for even the hundreds she killed

Getting banned from the comics for years is pretty much the worst punishment of all. Her punishment for her stupid mutant rapture plan was to again be removed from the books for months. This is the worst punishment any character can get, and certainly worse than Cyclops, whose "punishment" is to be in multiple books and starring in two of them as two different versions of himself.

Even in-universe, having all your friends abandon you and leave you trapped in a supervillain's castle for years is more severe punishment than most villains get.

I get that it was fun to blame Wanda for Decimation despite this being a really stupid plot, and now that the books are starting to dismiss it as the stupid plot it is, it's less fun. But given that almost no characters in this universe serve prison time for anything, she's actually been punished more than most bad guys, let alone good guys who do bad things.

I mean just look at the actual villains on the list. Hardly any of them pay anything for what they've done. Mostly they just get defeated and go away to plot for next time. (True, Kang once planned to serve jail time and let Marcus take over, but Marcus immediately broke him out.) Few of them ever are out of comics for as long as Wanda was. The demand that she be "punished" really doesn't mean much of anything except that the Decimation storyline should be strung out a little longer.

[Mikekerr3]

When we say "she is crazy" are we talking about her as a psychopath or someone who is genuinely mentally ill and cannot tell the difference between right and wrong? One of these things is more sympathetic then the other.

Up until the scene at Xavier grave I would have gone for the mental ill, But since that and UA I would go for the pychopath

Frankly the problem isn't that Scarlet Witch is an evil character, the problem is Bendis dragged up a bunch of plot threads that were resolved long ago, in order to make her crazy and have her depower almost all the mutants. Why couldn't some villain had done that instead, it wouldn't have tainted a character who has traditionally been heroic?

A character is what they are written as regrettably She is written as a psychopath, who gets offended when people call her on her past actions and minimizes them even to the point of trying to excuse genocide as no big deal at times. Remender has done more harm to her that Bendis did her attacking the entire mutant population once again is an example of that. CC and UA made redemption for the character even harder to do since both make her look horribly bad

I also think anyone who thinks Scarlet Witch is the worse villain the Avengers ever faced, is ignoring the competition. I am not going to defend Scarlet Witch's actions in M-Day, but they are not worse then the things Ultron pulls on a regular basis. Depowering mutants is bad, but Ultron dropping a bomb on a country, killing half the population and turning the rest into his cyborg slaves is worse. The difference is Ultron is supposed to be a villain, he is supposed to do bad things, having Scarlet Witch do these things taints the character in a way it doesn't for an actual villain. The moral of the story is, leave the villainous stuff to the villains.

Who has murdered more Avengers?

[Mikekerr3]

I said something like this before. Bendis or someone in editorial wanted to accomplish 2 things:

1) raise the profile of the Avengers
2) Kull the Mutant population

the fact that Hack-Bendis used Wanda, and there are a number of quotes and data that suggest he just didn't like "magic/witchy" characters, is plain to see.

It was one of Joe Qs genies, and of all the fixes for "Joe's genies' it was the least idiotic and damaging. That is not saying much though.

[gurkle]

Up until the scene at Xavier grave I would have gone for the mental ill, But since that and UA I would go for the pychopath
A character is what they are written as regrettably She is written as a psychopath, who gets offended when people call her on her past actions and minimizes them even to the point of trying to excuse genocide as no big deal at times.

Nobody gives writers that much power unless they want to. You're not saying "she's an evil psychopath" because you read that scene (not a good scene, I agree) in Uncanny Avengers #1 and now it's out of your hands. You just found that scene more interesting than the scenes where she's written more sympathetically (like any of her guest appearances outside Uncanny Avengers, or even certain scenes in Uncanny Avengers itself). Which is fine, until you go around demanding that everyone must accept that she is evil because one writer wrote her as a dick to Rogue in one scene. You can interpret her any way you enjoy the character, but why demand Avengers fans do the same?

Who has murdered more Avengers?

Even before Disassembled was (quite rightly) retconned as Doom's idea, none of the deaths were portrayed as intentional. So Korvac, who intentionally killed all the Avengers, wins on that one.

[AcesX1X]

Even before Disassembled was (quite rightly) retconned as Doom's idea, none of the deaths were portrayed as intentional. So Korvac, who intentionally killed all the Avengers, wins on that one.

i'm pretty sure she intentionally bombed the avenger mansion to kill lang and jack of hearts, delusional or not. and intentionally infected vision with ultron monsters.