Thoughts on possible retconning the sequel trilogy

[godisawesome]

That doesn't track at all. Rey costumes have been up there with Elsa and Anna as the best-selling Halloween costumes pretty much since TFA first came out.

So it isn't that merch sales are bad because nobody liked the films...they're bad because the demographic is changing. Kids these days just aren't big on action figures the way they used to be and companies are slow to adjust.

I’d say there is *some* truth to the ST - okay, mostly TLJ and it’s impact on TROS - killing off enough interest to cause disproportionate impact on merch sales outside of the change in kid interests.

First off, merch is more than action figures - and it was the PT’s stuff targeted at older kids with allowances and spending money that made up the other half of the PT’s monstrous nature as a merch mover, in comics, games, and spin-off media over a decade later. TLJ basically killed off even previously successful ST spin-offs, like Poe’s comic, because of how it dumped his characterization, and it clearly neutered the long term appeal of Rey, Finn, and Kylo beyond the intitial success of TFA - Rey continues to be the best “Jedi Girl” option using mostly TFA and TROS designers, while Kylo’s TFA suit remains the only one little kids really like, and ain’t no one cosplaying as Ben Solo outside of handsome white guys cruising for fangirls at Comic-Con’s.

Second, part of the comparison that reflects badly on post-TLJ merch is that Power Ranger was actually valued more than Star Wars shortly after TLJ. While both merchandise franchises took hits, one surpassing the other is a marker of a lack of interest.

Third, though this is less a debate with you and more just an attack on TLJ - cause it’s what I do - I would again reiterate that, as much as Abrams is a generally shallow storyteller, it’s his stuff from his movie that dominates what’s left of the ST market place, and not just because he did two movies to Johnson’s one. Johnson wasted and devalued his own creations as much as he did Abrams - no one’s going to dress up as Rose or Holdo or DJ.

[Xwho]

Why not make a alternate reality when also keep the previous one with the sequel's like what Abrams did with Star Trek and explore the alternate one with web series and not films?

[Ascended]

Hello Ascended !
How do you want to do that when the Last Jedi takes place immediately after The Force Awakens and Rise takes place just a few months after the Last Jedi and the characters don't seem to have gotten to know each other much better ?

Mostly you have to add things before and after the films.

Let's say that we learn that Luke did successfully train several new Jedi before going into exile, and those Jedi were off world when Ben turned to the dark side, looking for their own students to teach. Suddenly Luke's not such a failure as a teacher. Let's say part of why he went into exile wasn't just because of what happened with Ben, but because he realized he was training the new Jedi just like the old Jedi were trained (including him), and he was unintentionally setting the new Order up for the same flaws and failings that took down the previous one. Suddenly Luke isn't being a selfish jerk for leaving, he's making a noble sacrifice by removing his influence, allowing the new Jedi to grow beyond him and his legend.

Let's say that after the sequels, Finn begins training in the Force and helps rebuild a new Jedi Order. Makes up for a lot of his treatment in TLJ and TRoS right? Alternatively he could become a big, important general and military leader for the next government, if him becoming Jedi isn't to your tastes. Hell, do both!

Let's say that after the sequels, Rey never mentions Kylo again and begins a new adventure building the new Jedi along with Finn. All the toxic crap with Kylo still happened but it's never mentioned again outside of maybe a few jokes about Rey having bad taste in men.

And doing that with Luke, Finn, and Rey also gives you two different Jedi factions to play with, should anyone be interested: the orthodox Jedi who Luke trained and the new Jedi put together by Finn and Rey.

Do some flashbacks that flesh out Poe's relationship with Leia (TLJ set them up with a mentor/student dynamic that Fisher never got to delve into), and then have Poe help rebuild a new government in her honor and memory. Now the new New Republic is made in Leia's image, a worthwhile institution that makes Leia look great for being its inspiration, and it enriches Poe's story as he transitions from soldier to politician.

The Clone Wars show was able to salvage the awful prequel movies by adding stuff between film Episodes. The sequels are too squished together to do that but you have decades of unexplored history in either direction to work with, and the revelation of something happening in the past can provide new context and understanding to events in the sequels while stuff that happens after can course-correct them.

Hell you could even justify Rey claiming the Skywalker name by revealing her mother was somehow related to Anakin and Luke. An aunt or cousin or something. That adds some context to her connection to Kylo as well as her natural affinity for the Force, and genuinely puts the Skywalker bloodline back in play, rather than having someone from the rival family co-opt it undeservingly. Sure, that doesn't entirely make sense and it's a tad convoluted, but climbing out of the mess the sequels made will require a few concessions.

Hell, if Rey were revealed to be an actual Skywalker it'd even keep with the franchise's habit of making family members kiss!

[godisawesome]

I've actually got two "re-integration" ideas for how to fix the ST's assets:

1 - How do you fix Rey, fix Kylo, and get rid of the stench of Reylo?

Palpatine, driven a bit unhinged and desperate by the whole "dead then not" thing, used an ancient Sith technique that he wouldn't have if he were sane when he bonded them in TLJ, and that he'd used on Ben himself to corrupt him; it's a "parasitic Force Bond" designed to compromise and overwhelm a Jedi with the ego, self-obsession, and will of the dark sider... but the parasitic bond is two-way, and might give the dark sider an inconvenient conscience, or some of the light sider's desires as well.

While Palpatine effectively crushed Ben Solo's personality and remade it into a copy of his own, down to his sadism and arrogance, doing it again with Rey resulted in Kylo gaining a spine and relearning a desire for love form his family and his parents in particular... though it did serious damage to Rey as well, as she got consumed by Kylo's self-centeredness and pathetic lack of will, making her flit between her real personality and a flighty, inconstant Ben Solo devotee.

This resulted in the creation of the Dyad (and thus backfired on Palpatine even as he used it to power himself)... but also resulted in IMMENSE trauma for Rey - as in, she still has nightmares about not just Kylo, but her own unhesitating enabling and obsession with him, and so now she has to deal with some left over self-loathing that pops up occasionally, especially around Finn or whenever Han is mentioned, because she doesn't know what was done to her. It also means that in any flashback stories, Ben Solo has two modes - the meek, confused child with two loving parents, and a small monster with "too much (Palpatine) in him," before he finally amalgamates into the despicable scumbag we all hate.

So now Rey has to discover what was done to her, and she could even encounter Ben's Force Ghost and have them realize their connection is more shared trauma victims than anything else. Hell, you could even include Rey voicing her horror and disgust at having kissed him given their condition... and have Ben agree that wasn't love, but soem weird mix of his own self-obsession and her compassion being redirected towards him.

2 - How do you bring back the Skywalker family? Okay, this is a little bit afield, but... you first reveal that Rey didn't choose the Skywalker name herself, but out of a Force prompt from Luke or Leia that confuses her a bit. Then it turns out that using the name attracts the attention of some of Luke's old students/co-teachers who were lost off-screen... including a rough and tumble old Imperial spy named Mara Jade... who has a daughter... and who Rey forms a sisterly relationship with...

[Jokerz79]

Mostly you have to add things before and after the films.

Let's say that we learn that Luke did successfully train several new Jedi before going into exile, and those Jedi were off world when Ben turned to the dark side, looking for their own students to teach. Suddenly Luke's not such a failure as a teacher. Let's say part of why he went into exile wasn't just because of what happened with Ben, but because he realized he was training the new Jedi just like the old Jedi were trained (including him), and he was unintentionally setting the new Order up for the same flaws and failings that took down the previous one. Suddenly Luke isn't being a selfish jerk for leaving, he's making a noble sacrifice by removing his influence, allowing the new Jedi to grow beyond him and his legend.

Let's say that after the sequels, Finn begins training in the Force and helps rebuild a new Jedi Order. Makes up for a lot of his treatment in TLJ and TRoS right? Alternatively he could become a big, important general and military leader for the next government, if him becoming Jedi isn't to your tastes. Hell, do both!

Let's say that after the sequels, Rey never mentions Kylo again and begins a new adventure building the new Jedi along with Finn. All the toxic crap with Kylo still happened but it's never mentioned again outside of maybe a few jokes about Rey having bad taste in men.

And doing that with Luke, Finn, and Rey also gives you two different Jedi factions to play with, should anyone be interested: the orthodox Jedi who Luke trained and the new Jedi put together by Finn and Rey.

Do some flashbacks that flesh out Poe's relationship with Leia (TLJ set them up with a mentor/student dynamic that Fisher never got to delve into), and then have Poe help rebuild a new government in her honor and memory. Now the new New Republic is made in Leia's image, a worthwhile institution that makes Leia look great for being its inspiration, and it enriches Poe's story as he transitions from soldier to politician.

The Clone Wars show was able to salvage the awful prequel movies by adding stuff between film Episodes. The sequels are too squished together to do that but you have decades of unexplored history in either direction to work with, and the revelation of something happening in the past can provide new context and understanding to events in the sequels while stuff that happens after can course-correct them.

Hell you could even justify Rey claiming the Skywalker name by revealing her mother was somehow related to Anakin and Luke. An aunt or cousin or something. That adds some context to her connection to Kylo as well as her natural affinity for the Force, and genuinely puts the Skywalker bloodline back in play, rather than having someone from the rival family co-opt it undeservingly. Sure, that doesn't entirely make sense and it's a tad convoluted, but climbing out of the mess the sequels made will require a few concessions.

Hell, if Rey were revealed to be an actual Skywalker it'd even keep with the franchise's habit of making family members kiss!

While we haven't seen the finish line the idea Luke knew the Jedi would continue without him seeds are already planted thanks to Ahsoka and Grogu existing.

[Ascended]

While we haven't seen the finish line the idea Luke knew the Jedi would continue without him seeds are already planted thanks to Ahsoka and Grogu existing.

Well, to a point yeah. But Grogu chose Din and the Mandalorians over Luke and the Jedi and Ashoka still refuses to accept the mantle of Jedi. The seeds are there, you're right about that, but as it stands I don't think either of them will be creating a new Jedi Order. Though I do hold out some hope for Ashoka; it'd be fitting for her to be the one to put the next Order together, after the old one screwed her over.

I've actually got two "re-integration" ideas for how to fix the ST's assets:

1 - How do you fix Rey, fix Kylo, and get rid of the stench of Reylo?

That actually works pretty well. Explains the inconsistent directions and characterizations nicely and builds on what's already there like the Dyad. Usually I think it's best not to linger too long on the mistakes, bending over backwards to justify bad writing just puts a spotlight on how bad the writing was....but this here.....yeah, that could do a lot to help Rey's character recover, it gives her some pathos and some inner turmoil to contend with, and adds that extra layer of context to the story which helps rationalize things. I'd be down with this.

And I'd love to see Mara Jade show up. But with the way things are now, would it actually be satisfying? I fear that what we'd get wouldn't live up to the old canon and what we'd expect in our heads and end up disappointing us all.

I've considered the idea that Luke was gay, which helps explain why he never married or (far as we know) had kids. I think that'd score some nice diversity points and soften the loss of Mara Jade in his life but, more importantly, it'd be a nice nod to Mark Hamill. I dunno if fans would get behind the idea but it wouldn't bother me....

[godisawesome]

Well, to a point yeah. But Grogu chose Din and the Mandalorians over Luke and the Jedi and Ashoka still refuses to accept the mantle of Jedi. The seeds are there, you're right about that, but as it stands I don't think either of them will be creating a new Jedi Order. Though I do hold out some hope for Ashoka; it'd be fitting for her to be the one to put the next Order together, after the old one screwed her over.



That actually works pretty well. Explains the inconsistent directions and characterizations nicely and builds on what's already there like the Dyad. Usually I think it's best not to linger too long on the mistakes, bending over backwards to justify bad writing just puts a spotlight on how bad the writing was....but this here.....yeah, that could do a lot to help Rey's character recover, it gives her some pathos and some inner turmoil to contend with, and adds that extra layer of context to the story which helps rationalize things. I'd be down with this.

And I'd love to see Mara Jade show up. But with the way things are now, would it actually be satisfying? I fear that what we'd get wouldn't live up to the old canon and what we'd expect in our heads and end up disappointing us all.

I've considered the idea that Luke was gay, which helps explain why he never married or (far as we know) had kids. I think that'd score some nice diversity points and soften the loss of Mara Jade in his life but, more importantly, it'd be a nice nod to Mark Hamill. I dunno if fans would get behind the idea but it wouldn't bother me....

I honestly think that LFL should stop pretending that Ahsoka isn’t a Jedi and just admit that they’ve gone and broken what was already only a rule on a thin technicality anyhow. She looks like a Jedi, fights like a Jedi, thinks like a Jedi, pursues the cause of Justice and peace like a Jedi, needlessly enforces the Jedi Code like a Jedi , the Clones considered her a Jedi, the Inquisitors called her a Jedi, Bo-Katan and other Mandalorians call her a Jedi, her introduction to live action called her “The Jedi”….

Like, I get it; the only way Filoni could get Lucas to spare her in TCW was by having her leave the Order, then they had her insist she wasn’t a Jedi out of their fanatical devotion to a handful of lines from ANH… but it didn’t change a damn thing about her. With Grogu, they can at least say “Well… he turned down a lightsaber and chose Din because of the no attachements rule which doesn’t matter except when we want it to so he can’t be a Jedi… yet since we will inevitably make him a Jedi if we go forward enough but won’t say so until we have to.” But with Ahsoka, it’s just some nonsense that they sometimes remember she’s “not” for the sake of one line in a movie that they should just treat as uninformed hyperbole.

For Mara… I honestly just want to see her back, period, regardless of whether they make her Luke’s love interest again.

And I wouldn’t mind a gay Luke - but I still think he should then still have a romantic story just so they have *something* to tell about him story wise.

Too much of LFL’s current policy on Jedi is inaction based off paranoia about exposing either smart, allowable ways to contradict Lucas's original, outdated ideas or making it even more clear why TLJ sucked.

[Captain Craig]

If you would have told me 20 years ago anyone would consider the Prequels better than the original trilogy and that the Prequels was their Star Wars, I would have called you crazy.

But here we are a generation who grew up on them and that's their SW. One day the Sequels will get love.

The General Public doesn't care about this stuff and retcons films would just cause people to not invest in future films due to them being possible retconned themselves.

IMO the Old Republic is the best option for the future because you can do decades of stories and need never come close to the Skywalker Era.

This exactly. For all the intolerant "real fans" claiming THEY know SW and the therefore the ST is horrible and should be ignored are a large part of the same ones who once said as much about the PT.
Difference is the ST now has the OG trilogy and PT fans ganging up on it. The bolded part of the above statement is truest. I for one largely enjoyed the ST, some issues aside like the the Snoke storyline which was clearly altered with the Director changes I'd wager.

Sequel trilogy has its generation of fandom as well.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I rather just move on to the next era than bend over backwards trying to fix things.

Star Wars shouldn't fall into the DC reboot trap and leave well enough alone.

Just skip ahead 10-20 years and focus on Rey training the new Skywalkers (force users).

[ChrisIII]

Kind of curious if anybody's seen the new Willow series, and how Willow here compares to Luke (Warwick said he was in part inspired by Hammil in TLJ). Willow at least has some drive to train, but isn't too optimistic about the outcome; in a sense I guess he's a bit like Yoda when he first met Luke as an adult, rather than the *very* stubborn Luke.

[godisawesome]

This exactly. For all the intolerant "real fans" claiming THEY know SW and the therefore the ST is horrible and should be ignored are a large part of the same ones who once said as much about the PT.
Difference is the ST now has the OG trilogy and PT fans ganging up on it. The bolded part of the above statement is truest. I for one largely enjoyed the ST, some issues aside like the the Snoke storyline which was clearly altered with the Director changes I'd wager.

Sequel trilogy has its generation of fandom as well.

The problem with that is *WHAT* exactly is the ST? Who are the character and what are the relationships we should focus on?

Because I want the ST to resurge... but I recognize that, say, The Last Jedi is an incompatible film with The Force Awakens in terms of characterizations, strengths, and weaknesses, and that The Rise of Skywalker's best strength are incompatible with The Last Jedi and its biggest weaknesses are the ones faithfully serving The Last Jedi.

If the ST is seen and then reinforced as the story of Rey the hardened, empathetic survivor from Jakku and Finn the escaped slave soldier, bravely fighting against an entitled, loathsome and unworthy scion of the Solo family, then its going to be at its most successful.

...But if the ST is seen as the tragedy of Ben Solo, who's supporting enabler and objectified girlfriend allowed to live long enough to eventually get an obligatory redemption arc and all the stories should be about him or about Luke Skywalker being a sad white guy, than its going to remain a dead-end.

It's not so much a matter of "intolerance" of the ST by some fans - it's wars between incompatible interpretations and priorities about the ST that are ultimately "intolerant" to each other.

As long as LFL is dominated by Ben Solo and TLJ fans, they're going to be "intolerant" towards quality stories about Rey, Finn, Poe, the Galaxy, and interesting stories about Luke, because of the insecurity about Ben Solo being inferior to Finn, a cancer to Rey, and not as charismatic as Poe, and out of insecurity at Sad!Luke never being as popular or interesting as any more mature and less pretentious example.

There's a reason TFA broke records and had the vast super-majority of the fanbase interested and enthusiastic, and there's a reason why, by TROS, half that fanbase (and the overall audience) was gone, even the actors who'd been excited to win the roles and earn promotions to major characters (Boyega and Isaac) were vocally pissed off or apathetic, and why LFL themselves have little to no interest in the ST assets now:

The Last Jedi is a film (hopefully subconsciously) designed to "steal back" the Sequel trilogy away from Rey and Finn and give it to Luke and Ben... but it did so by killing off and neutering Luke and then either dooming Ben to dying in the next film or LFL having to admit they made a racist, sexist reactionary film.

Like, The Clone Wars could reinforce and make money off the PT because people knew what the PT was about. Right now, half of the ST's remaining fans get incensed by calling Reylo abusive and attack John Boyega with low-key racism while only valuing Rey as an ornament for Ben Solo they don't actually want to see more of now that he's dead, and the other half is pissed at that.

Fact of the matter is that Finn is the character with the most potential post-TROS, Rey is best served by utterly rejecting Reylo, and that coddling Ben Solo is a liability to telling good stories about Luke, Leia and Han between the OT and ST, so if they try to reject TLJ's malice, they can profit off the period...

...But admitting that TLJ had malice and sabotaged the period requires more humility than LFL has right now, even if its necessary to at least quietly admit within Lucasfilm that TLJ could and should be artistically contradicted and ignored for all the characters.

[superduperman]

If it were up to me, I'd retcon everything going back to 1983. No sequels, prequels, or "special additions". C-3PO was built in a factory like a normal droid. Bobba Fett is just some rando bounty hunter and not the basis of the clone wars. And Han shot first. If some creator wanted to come along and shoehorn some of the more popular characters in later on, I might allow it on a case by case basis. But for the most part, we're back to square one. But I also know they're not going to do that. They spent way too much money on the sequels and went to too much trouble to get the original cast back. There's no way they're going to undo this. Like I said, I think the best compromise is to say that the sequels were just one potential future and not carved in stone.

[ChrisIII]

It's kind of been done with Terminator....and of course, Superman Returns and there's been talk about applying it to ALIEN for years but it always fell through. But I think it wouldn't really work out on a film level with Star Wars.

[David Walton]

You could retcon TLJ by revealing that the Luke who isolated himself and later died was in fact a clone.

Rework C'Baoth's story a bit just like Thrawn being incorporated into the Disney canon.

[Jokerz79]

It's kind of been done with Terminator....and of course, Superman Returns and there's been talk about applying it to ALIEN for years but it always fell through. But I think it wouldn't really work out on a film level with Star Wars.

The most famous to do it IMO is Halloween which the film series has 5 timelines.

1: Halloween (1978), Halloween 2, Halloween 4, Halloween 5, and Halloween 6 (Which has 2 vastly different cuts of the film).

2: Halloween 3 (In which the 1978 Halloween is a fictional film).

3: Halloween (1978), Halloween 2, H2O, and Resurrection.

4: Rob Zombie's Halloween and Rob Zombie's Halloween 2.

5: Halloween (1978), Halloween (2018), Halloween Kills, and Halloween Ends.

But I seriously doubt Lucasfilms would ever do it.