The “New” History of the JSA: *New Golden Age SPOILERS*

[Dataweaver]

Don't forget the dark Multiverse is part of that Multiverses plural. The chart only has both Multiverse and Dark Multiverse on the Omniverse side.

I hope this works:

[CaptCleghorn]

Nope, what I said or meant is the writers stuck with the pre convergence origin for the 52 worlds. Stop twisting what people meant. Trolls do that my pal, so are you one?

There were no changes to the Multiverse structure and no new Earths either. None.

Perhaps you should develop some writing skills and become more understandable. If the 52 worlds were meant to be copies AT FIRST, did that ever change? If not, why would something be at first if it was the only reason?

You can deny Geoffcons or Johnscon, they were both used. Make sense you would deny terms conveniently.

I know what the search function told me here.

No story published after said the Infinite multiverse came back after the Convergence. The new Captain Carrot world already existed and was planned for the 52 orrery, before convergence attempted to retcon it into also being the pre crisis world.

And the number of worlds Convergence saved has never been stated. There have been theories that said it was the final five (1, 2, S, X, and 4) but seeing Earth 3 and the Captain Carrot earth on that page indicates it's more than the final five. 52 makes sense to me and Pariah brought back infinite worlds, 52 isn't even a drop in the bucket. I will gladly agree that Convergence did not bring back infinite universes (or timelines). It brought back some.

Only 1 infinite Multiverse in the ominverse. And Pariah brought all those worlds and more back reality wise, with nothing to do with convergence or timelines.

So is there a difference between the infinite Multiverse and the Omniverse? If not this sounds a lot like two different names for the same thing. As for Pariah and DCOIE, there's nothing there that disagrees with anything Convergence said. Convergence handled the time between COIE and 52.

[D.Z]

I am not from America or UK. I guess I could switch over to formal english over time or whatever you meant.

We are gonna have to agree to disagree about some parts about Convergence and move on.

The Multiverses (positive and dark) are on the Omniverse side, Geoff decided to keep the Omniverse term as the generic reality side where both of the (Positive and Dark) Multiverses are stored.

[Digifiend]

True. They pretty much just pretended that Convergence never happened. Superman Reborn went so far as to rewrite Superman's timeline so that Jon wasn't conceived and born during Convergence, and so that Superman: Lois and Clark happened on Earth 0 without any world-hopping or time-traveling shenanigans. This, in turn, inserted a full decade into the timeline (not the “missing decade” referenced in DCU Rebirth; an additional decade that hasn't been there before) which plays holy hell on the timeline of the modern age of superheroes.

Yeah, it's a right mess. Jon Kent's origin is completely incompatible with Young Justice and Superboy. Conner did not debut 10 years ago in-universe (if he did, then Tim Drake should be in his mid 20s), yet he debuted before Jon was born.

[Dataweaver]

And the number of worlds Convergence saved has never been stated. There have been theories that said it was the final five (1, 2, S, X, and 4) but seeing Earth 3 and the Captain Carrot earth on that page indicates it's more than the final five. 52 makes sense to me and Pariah brought back infinite worlds, 52 isn't even a drop in the bucket. I will gladly agree that Convergence did not bring back infinite universes (or timelines). It brought back some.

I remember asking about this during Infinite Crisis: if the post-Crisis Earth is a combination of Earths 1, 2, 4, S, and X, why was Alex Luthor able to summon other Earths? I was told that the battle at the Dawn of Time (CoIE#10) retroactively collapsed every world of the Multiverse into the post-Crisis Earth, including those that would eventually be destroyed by the Anti-Monitor.

If Conference changed anything, the only thing it changed was the explanation as to where Alex Luthor found his Infinite Earths; and even that is just a fan theory designed to salvage the ending of Convergence. Because as written, D.Z. is right: after Convergence ended, its supposed changes to the Multiverse were completely ignored.

So is there a difference between the infinite Multiverse and the Omniverse? If not this sounds a lot like two different names for the same thing.

“Omniverse” and “Infinite Multiverse” are very similar, but not quite the same. Specifically, “Infinite” isn't the same as “Everything”. You can have an infinite number of variations on the DC Universe and not have a single Marvel Universe in the mix, let alone universes based on other properties like Star Wars or Aliens or the Lord of the Rings. I'm a mathematician, so I tend to think of it in terms of numbers: you can have an infinite set of even numbers and not have a single odd number anywhere. That's an Infinite Multiverse. And because an Infinite Multiverse doesn't necessarily have everything, it's possible to have multiple Infinite Multiverses. The post-DCOIE Omniverse has at least two: the Infinite Earths, and the Dark Multiverse. As well, the presence of an Infinite Multiverse doesn't preclude the existence of a finite Multiverse, like the Orrery of Worlds or Planetary's Snowflake (or both), or even of individual worlds existing separately: the current Milestone Universe could in theory be one of those. The Antimatter Universe is another. Oh: and notice the Sphere of the Gods? That's something else that exists outside of an Infinite Multiverse.

By contrast, the Omniverse is, by definition, everything in Space. It's “the totality of all parallel worlds and the multiverses that contain them”, as Mr. Terrific puts it. “Omniverse” is more expansive than “Infinite Multiverse”.

It just doesn't include alternate timelines.

As for Pariah and DCOIE, there's nothing there that disagrees with anything Convergence said. Convergence handled the time between COIE and 52.

In the central timeline, there were no other worlds in the time between CoIE and IC. Convergence didn't change that; it just created a different timeline where there were.

[CaptCleghorn]

I am not from America or UK. I guess I could switch over to formal english over time or whatever you meant.

We are gonna have to agree to disagree about some parts about Convergence and move on.

The Multiverses (positive and dark) are on the Omniverse side, Geoff decided to keep the Omniverse term as the generic reality side where both of the (Positive and Dark) Multiverses are stored.

I had asked if English was your native language earlier. I had thought your language was awkward and that is sometimes the case with people who do not have England as their first language. Knowing this, I will make sure I have a better idea of what you mean before I respond.

Dataweaver and I have gone on with many details about Convergence. It is a very messy situation.

I am not familiar with Scott Snyder's multiverse stories and the whole Dark Multiverse concept is one I can not speak of. It isn't something I wanted to get into when it happened. But I can see positive and dark multiverses. Multi meaning more than one tells me that includes a lot of universes while Omni means everything and I take that to be an overall group.

[CaptCleghorn]

I remember asking about this during Infinite Crisis: if the post-Crisis Earth is a combination of Earths 1, 2, 4, S, and X, why was Alex Luthor able to summon other Earths? I was told that the battle at the Dawn of Time (CoIE#10) retroactively collapsed every world of the Multiverse into the post-Crisis Earth, including those that would eventually be destroyed by the Anti-Monitor.

If Conference changed anything, the only thing it changed was the explanation as to where Alex Luthor found his Infinite Earths; and even that is just a fan theory designed to salvage the ending of Convergence. Because as written, D.Z. is right: after Convergence ended, its supposed changes to the Multiverse were completely ignored.

I can't and won't argue that Convergence wasn't ignored.

“Omniverse” and “Infinite Multiverse” are very similar, but not quite the same. Specifically, “Infinite” isn't the same as “Everything”. You can have an infinite number of variations on the DC Universe and not have a single Marvel Universe in the mix, let alone universes based on other properties like Star Wars or Aliens or the Lord of the Rings. I'm a mathematician, so I tend to think of it in terms of numbers: you can have an infinite set of even numbers and not have a single odd number anywhere. That's an Infinite Multiverse. And because an Infinite Multiverse doesn't necessarily have everything, it's possible to have multiple Infinite Multiverses. The post-DCOIE Omniverse has at least two: the Infinite Earths, and the Dark Multiverse. As well, the presence of an Infinite Multiverse doesn't preclude the existence of a finite Multiverse, like the Orrery of Worlds or Planetary's Snowflake (or both), or even of individual worlds existing separately: the current Milestone Universe could in theory be one of those. The Antimatter Universe is another. Oh: and notice the Sphere of the Gods? That's something else that exists outside of an Infinite Multiverse.

By contrast, the Omniverse is, by definition, everything in Space. It's “the totality of all parallel worlds and the multiverses that contain them”, as Mr. Terrific puts it. “Omniverse” is more expansive than “Infinite Multiverse”.

It just doesn't include alternate timelines.

Semantics. Yuck.

In the central timeline, there were no other worlds in the time between CoIE and IC. Convergence didn't change that; it just created a different timeline where there were.

I get that. It's ugly, but if that's the definition DC wants to use, I gotta go with it.

[SiegePerilous02]

I was thinking...
So... I think the best take is that Wonder Woman has been Is active since World War II. And I think after listening to this thread the real answer is she's unable to change things in the way that she intended because her greatest villain Should essentially be Vandal Savage.

The more I think about it the more the ideas that's in that what she came to do was in opposition of what he came to do.

It also gives Her a Luther who she's not allowed to just kill. The 2nd she joined man's world he starts moving behind the scenes against her at all times kind of like the comic book the planetary if you're familiar with it.

It also gives something really interesting... Tales of Wonder Woman. Where was Wonder Woman during XY and Z. It all happened it just happened off screen. The world of man is best, And I could easily see her writing wrongs in other parts of the world that aren't just In the united states.

Vandal savage would be good because he kind of would hate the gods and their ilk... Progeny... I mean hes been around to see what that gets you. I have a feeling that it would also be a good descriptor for why she's so stabby. She's very long lived and the world hasn't just started marching to her tune yet. That's very frustrating. Steve Trevor dying and being brought back is nothing, Orpheus in the Underworld It's not unheard of in myth, so how about this: She pissed off Hades and so Steve Trevor is cursed. Cursed with reincarnation. Until she lays down her swords he will always be there to taunt her with true loveThen die like Mina in Dracula. Shrug Immortal superhuman stories kind of write themselves

Tying Vandal to her would be another example of connecting a JSA-adjacent villain to Wonder Woman to give the JSA IP a boost from associating with her.

If we want to give her an arch nemesis she can't straight up kill who is also immortal, Circe, Ares and Hercules come from her corner already and fit the bill better than the poor man's Ra's al Ghul.

I mostly agree with this; but I stop short of that final assertion. Wonder Woman is no more capable of singlehandedly ending WWII than Superman is.

IDK, I think Morrison's Earth One showed that if Diana and the Amazons get fed up with us and stop holding back, they could single handedly conquer the world (for better or worse). Especially if no other superheroes are around.

And that's just Wonder Woman by herself. If Superman were to be around with her, WWII ends much earlier.

[Midnight_v]

Your idea of WW is the generic warrior angry type. Not a good look. Also enough with sword and shield. With her Godly powers and classic gear, she should end war world 2 by herself easily.

No one has a good idea of what she's supposed to be everyone just talks about what they don't want her to be. That's A big part of the problem.

Also a couple of people mock the idea of vandal savage being her enemy but her enemies are literal garbage.

Cat woman. Chetarah... whatever.Guy with giant head who hates women... She has no enemies worth stealing... Circe is generic "EVIL" Dark magic girl.

Ares is actually worth a damn but He can only be a villain of the week so often. So I'm not sure what you guys want other than to say no not that

[Dataweaver]

IDK, I think Morrison's Earth One showed that if Diana and the Amazons get fed up with us and stop holding back, they could single handedly conquer the world (for better or worse). Especially if no other superheroes are around.

And that's just Wonder Woman by herself. If Superman were to be around with her, WWII ends much earlier.

That's not really a disagreement. “Realistically”, someone with the power of Superman or Wonder Woman could have ended WWII. In general, they don't; because that's not the sort of stories that superhero comics usually tell Frankly, the only title I've ever seen where the “superheroes” decided to take matters into their own hands like that was The Authority.

It isn't a slight on Diana that she didn't.

[SiegePerilous02]

That's not really a disagreement. “Realistically”, someone with the power of Superman or Wonder Woman could have ended WWII. In general, they don't; because that's not the sort of stories that superhero comics usually tell Frankly, the only title I've ever seen where the “superheroes” decided to take matters into their own hands like that was The Authority.

It isn't a slight on Diana that she didn't.

I agree Diana going full Authority is a bad and non-workable idea.

But if she's been around since WWII, she should still have a bigger positive impact on the world than we actually see in the DC universe, even if happens more gradually. She was charged by the Amazons and her Gods to help change our world for the better. It pretty much is a slight on her that there is no big impact on how the world runs whenever the vague modern age of superheroes starts. And of course her impact can't be too big because it would be upstaged by Superman's arrival, and he will become the figurehead of the modern generation of superheroes over her.

So they inevitably have to come up with some lame reasoning for why she didn't do anything substantial between WWII and now, with going back to live on Themyscira being the most OOC one.

[WonderLight789]

No one has a good idea of what she's supposed to be everyone just talks about what they don't want her to be. That's A big part of the problem.

Also a couple of people mock the idea of vandal savage being her enemy but her enemies are literal garbage.

Cat woman. Chetarah... whatever.Guy with giant head who hates women... She has no enemies worth stealing... Circe is generic "EVIL" Dark magic girl.

Ares is actually worth a damn but He can only be a villain of the week so often. So I'm not sure what you guys want other than to say no not that

Correction. There is a clear idea of what she is supposed to be. A rival of superman in power. A leader, a sister, an ambassador. A warrior of peace, somebody who stands for truth. But DC reduced her to generic material. Because they don't want a girl to upstage batman or superman.

Her villains can't be treated right and used in a meaningful way, if WW herself is treated like garbage by DC. So what did you expect? I would take a villain like Cheetah, over a horny kleptomaniac like catwoman any day of the weak. When DC and WB stop being sexist and suffering from homophobia. WW will be able to shine more. So basically. She needs to get out of that trashy label.

[Psy-lock]

No one has a good idea of what she's supposed to be everyone just talks about what they don't want her to be. That's A big part of the problem.

Also a couple of people mock the idea of vandal savage being her enemy but her enemies are literal garbage.

Cat woman. Chetarah... whatever.Guy with giant head who hates women... She has no enemies worth stealing... Circe is generic "EVIL" Dark magic girl.

Ares is actually worth a damn but He can only be a villain of the week so often. So I'm not sure what you guys want other than to say no not that

Wrong, her fans want her to be the way she's portrayed by writers who actually like and get her character (Marston, Perez, Jimenez, Rucka, Heinberg, Simone, Orlando). And no, her villains are not garbage. She has one of the best and most diverse Rogues Galleries out there. But you have to actually read her book to know that

[Agent Z]

Tying Vandal to her would be another example of connecting a JSA-adjacent villain to Wonder Woman to give the JSA IP a boost from associating with her.

If we want to give her an arch nemesis she can't straight up kill who is also immortal, Circe, Ares and Hercules come from her corner already and fit the bill better than the poor man's Ra's al Ghul.

I should point out that Vandal predates Ra's both in and out of universe.

[wonder39]

Diana being in the JSA could lead to things like Fury being her and Steve's daughter again and rescuing Donna from the fire. But also has the drawback of Steve being dead by the modern age, so they have to jump through hoops to de-age him or revive him if they want to use him, and it doesn't line up with any previous continuity where he is always around in some form. And the even bigger issue is why Wonder Woman doesn't have a big impact on the world if she's been around so long, or having her be ooc by leaving for several decades before returning for the modern age of heroes. Most of her golden age villains can debut in the modern age no problem. It might be neat to have Priscilla Rich and Paula von Gunther back in their original contexts, but even that isn't necessary since a lot of their traits were folded into Barbara Minerva and Veronica Cale respectively. Diana can't also have the naive "fish out of water" elements of her early modern adventures if she's been active in our world since WWII and has a grown daughter

Just having Power Girl and Fury be time travelers like Helena is shaping up to be and arrived to join the JSA in the Bronze age equivalent in the timeline might be easier?

You can also have that with the restoration of the proper Multiverse, and it's explanation of expansion in Doomsday Clock. But that was too easy for DC, and they had to screw with and complicate things beyond complication....