The “New” History of the JSA: *New Golden Age SPOILERS*

[Dataweaver]

I don't know of any retellings of Crisis from a post Crisis single universe perspective. If Dark Crisis does bring back the infinite multiverse, then does a single universe version of COIE even matter? First there were infinite universes then there weren't, then there were again. With all the "everything happened" statuses and characters supposedly knowing their past histories can we even be sure anyone knows or doesn't know there used to be an infinite number of universes?

I could be like that guy in the meme gesturing wildly with many notes pinned behind him with connecting string, but the more effort I put into it, the more I prefer a simple explanation.

As I said a couple of my posts back, JLA Incarnations #5 came really close to retelling Crisis from a single Earth post-Crisis perspective. More generally, the main reason I bring it up is that it can be used to resolve the New Golden Age timeline for the JSA and related characters, without having to delve into creating some new event to explain a time skip for the All-Star Squadron and related characters. (Would it be easier to just restore the JSA's Earth 2 origins? Yes; but that ship has already sailed where the New Golden Age timeline is concerned.)

That said, I'm not arguing that CoIE should be recast solely in terms of a single Earth and a single timeline; I'm fine with, say, Earth 3, Earth 6, Earth D, and Earth X still being treated as separate Earths in the revised take on the Crisis. I'm just saying that a remarkably large amount of it can be recast as different eras instead of different worlds, and that there's precedent for doing so.

[Dataweaver]

Also, this can be presented in a simple way; I've largely been coming across as the meme you cite because I've been attempting to provide supporting evidence for my case. But the essence of my case could be summed up in two or three panels: the first showing Barry and Jay's first meeting, with a caption talking about how Barry accidentally traveled back to 1961 and met Jay there, and in the process created an entanglement between the two eras; maybe include a panel showing the first encounter between the JLA and JSA, with a caption saying that that entanglement lead to several subsequent crossings between the two eras; and then end with a panel featuring the aftermath of CoIE, specifically showing the New Titans and Infinity Inc together, with a caption saying that the Crisis broke that entanglement, but pulled those who had become entangled into the 21st century. The rest doesn't need to be said.

[Cat]

I don't know of any retellings of Crisis from a post Crisis single universe perspective. If Dark Crisis does bring back the infinite multiverse, then does a single universe version of COIE even matter? First there were infinite universes then there weren't, then there were again. With all the "everything happened" statuses and characters supposedly knowing their past histories can we even be sure anyone knows or doesn't know there used to be an infinite number of universes?

I could be like that guy in the meme gesturing wildly with many notes pinned behind him with connecting string, but the more effort I put into it, the more I prefer a simple explanation.

It's been ages since I read it, but didn't Roy Thomas' DC Universe Legacies maxiseries touch on this?

[CaptCleghorn]

Also, this can be presented in a simple way; I've largely been coming across as the meme you cite because I've been attempting to provide supporting evidence for my case. But the essence of my case could be summed up in two or three panels: the first showing Barry and Jay's first meeting, with a caption talking about how Barry accidentally traveled back to 1961 and met Jay there, and in the process created an entanglement between the two eras; maybe include a panel showing the first encounter between the JLA and JSA, with a caption saying that that entanglement lead to several subsequent crossings between the two eras; and then end with a panel featuring the aftermath of CoIE, specifically showing the New Titans and Infinity Inc together, with a caption saying that the Crisis broke that entanglement, but pulled those who had become entangled into the 21st century. The rest doesn't need to be said.

Wouldn't any 21st century American hero going back to 1961 drop a few hints about future events? Something like a "Jack, rethink that convertible in Dallas."

But there is a beauty to having the JSA timetable go from 1940-1985 and present day Sliding Timeline COIE to the present. Years can be shaved off their ages making them older, but far from infirm and capable of detective work and planning, if not fisticuffs. This would fit characters like Sandman, Atom, etc. although they have fallen off the map and probably have seen their last days outside of flashbacks.

[achilles]

I've been quite ill in hospital for a bit, and don't have much clue as to what this is all about, and specifically what role PG plays in it, could someone fill me in? Sorry, I'm still quite sick and a bit too tired to read through the whole thread.

[Dataweaver]

It's been ages since I read it, but didn't Roy Thomas' DC Universe Legacies maxiseries touch on this?

Briefly, in issue #5. Note, however, that this was a 2010 series; so while the viewpoint character is not aware of alternate universes, and the story focuses entirely on the events of CoIE #12, it still includes the inclusion of “some heroes that nobody has ever seen before”.

Wouldn't any 21st century American hero going back to 1961 drop a few hints about future events? Something like a "Jack, rethink that convertible in Dallas."

As I said, the simplest solution would be the one that's off the table, simply putting Earth 2 back — although if we did that and kept the notion of Earth 2 bring set in the 20th century, this particular issue would still be an issue. If anything, having them set in the actual past of Earth 0 allows time travelers to warn the JLA to tread lightly when dealing with the pre-Crisis JSA, because tampering with history, even with the noblest of intentions, can lead to disaster. If they were actually on separate Earths, that wouldn't be a concern.

But there is a beauty to having the JSA timetable go from 1940-1985 and present day Sliding Timeline COIE to the present. Years can be shaved off their ages making them older, but far from infirm and capable of detective work and planning, if not fisticuffs. This would fit characters like Sandman, Atom, etc. although they have fallen off the map and probably have seen their last days outside of flashbacks.

I'm pretty sure they're sticking with Atom dying of enforced old age in Zero Hour, and Wesley Dodds sacrificing himself to bring back the JSA (i.e., the post-ZH JSA). That said, we haven't seen Sand or Atom Smasher recently.

[D.Z]

I wouldn't mind new stand-ins based on Earth 1, 4, X, S, characters during the TNGA Earth 0 Crisis. I suspect Geoff might just have only the JSA, Infinity Inc, Freedom Fighters and whatever Earth 2 based teams during the Crisis.

I expect Johns to use time travelling to the past Extant for Zero Hour, some of Johns recent works mentioned Extant over Parallax as the main bad guy behind Zero Hour. See Doomsday Clock and Flashpoint Beyond.

All the other Crises are on the sliding timescale.

[Dataweaver]

I've been quite ill in hospital for a bit, and don't have much clue as to what this is all about, and specifically what role PG plays in it, could someone fill me in? Sorry, I'm still quite sick and a bit too tired to read through the whole thread.

In short, we just got a new comic called the New Golden Age, spinning out of Flashpoint Beyond and serving as a springboard for several new series including Stargirl and Justice Society of America. We're getting a new timeline for the DCU, as explained in the first post; and the rest of the thread is dedicated to critiquing that timeline or speculating on what it may end up looking like once the whole thing has been revealed.

[Jon Clark]

I've been quite ill in hospital for a bit, and don't have much clue as to what this is all about, and specifically what role PG plays in it, could someone fill me in? Sorry, I'm still quite sick and a bit too tired to read through the whole thread.

The New Golden Age deals with Per Degaton attacking the JSA and their legacy through time. The story shows the JSA at various points in their history and one of the scenes is during Power Girl's early days. The scene is literally based on a published adventure less than 12 issues from her debut. The story dates this as 1976 (when the story was published) which makes it nearly 50 years ago- while in current DC continuity the "Silver Age heroes" (JLA, Titans) haven't been around that long. So now the question is if PG was part of the JSA in 1976 and Superman didn't debut until say 2002 (twenty years to allow for his son) does that undercut Superman's significance in that histoy?

[Dataweaver]

The New Golden Age deals with Per Degaton attacking the JSA and their legacy through time. The story shows the JSA at various points in their history and one of the scenes is during Power Girl's early days. The scene is literally based on a published adventure less than 12 issues from her debut. The story dates this as 1976 (when the story was published) which makes it nearly 50 years ago- while in current DC continuity the "Silver Age heroes" (JLA, Titans) haven't been around that long. So now the question is if PG was part of the JSA in 1976 and Superman didn't debut until say 2002 (twenty years to allow for his son) does that undercut Superman's significance in that histoy?

Frankly, the biggest thing to undercut Superman's significance in history would be if the JSA has remained active right up to his debut. It's another reason I favor a time skip, abruptly ending the JSA nearly two decades (and counting) before Superman's debut: while people won't have forgotten about superheroes, many will be viewing them with nostalgia as elements of a bygone age; and a whole generation will have grown knowing only the stories their parents tell them. That lets Superman's debut have the energy of a rebirth of the heroes.

[achilles]

The New Golden Age deals with Per Degaton attacking the JSA and their legacy through time. The story shows the JSA at various points in their history and one of the scenes is during Power Girl's early days. The scene is literally based on a published adventure less than 12 issues from her debut. The story dates this as 1976 (when the story was published) which makes it nearly 50 years ago- while in current DC continuity the "Silver Age heroes" (JLA, Titans) haven't been around that long. So now the question is if PG was part of the JSA in 1976 and Superman didn't debut until say 2002 (twenty years to allow for his son) does that undercut Superman's significance in that histoy?

Oh dear. I'm not if favor of PG being before Superman on Earth. Though in the few future stories she's been in she doesn't seem to age much at all, so that isn't a problem, but I have many other problems with it.

[astro@work]

There definitely needs to be a time break between the JSA (now including the Super Squad years) and the modern age of heroes starting with the debut of Superman.

But I don't mind the earlier debut of Power Girl, for the simple reason that she is called POWER Girl, not SUPER Girl.
She is not usurping the title, based on a different name (even if she self-identifies as a misplaced alternate Earth cousin of "a" Superman).

For me, the more troubling piece is that "The Flash of Two Worlds Story", which brought Flash and later the JSA out of retirement, can't occur until Barry Allen is also in business.
Similarly, almost all of the Silver Age adventures of the JSA occurred in crossovers with the JLA. Did these now not happen at all, happen later (sequentially after the Super Squad years and the debut of Superman), or happen in the 60's/70's between an Earth Zero JSA and an alternate world Earth-One ("Silver Age" Earth) JLA that was not the actual JLA we know. Lots of questions here.

Also up for grabs is WHEN did the Infinity, Inc. kids become active? Was this now back in the 80's, or did it occur much later during the sliding timeline? Seems like that piece would be better left alone, and occur during the sliding timeline.

[Dataweaver]

There definitely needs to be a time break between the JSA (now including the Super Squad years) and the modern age of heroes starting with the debut of Superman.

But I don't mind the earlier debut of Power Girl, for the simple reason that she is called POWER Girl, not SUPER Girl.
She is not usurping the title, based on a different name (even if she self-identifies as a misplaced alternate Earth cousin of "a" Superman).

For me, the more troubling piece is that "The Flash of Two Worlds Story", which brought Flash and later the JSA out of retirement, can't occur until Barry Allen is also in business.
Similarly, almost all of the Silver Age adventures of the JSA occurred in crossovers with the JLA. Did these now not happen at all, happen later (sequentially after the Super Squad years and the debut of Superman), or happen in the 60's/70's between an Earth Zero JSA and an alternate world Earth-One ("Silver Age" Earth) JLA that was not the actual JLA we know. Lots of questions here.

Also up for grabs is WHEN did the Infinity, Inc. kids become active? Was this now back in the 80's, or did it occur much later during the sliding timeline? Seems like that piece would be better left alone, and occur during the sliding timeline.

My head-canon, until further details are applied, is that everything from Flash of Two Worlds up through Crisis on Infinite Earths replaces the Earth 1/Earth 2 crossing with time travel between the 20th and 21st centuries. As for Infinity Inc, they're mentioned in the bio for Harlequin's Son, indicating that he was invited to join them before the Crisis on Infinite Earths. I'd place their debut in 1984 for the same reason PG's debut is in 1976: 1984 is when the Infinity Inc title launched. Then they, along with all of the other heroes, villains, and supporting cast of the 20th century, found themselves time-skipped to the early 21st century by the First Crisis.

Again, none of this is confirmed. But short of putting the JSA back on Earth 2, it seems to be the simplest solution with the least amount of unintended consequences. (The problem with having Infinity Inc debut in the sliding timeline is that you then have to explain how they can be the kids of the JSA.)

[D.Z]

PowerGirl only shares powers and red cape in public.

If they move the Crisis to 1985, then I think Zero Hour is in the 90's with 90's JSA. Or maybe Zero Hour is still in the Sliding timescale. Dunno yet.

The new timeline is gonna affect how some stories were, if Johns is going ahead with the real time until sliding time scale for the Earth 2 characters on Earth 0.

[Dataweaver]

PowerGirl only shares powers and red cape in public.

If they move the Crisis to 1985, then I think Zero Hour is in the 90's with 90's JSA. Or maybe Zero Hour is still in the Sliding timescale. Dunno yet.

The new timeline is gonna affect how some stories were, if Johns is going ahead with the real time until sliding time scale for the Earth 2 characters on Earth 0.

If Johns chooses to place the Crisis entirely in 1985 (as opposed to splitting it between 1985 and the sliding time scale), he's going to have a lot more ramifications to deal with. Not the least of which is that not one of the “silver age heroes” would even have been born in 1985. Well, except for the immortal ones, like Wonder Woman.

Or there's no floating timeline, and the “now” in the DCU is in fact still around the year 2000, as per the aborted “five generations” timeline. But that opens a whole other can of worms.

Again, bridging the First Crisis between 1985 and the floating timescale is the cleanest solution available that fits the facts presented thus far. We'll see if Johns agrees.