The “New” History of the JSA: *New Golden Age SPOILERS*

**bat39** · 12-02-2022, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Dataweaver

Bear in mind that by the time Power Girl showed up in 1976, the JSA had been teaming up with the JLA for over a decade; which meant that they were already potentially familiar with Kryptonians from hearing about them from the 21st century Superman. So the suspicion that she might be Kryptonian could start as early as 1976. Canonically, the Atlantean theory was introduced right after the Crisis; and if that's to be kept, I'd keep it right there.

Frankly, the likes said about her history between the Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis, the better; those were not good years for her.

Yeah, as per your time-travel theory for the JLA/JSA team-ups that works. Not fully sure I buy into it at this moment, but it's an interesting theory no doubt!

Incidentially, there's one thing you need to keep in mind with regards to your theory - the flashback of Dr. Fate encountering Catwoman '13 years ago'. So Johns' intention seems to be that Dr. Fate, at least, was already active in the 'modern' era during Year One!

Now, I think its just possible that 13 years ago was actually Year Four rather than Year One (assuming that Bruce became Batman 16 years ago, and not 13 and that the use of a Year One panel was just a visual reference), but even so...is Dr. Fate being around 13 years ago mean that the rest of the JSA was already around? According to your theory, either he'd have time-traveled to the future, or he'd have been dropped in the future permanently after COIE. Unless you go with the idea that Fate, being simply immortal, have lived out the last several decades that the JSA somehow skipped over.

**Dataweaver** · 12-02-2022, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by bat39

Yeah, as per your time-travel theory for the JLA/JSA team-ups that works. Not fully sure I buy into it at this moment, but it's an interesting theory no doubt!

Incidentially, there's one thing you need to keep in mind with regards to your theory - the flashback of Dr. Fate encountering Catwoman '13 years ago'. So Johns' intention seems to be that Dr. Fate, at least, was already active in the 'modern' era during Year One!

Now, I think its just possible that 13 years ago was actually Year Fou rather than Year One (assuming that Bruce became Batman 16 years ago, and not 13 and that the use of a Year One panel was just a visual reference), but even so...is Dr. Fate being around 13 years ago mean that the rest of the JSA was already around? According to your theory, either he'd have time-traveled to the future, or he'd have been dropped in the future permanently after COIE. Unless you go with the idea that Fate, being simply immortal, have lived out the last several decades that the JSA somehow skipped over.

Good point. I'll have to think about that some more.

**D.Z** · 12-02-2022, 04:03 PM

It's possible Ragnarok was dropped. Or huge gap inactivity or decades of stories now.

**bat39** · 12-02-2022, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by D.Z

It's possible Ragnarok was dropped. Or huge gap inactivity or decades of stories now.

True.

Let's break down the possibilities:

1. A massive time-jump from 1985 to some point during the JLA era on the sliding timescale. Could be COIE or Ragnarok or something else. The basic idea is that the JSA vanished for an ever-growing X years/decades, and were then reintegrated into the contemporary DCU at some point (in a way, pretty much what happened to the Seven Soldiers of Victory in the classic 70's story).

2. The JSA has been active for the last several decades.

The problem with Option 2 is that it means that the JSA is a) getting older all the time, and b) the gap between the JSA and JLA eras is increasingly growing, which means that you need to add an ever-increasing amount of new backstory/history for the team, which also leads to c) the legacy characters are either growing older as well, or you have to keep adding new 'intermediate' legacies in the middle (for e.g. Black Canary - Dinah Lance will need to become Dinah Drake's granddaughter, or even great-granddaughter, at some point).

Option 1 also has some issues but it's a relatively cleaner option.

(I started on a numbered list thinking there'd be a whole bunch of options, but then I realized there are basically really only two

).

**Dataweaver** · 12-03-2022, 12:05 AM

3. A mixture of 1 and 2. As with 1, the bulk of the JSA and related characters are time-skipped forward at some point from the 20th century to the 21st century. (I still say that the Crisis on Infinite Earths is the most natural way to do this, both because it kinda did something similar already and because it can easily be used to jusify time-skipping anyone from 1985 to “ten years ago”, not just the capes; but me saying it doesn't make it so.) But not all of them are time-skipped; and the ones that aren't continue to live through the intervening years, adding an ever-increasing amount of new history in the gap. Just for basic sanity, I'd limit the “left-behinds” to JSAers who don't age and/or have a way to rejuvinate (I'm looking at you, Hawkman), and/or Golden Agers whose legacies aren't directly connected to them (Mr. Terrific or Dr. Mid-Nite; possibly Wildcat).

Adding layers of history to the team isn't a bad idea; and it's in keeping with the way the New Golden Age has been adding characters to history.

The advantage of this approach is that it keeps the benefits of the time-skip where that would be most beneficial (such as skipping the Infinitors forward to keep them sufficiently youthful, instead of forcing them to now be approaching retirement age), while giving the writers the freedom to create new story material in the gap. I wouldn't want the exact lineup of the “90s throwback” cover as a new 90s-era JSA, as it would force massive rewrites of character histories that I'd rather not see rewritten (e.g., Jack Knight's Starman); but the idea is sound.

The downside of this approach is that it's messy: who time-skipped and who didn't? And that extra history is only an upside if you can use it: having a JSA operating in the 90s does nothing useful unless they have actual adventures with consequences. If they only exist on a splash page saying “oh, by the way, these guys existed”, then there's little point to having them.

**Factor** · 12-03-2022, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by Dataweaver

3. A mixture of 1 and 2. As with 1, the bulk of the JSA and related characters are time-skipped forward at some point from the 20th century to the 21st century. (I still say that the Crisis on Infinite Earths is the most natural way to do this, both because it kinda did something similar already and because it can easily be used to jusify time-skipping anyone from 1985 to “ten years ago”, not just the capes; but me saying it doesn't make it so.) But not all of them are time-skipped; and the ones that aren't continue to live through the intervening years, adding an ever-increasing amount of new history in the gap. Just for basic sanity, I'd limit the “left-behinds” to JSAers who don't age and/or have a way to rejuvinate (I'm looking at you, Hawkman), and/or Golden Agers whose legacies aren't directly connected to them (Mr. Terrific or Dr. Mid-Nite; possibly Wildcat).

Adding layers of history to the team isn't a bad idea; and it's in keeping with the way the New Golden Age has been adding characters to history.

The advantage of this approach is that it keeps the benefits of the time-skip where that would be most beneficial (such as skipping the Infinitors forward to keep them sufficiently youthful, instead of forcing them to now be approaching retirement age), while giving the writers the freedom to create new story material in the gap. I wouldn't want the exact lineup of the “90s throwback” cover as a new 90s-era JSA, as it would force massive rewrites of character histories that I'd rather not see rewritten (e.g., Jack Knight's Starman); but the idea is sound.

The downside of this approach is that it's messy: who time-skipped and who didn't? And that extra history is only an upside if you can use it: having a JSA operating in the 90s does nothing useful unless they have actual adventures with consequences. If they only exist on a splash page saying “oh, by the way, these guys existed”, then there's little point to having them.

I love the idea of using COIE to time-skip the relevant characters (older JSAers still active in the present + those that have direct legacies like OG Hour Man, Starman etc), plus their families when needed.
But I wouldn’t have the ones left behind form another iteration of the team. I’d use that as Earth-0’s excuse for the JSA’s retirement: most of the big ones were gone and the ones that were left were too struck by their disappearances that they decided to disband the JSA for good. Of course that would still leave space for “lost years” stories featuring the POV of characters left behind, like Hawkman/Hawkwoman, who would still be somewhat active behind the scenes, age and eventually die, giving way for their rebirths in Thanagar.
I’d establish that as the years went by, superheroes started to be forgotten, becoming almost like legends. Some would even doubt they even existed, creating conspiracy theories surrounding their reported histories.
So by the time Superman debuts, it’s truly the dawn of a new age.

**Dataweaver** · 12-03-2022, 02:47 AM

It's difficult to forget 45 years of history in 20 years (the current gap between 1985 and Superman's debut). Bear in mind that the very beginning of the sliding timescale (Kal El's arrival on Earth) might still be before 1985; though that won't be the case anymore in a year or two.

**bat39** · 12-03-2022, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by Dataweaver

3. A mixture of 1 and 2. As with 1, the bulk of the JSA and related characters are time-skipped forward at some point from the 20th century to the 21st century. (I still say that the Crisis on Infinite Earths is the most natural way to do this, both because it kinda did something similar already and because it can easily be used to jusify time-skipping anyone from 1985 to “ten years ago”, not just the capes; but me saying it doesn't make it so.) But not all of them are time-skipped; and the ones that aren't continue to live through the intervening years, adding an ever-increasing amount of new history in the gap. Just for basic sanity, I'd limit the “left-behinds” to JSAers who don't age and/or have a way to rejuvinate (I'm looking at you, Hawkman), and/or Golden Agers whose legacies aren't directly connected to them (Mr. Terrific or Dr. Mid-Nite; possibly Wildcat).

Adding layers of history to the team isn't a bad idea; and it's in keeping with the way the New Golden Age has been adding characters to history.

The advantage of this approach is that it keeps the benefits of the time-skip where that would be most beneficial (such as skipping the Infinitors forward to keep them sufficiently youthful, instead of forcing them to now be approaching retirement age), while giving the writers the freedom to create new story material in the gap. I wouldn't want the exact lineup of the “90s throwback” cover as a new 90s-era JSA, as it would force massive rewrites of character histories that I'd rather not see rewritten (e.g., Jack Knight's Starman); but the idea is sound.

The downside of this approach is that it's messy: who time-skipped and who didn't? And that extra history is only an upside if you can use it: having a JSA operating in the 90s does nothing useful unless they have actual adventures with consequences. If they only exist on a splash page saying “oh, by the way, these guys existed”, then there's little point to having them.

Your last point is a fairly big downside. I think Factor's point about the JSA disbanding but a few of the scattered heroes left behind still having their own adventures behind-the-scenes makes sense.

I feel its important for superheroes to have disappeared for awhile before Superman and the rest of his generation debut.

I also don't think the JSA needs to have been super-active right up till 1985. Maybe they'd already started winding down before COIE (which, according to you, is when they time-jump or go into Ragnarok or whatever)? But even if they were...my current theory is that Superman may have debuted around 16-17 years ago. Let's say 2005. That's 20 years after 1985 and the last appearance of the JSA. Nearly a generation. I'm not saying people would have forgotten the JSA completely, but enough time would have passed for Superman's debut to feel like a huge deal. And of course, this gap will keep increasing with every passing year...

Also, according to the restored history in Doomsday Clock, Clark grew up hearing about the JSA from Jonathan Kent and that inspired him to become Superboy. If Clark grew up in the 90's, that makes perfect sense...the JSA existed before he was born, but his dad was around when they were active and could tell him stories about them that would inspire him.

**Dataweaver** · 12-03-2022, 10:07 AM

For the sliding timeline, you could do worse than to take the timeline from Zero Hour #0 and add six years to it. Starting with:

35 (now 41) years ago: J'onn J'onzz accidentally teleported to Earth
33 (now 39) years ago: Kal-El arrived on Earth, landing near Smallville
30 (now 36) years ago: Captain Comet
25 (now 31) years ago: Bruce Wayne's parent killed; Project Atom begins.
15 (now 21) years ago: Clark Kent leaves Smallville for Metropolis; Cave Carson; Sea Devils; Sarge Steel; Doom Patrol; Animal Man; Alec Holland becomes Swamp Thing.
13 (now 19) years ago: Metal Men; Metamorpho; Challengers of the Unknown; Deadman.
11 (now 17) years ago: Oliver Queen stranded in a desert island, learns archery.
10 (now 16) years ago: the new heroic age begins. Superman, Batman, the Joker, Catwoman, Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Black Canary, Aquaman, Adam Strange, Katar Hol, JLA.
9 (now 15) years ago: the Atom, Elongated Man; Doom Patrol dies; Creeper; Hawk and Dove; New Gods; Zatanna.
8 (now 14) years ago: Dick Grayson becomes Robin.
7 (now 13) years ago: Teen Titans form.
6 (now 12) years ago: Rose and Thorn; Black Lightning.
5 (now 11) years ago: Ted Kord becomes Blue Beetle; Captain Atom arrives in present; Firestorm. New Teen Titans form.
4 (now 10) years ago: Outsiders form. Crisis on Infinite Earths. Captain Marvel. The Question. Vigilante.
3 (now 9) years ago: JLI. Killing Joke, Death in the Family. Outsiders disband.
2 (now 8) years ago: LEGION, Starman (Will Payton).
1 (now 7) year ago: Tim Drake becomes Robin. JSA returns from Ragnarok.
0 (now 6) years ago: Death of Superman; Knightfall; Emerald Twilight; Zero Hour.

Some details need to be adjusted: e.g., ZH#0 has Wonder Woman arriving just after the Crisis on Infinite Earths. And, of course, it would need to be extended to cover the next six years as well: Morrison's JLA, Young Justice, the Titans and JSA revivals; Infinite Crisis; Final Crisis; Flashpoint; Rebirth; Dark Nights; etc. But this could be viewed as a rough outline for the sliding timeline.

It's still a bit too condensed for my liking; I'd personally prefer another four years on the front end, giving ten years from Superman's debut to the Crisis on Infinite Earths. But that's a heck of a lot better than the timeline being three years shorter.

Another possibility would be to assume roughly a 4:1 time ratio: 1957–1969 are covered by the first three years; 1969–1985 would be another four years; 1985–1995 would be two and a half years; 1995–2005 would be another two and a half; 2005–2011 would be 1½ years; 2011–2015 would be one year; and 2015–2023 would be two years. Total time from start to finish: 16½ years. And when we hit 2038 (the 100th anniversary of Superman's debut), we'd be up to a 20-year sliding timeline.

A 3:1 ratio might work better, though: four years from 1958 to 1970; five years from 1970 to 1985; three years from 1985 to 1994; four years from 1994 to 2006; two years from 2006 to 2012; one year from 2012 to 2015; and two years from 2015 to 2021. Twenty-one years total.

**bat39** · 12-03-2022, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Dataweaver

For the sliding timeline, you could do worse than to take the timeline from Zero Hour #0 and add six years to it. Starting with:

35 (now 41) years ago: J'onn J'onzz accidentally teleported to Earth
33 (now 39) years ago: Kal-El arrived on Earth, landing near Smallville
30 (now 36) years ago: Captain Comet
25 (now 31) years ago: Bruce Wayne's parent killed; Project Atom begins.
15 (now 21) years ago: Clark Kent leaves Smallville for Metropolis; Cave Carson; Sea Devils; Sarge Steel; Doom Patrol; Animal Man; Alec Holland becomes Swamp Thing.
13 (now 19) years ago: Metal Men; Metamorpho; Challengers of the Unknown; Deadman.
11 (now 17) years ago: Oliver Queen stranded in a desert island, learns archery.
10 (now 16) years ago: the new heroic age begins. Superman, Batman, the Joker, Catwoman, Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Black Canary, Aquaman, Adam Strange, Katar Hol, JLA.
9 (now 15) years ago: the Atom, Elongated Man; Doom Patrol dies; Creeper; Hawk and Dove; New Gods; Zatanna.
8 (now 14) years ago: Dick Grayson becomes Robin.
7 (now 13) years ago: Teen Titans form.
6 (now 12) years ago: Rose and Thorn; Black Lightning.
5 (now 11) years ago: Ted Kord becomes Blue Beetle; Captain Atom arrives in present; Firestorm. New Teen Titans form.
4 (now 10) years ago: Outsiders form. Crisis on Infinite Earths. Captain Marvel. The Question. Vigilante.
3 (now 9) years ago: JLI. Killing Joke, Death in the Family. Outsiders disband.
2 (now 8) years ago: LEGION, Starman (Will Payton).
1 (now 7) year ago: Tim Drake becomes Robin. JSA returns from Ragnarok.
0 (now 6) years ago: Death of Superman; Knightfall; Emerald Twilight; Zero Hour.

Some details need to be adjusted: e.g., ZH#0 has Wonder Woman arriving just after the Crisis on Infinite Earths. And, of course, it would need to be extended to cover the next six years as well: Morrison's JLA, Young Justice, the Titans and JSA revivals; Infinite Crisis; Final Crisis; Flashpoint; Rebirth; Dark Nights; etc. But this could be viewed as a rough outline for the sliding timeline.

It's still a bit too condensed for my liking; I'd personally prefer another four years on the front end, giving ten years from Superman's debut to the Crisis on Infinite Earths. But that's a heck of a lot better than the timeline being three years shorter.

Another possibility would be to assume roughly a 4:1 time ratio: 1957–1969 are covered by the first three years; 1969–1985 would be another four years; 1985–1995 would be two and a half years; 1995–2005 would be another two and a half; 2005–2011 would be 1½ years; 2011–2015 would be one year; and 2015–2023 would be two years. Total time from start to finish: 16½ years. And when we hit 2038 (the 100th anniversary of Superman's debut), we'd be up to a 20-year sliding timeline.

A 3:1 ratio might work better, though: four years from 1958 to 1970; five years from 1970 to 1985; three years from 1985 to 1994; four years from 1994 to 2006; two years from 2006 to 2012; one year from 2012 to 2015; and two years from 2015 to 2021. Twenty-one years total.

Yeah, it's surprising how well this timeline works!

I suppose the one big change would have to be pushing Death of Superman to earlier in the timeline - 11 to 12 years ago instead of 6 years ago. Which going by this would be around the time the New Teen Titans form. Granted, we then need to explain a 5-6 year gap for Kon-El and for the Cyborg-Superman before his destruction of Coast City and Emerald Twilight...but it's do-able I guess.

**BatmanJones** · 12-04-2022, 12:41 AM

What exactly is the point of bringing back "The Infinite Earths" if we're not going to have an Earth-Two? Evidently we're not going to have an Earth-S either with the Shazam family incorporated into all main earth goings on.

I capitalized "Infinite Earths" because Pariah was trying to undo what happened in COIE and that would begin with returning the earths that had been wiped out in that event. Those were the "infinite earths" he was trying to restore and we saw a bunch of earths that he celebrated the return of. Instead of restoring the earths whose deaths he oversaw though it seems like he just created another in a series of multiverses.

It's been mentioned but it doesn't make a lot of sense for Batman and Catwoman's daughter to take the name and inspiration for her costume from Helena Bertinelli, which is the only real possibility if they share an earth.

I freaking hate Dark Crisis. For its time it's one of the most disappointing events I've read. But it could have had one very important good thing come out of it and that would be the restoration of Earth-Two. Oh well, I guess I'm used to a disappointment by now.

Thanks for nothing, Williamson. (And I do mean nothing since nothing is what we've gotten from the two years of this series, its prequels, and its tie-ins. If Dark Crisis #7 somehow manages to make up for the dullness of the last two years of Dark Crisis... What am I saying? A single issue cannot make up for a two year stream of utter nothingness.)

Bring back Earth-Two! Give us Doomsday Clock's Earth-1985 too. In other words, bring back Earth-One! Not Earth-Prime (that's our earth, Ultraa's and Superboy Prime's) or Earth Zero... Earth-One, the designation of the main earth right up until COIE erased the multiverse.

**HsssH** · 12-04-2022, 01:24 AM