The “New” History of the JSA: *New Golden Age SPOILERS*

[Dataweaver]

Separating out the Golden Age characters from Clutter Earth may present some story driven problems. I fully appreciate that. The Black Label solution works for those of us wanting more of what got us into comics. It allows stories set in a universe in which the JSA fought during WW2 with modern day story telling techniques. A version of Earth Two where the spear of destiny didn't keep the powered characters from taking the fight to Hitler and Hirohito leads to a shorter but just as devastating war. As a result, 1944 leads to Thomas Dewey beating Henry Wallace.

I dislike the JSA not affecting the war a bit. The A-bomb attacks on Japan happened at the exact same time, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan and the war ended. Although the was a sovereign nation of Quebec on that Earth Two, the years of superheroing did little to change human society. The presence of the Golden Age characters on Clutter Earth pretty much locks the need for an Earth like ours in place for Bruce and Clark's debuts. Keep in mind the Silver Age characters made changes and there are many advancements used that differentiate our Earth from Clutter Earth.

Would a Black Label book set in an Earth Two where the JSA changed thing sell is the question DC would and should ask. But I'd love to see that happen.

With one little nitpick: you can do that without removing the Golden Age characters from the shared Earth; just tell the tale on another Earth.

And frankly, you don't need a Multiverse for that. In the 90s, what you're asking for would just be an Elseworlds story; and if it sells well, it can get a sequel. The only thing you really need a Multiverse for is if you want the heroes of the various Earths interacting with each other. Frankly, if I could retcon one thing in the real-world publishing history of DC Comics, I'd nix Infinite Crisis and double down on Hypertime.

[CaptCleghorn]

With one little nitpick: you can do that without removing the Golden Age characters from the shared Earth; just tell the tale on another Earth.

And frankly, you don't need a Multiverse for that. In the 90s, what you're asking for would just be an Elseworlds story; and if it sells well, it can get a sequel. The only thing you really need a Multiverse for is if you want the heroes of the various Earths interacting with each other. Frankly, if I could retcon one thing in the real-world publishing history of DC Comics, I'd nix Infinite Crisis and double down on Hypertime.

I may not have been clear, but I was not suggesting removing the JSA from Clutter Earth. I assumed that the Black Label branding would indicate that these are different versions of the characters. It requires no retcons, nor hypertime, nor whatever else DC is calling this stuff this week.

[bat39]

Separating out the Golden Age characters from Clutter Earth may present some story driven problems. I fully appreciate that. The Black Label solution works for those of us wanting more of what got us into comics. It allows stories set in a universe in which the JSA fought during WW2 with modern day story telling techniques. A version of Earth Two where the spear of destiny didn't keep the powered characters from taking the fight to Hitler and Hirohito leads to a shorter but just as devastating war. As a result, 1944 leads to Thomas Dewey beating Henry Wallace.

I dislike the JSA not affecting the war a bit. The A-bomb attacks on Japan happened at the exact same time, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan and the war ended. Although the was a sovereign nation of Quebec on that Earth Two, the years of superheroing did little to change human society. The presence of the Golden Age characters on Clutter Earth pretty much locks the need for an Earth like ours in place for Bruce and Clark's debuts. Keep in mind the Silver Age characters made changes and there are many advancements used that differentiate our Earth from Clutter Earth.

Would a Black Label book set in an Earth Two where the JSA changed thing sell is the question DC would and should ask. But I'd love to see that happen.

I'd love to see a series like that as well! But turning the clock back to 1985 isn't going to deliver that - Pre-COIE Earth Two was not an earth with such a radically different history. It was just an earth extrapolated from Golden Age DC continuity ('continuity' being used in the loosest sense).

There's nothing stopping them right now from doing such a series as Black Label.

I may not have been clear, but I was not suggesting removing the JSA from Clutter Earth. I assumed that the Black Label branding would indicate that these are different versions of the characters. It requires no retcons, nor hypertime, nor whatever else DC is calling this stuff this week.

Fair enough. But there are people on this thread who are pushing for the erasure of JSA from 'Clutter Earth'. Guess Dataweaver mistook you for one of them

[CaptCleghorn]

I'd love to see a series like that as well! But turning the clock back to 1985 isn't going to deliver that - Pre-COIE Earth Two was not an earth with such a radically different history. It was just an earth extrapolated from Golden Age DC continuity ('continuity' being used in the loosest sense).

There's nothing stopping them right now from doing such a series as Black Label.

There really isn't except that a series like this as the JSA is getting their own book again might be confusing at the same time.
As for Earth Two being an extension of the Golden Age stories, that is 100% correct. Those original stories, though, were hampered by real life. While having comics show hitler and mussolini being pounded on covers, actual stories might be seen to show our soldiers to be ineffectual and the GA comics were all for our boys overseas.

Fair enough. But there are people on this thread who are pushing for the erasure of JSA from 'Clutter Earth'. Guess Dataweaver mistook you for one of them

I am all for erasing the JSA from Clutter Earth. But this idea can happen with or without that. The changing of WW2 is what brings this into BL territory.

[Dataweaver]

And that's a big part of my point: you can get the Black Label/Multiversal/Elseworlds stories without eating anything. And if there's a lesson to learn from Crisis on Infinite Earths and New 52, it's that eating things always leads to regret — even when it's something that you personally would be happy to be rid of.

[scary harpy]

I dont think they ever will devide Earth 0. But they can move on from it.

Again, I'm not against Infinite Earths. I'm only against the idea that you have to get rid of a shared Earth in order to use the Infinite Earths.

I see no reason why Earth 0 needs to be “moved on from”. I have no problem with entire series being set on other Earths.

I'm not sure if anyone really wishes for other fans to be shafted, it is just that DC universe that I'd like more... would likely be the one that you like less.

I think theses statements sum up everything nicely.

I cannot stand the clutter-earth; if I could, I wouldn't call it the clutter-earth.

I understand some like clutter-earth and do not want to move on.

I am past ready to move on from clutter-earth. For example, I feel New 52 would have much better on a 'new' earth!

HsssH, you are brilliant! Yes, the alternate DC universe that I would love, most other fans could not enjoy. And that is why we must all agree to disagree...and go to our separate earths.

[DABellWrites]

And that's a big part of my point: you can get the Black Label/Multiversal/Elseworlds stories without eating anything. And if there's a lesson to learn from Crisis on Infinite Earths and New 52, it's that eating things always leads to regret — even when it's something that you personally would be happy to be rid of.

I think the real lesson COIE and New52 is that you plan your reboots properly. While post-crisis wasn't messy as New52, you could tell everyone wasn't on the same page. But, that lead to some interesting ideas like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman not being founding members of the Justice League.

[bat39]

I think the real lesson COIE and New52 is that you plan your reboots properly. While post-crisis wasn't messy as New52, you could tell everyone wasn't on the same page. But, that lead to some interesting ideas like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman not being founding members of the Justice League.

I'd argue that the New 52 was a much bigger 'reboot' continuity-wise than COIE. COIE was ultimately more a soft-reboot for the DCU as a whole - Superman and Wonder Woman (and later Hawkman) got a hard reboot but everyone else either got a soft-reboot, light retcons or were totally unchanged.

The New 52 hard-rebooted the DCU, but played coy with the idea of being a reboot and tried to pretend that it was the Post-COIE universe altered to make everyone younger and retcon some characters. This allowed them to do things like keep Batman and GL continuity relatively unscathed, and pretend like the Death/Return of Superman still happened in this continuity, even if it made no sense.

The common denominator in both cases though was that DC wanted to reboot some parts of its universe while retaining the rest. They wanted the New Teen Titans to stay intact after COIE while Superman needed a clean slate. They wanted Morrison's Batman and Johns' GL runs to continue unabated but again, Superman needed a clean slate.

[Dataweaver]

I think the real lesson COIE and New52 is that you plan your reboots properly. While post-crisis wasn't messy as New52, you could tell everyone wasn't on the same page. But, that lead to some interesting ideas like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman not being founding members of the Justice League.

After seeing what happened with both reboots, as well as with Rebirth, I've come to the conclusion that “planning your reboot properly” is an impossible ideal. That's because different people think in different ways; and no matter how much you think you have everyone on the same page, you'll inevitably find that there's someone who went in with different assumptions than you.

I'd argue that the New 52 was a much bigger 'reboot' continuity-wise than COIE. COIE was ultimately more a soft-reboot for the DCU as a whole - Superman and Wonder Woman (and later Hawkman) got a hard reboot but everyone else either got a soft-reboot, light retcons or were totally unchanged.

The New 52 hard-rebooted the DCU, but played coy with the idea of being a reboot and tried to pretend that it was the Post-COIE universe altered to make everyone younger and retcon some characters. This allowed them to do things like keep Batman and GL continuity relatively unscathed, and pretend like the Death/Return of Superman still happened in this continuity, even if it made no sense.

The common denominator in both cases though was that DC wanted to reboot some parts of its universe while retaining the rest. They wanted the New Teen Titans to stay intact after COIE while Superman needed a clean slate. They wanted Morrison's Batman and Johns' GL runs to continue unabated but again, Superman needed a clean slate.

Another way to phrase that is that they wanted to fix what was broken but not what wasn't broken. Which is a perfectly reasonable position to hold. When the New 52 started, Morrison and Johns were both in the middle of telling an epic story that the Batman and Green Lantern fans were avidly following. Should they have been forced to cut their stories short because Superman was a mess? New Teen Titans was an interesting case, because Marv Wolfman was deeply involved in CoIE, and even suggested that every title should relaunch with a new #1 when it was over; but as you say, New Titans continued on without a reboot. And unlike New 52, CoIE was literally years in the making.

If you're going to have a reboot, you need to do so knowing going in that there will be inconsistencies about how, or even if, different parts of your universe will get rebooted.

[scary harpy]

After seeing what happened with both reboots, as well as with Rebirth, I've come to the conclusion that “planning your reboot properly” is an impossible ideal. That's because different people think in different ways; and no matter how much you think you have everyone on the same page, you'll inevitably find that there's someone who went in with different assumptions than you.

On this, we can agree completely!

Another way to phrase that is that they wanted to fix what was broken but not what wasn't broken. Which is a perfectly reasonable position to hold.

Is it?

When the New 52 started, Morrison and Johns were both in the middle of telling an epic story that the Batman and Green Lantern fans were avidly following. Should they have been forced to cut their stories short because Superman was a mess? New Teen Titans was an interesting case, because Marv Wolfman was deeply involved in CoIE, and even suggested that every title should relaunch with a new #1 when it was over; but as you say, New Titans continued on without a reboot.

Let's all say "New Titans continued on without a reboot"...and it ended badly.

Without a reboot, Titans created many inconsistencies in continuity. For what? In about a decade, the Titans title stunk up the comic book rack.

And that's the lesson: Today's hot title is cancelled next decade. Keeping Titans un-rebooted is not worth the mess it made.

And unlike New 52, CoIE was literally years in the making.

If you're going to have a reboot, you need to do so knowing going in that there will be inconsistencies about how, or even if, different parts of your universe will get rebooted.

And that's the other lesson: DC never learns from it's mistakes.

[Dataweaver]

Titans didn't create the inconsistencies; Wonder Woman editors created the inconsistencies. In particular, George Perez did a great job rewriting Wonder Woman's origin story; and then management at DC made a mess of things by insisting that Perez's retelling should be set in the present, with Diana only just now arriving in Man's World for the first time. That's the decision that made a mess of the timeline; New Titans merely got caught in the crossfire.

And while New Titans did end badly, that was a decade later, and mainly happened because Wolfman ran out of steam. Some time around 1990 or so, he should have wrapped it up and either ended the series or passed the baton to someone else. But the fall of New Titans had nothing to do with Crisis on Infinite Earths or its reboot.

[scary harpy]

Titans didn't create the inconsistencies; Wonder Woman editors created the inconsistencies. In particular, George Perez did a great job rewriting Wonder Woman's origin story; and then management at DC made a mess of things by insisting that Perez's retelling should be set in the present, with Diana only just now arriving in Man's World for the first time. That's the decision that made a mess of the timeline; New Titans merely got caught in the crossfire.

Yes, this resulted in "Who is Donna Troy?"

If Titans had been rebooted, this may not have been an issue.

And while New Titans did end badly, that was a decade later, and mainly happened because Wolfman ran out of steam. Some time around 1990 or so, he should have wrapped it up and either ended the series or passed the baton to someone else. But the fall of New Titans had nothing to do with Crisis on Infinite Earths or its reboot.

Correct! The lesson: all hot titles eventually run out of steam. Except it...and plan for it when you reboot the universe yet again. DC never learns.

[Dataweaver]

Yes, this resulted in "Who is Donna Troy?"

If Titans had been rebooted, this may not have been an issue.

The only way it wouldn't have “been an issue” would have been if Donna Troy had been deleted in that reboot. And had that happened, the fans of New Titans would rightly have been screaming bloody murder that a beloved character that they enjoyed reading about had been axed because of a stupid decision made by the Wonder Woman editorial team. “Who is Donna Troy?” was actually a better resolution; and the best resolution would have been for the Wonder Woman editorial team to not claim that Perez's reboot of her origin was a contemporary event, leaving some semblance of her history intact and leaving room for such things as her having rescued Donna from a burning building years earlier.

That's what I mean by “whenever you delete history, you always end up regretting it”.

[scary harpy]

The only way it wouldn't have “been an issue” would have been if Donna Troy had been deleted in that reboot. And had that happened, the fans of New Titans would rightly have been screaming bloody murder that a beloved character that they enjoyed reading about had been axed because of a stupid decision made by the Wonder Woman editorial team. “Who is Donna Troy?” was actually a better resolution; and the best resolution would have been for the Wonder Woman editorial team to not claim that Perez's reboot of her origin was a contemporary event, leaving some semblance of her history intact and leaving room for such things as her having rescued Donna from a burning building years earlier.

That's what I mean by “whenever you delete history, you always end up regretting it”.

That may be the only way you that you can think of...but that is not the only way.

Although, I admit the solution would require creativity...and that may have been a stumbling block at DC. From what I understand, some at DC were not big Titans fans.

[Dataweaver]

Certainly that wasn't the only way. What they actually did was another way; but it didn't require rebooting the entire team.