The “New” History of the JSA: *New Golden Age SPOILERS*

[CaptCleghorn]

Many JSA, Charlton and Shazam characters have gone for years/decades without significant, or any at all, appearances. For example, JSA has been gone for close to 10 years if we don't count irrelevant "they totally still exist" panels in event books. What would really change if entire Shazam franchise was moved to E-5 for good? They are not strongly connected to any other franchise nor are they "important" to any DC classics that are set in main continuity. Majority of readers wouldn't even notice if they were gone.

The argument against that is getting characters together for events would be too difficult. I don't agree, as the JLA and JSA had their annual meetings sometimes just to hang and chat. Outside of some of the Charlton heroes, I agree with you 100%. I think there are Beetle and Question links that strongly support those characters on DC's main Earth.

[bat39]

The argument against that is getting characters together for events would be too difficult. I don't agree, as the JLA and JSA had their annual meetings sometimes just to hang and chat. Outside of some of the Charlton heroes, I agree with you 100%. I think there are Beetle and Question links that strongly support those characters on DC's main Earth.

I think the real argument is, now that they're all on the same earth, why bother separating them? Is there more to be gained than lost? Especially since you can anyway have alternate versions of them on other earths.

DC has spent over 35 years incorporating them onto the 'main' earth. I don't really see too many upsides to reversing that.

[Dataweaver]

Exactly. And the main Earth allows for possibilities that simply aren't there if you just have the variant Earths. Kate Spencer, for example: she's the granddaughter of Iron Munro and the original Phantom Lady. Without the shared Earth, Phantom Lady would be a native of Earth 2 who got transported to Earth X; she would still be in her prime, and would not have a granddaughter. Iron Munro wouldn't even exist, as he was created to be the main Earth's stand-in for the Golden Age Superman: no shared Earth, no Iron Munro. Kate also uses a a Darkstar suit, which Grant Morrison ended up putting on a reborn Earth 15; if we were to do away with the shared Earth, then the Darkstars would likely end up on Earth 15 and not the main Earth.

The main argument I've seen for separating them onto other Earths and deleting the shared Earth has been “if you have two copies, only one of them will get any attention.” But these same people tend to also argue that Earth 2 should have its own version of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, distinct from the “Earth 1” versions. Doesn't the same logic apply here? Why is it desirable to have “main Earth Superman and Earth 2 Superman”, but not “main Earth Shazam and Earth S/5 Captain Marvel”? And besides: the way to resolve “only one of them would get any attention” is to give attention to both versions.

[HsssH]

Exactly. And the main Earth allows for possibilities that simply aren't there if you just have the variant Earths. Kate Spencer, for example: she's the granddaughter of Iron Munro and the original Phantom Lady. Without the shared Earth, Phantom Lady would be a native of Earth 2 who got transported to Earth X; she would still be in her prime, and would not have a granddaughter. Iron Munro wouldn't even exist, as he was created to be the main Earth's stand-in for the Golden Age Superman: no shared Earth, no Iron Munro. Kate also uses a a Darkstar suit, which Grant Morrison ended up putting on a reborn Earth 15; if we were to do away with the shared Earth, then the Darkstars would likely end up on Earth 15 and not the main Earth.

I'm sure that Marc Andreyko would have figured out something considering that Kate was created decades later than Munro or Phantom Lady.
Morrison used Blackstars, not Darkstars.

The main argument I've seen for separating them onto other Earths and deleting the shared Earth has been “if you have two copies, only one of them will get any attention.” But these same people tend to also argue that Earth 2 should have its own version of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, distinct from the “Earth 1” versions. Doesn't the same logic apply here? Why is it desirable to have “main Earth Superman and Earth 2 Superman”, but not “main Earth Shazam and Earth S/5 Captain Marvel”? And besides: the way to resolve “only one of them would get any attention” is to give attention to both versions.

Because Batman and Superman (and to lesser extent Wonder Woman) can support multiple versions being published. Nobody is going to support two different versions of Iron Munro.

[Jon Clark]

I think the real argument is, now that they're all on the same earth, why bother separating them? Is there more to be gained than lost? Especially since you can anyway have alternate versions of them on other earths.

DC has spent over 35 years incorporating them onto the 'main' earth. I don't really see too many upsides to reversing that.

In some cases likr the JSA it's because parts of their history are nerfed by having to fit into the single Earth. The whole debate about the Trinity, for example. On a separate Earth you can have characters like Huntress or Robin who have full Batman histories but also have grown up with the JSAers as uncles and aunts. You can drop little tidbits like South Africa being apartheid free decades earlier or Quebec being autonomous which are more interesting as part of an ongoing narrative than as part of an Elseworlds we see maybe once every five years.

And people like the Shazams get to be the major powers without undercutting the Trinity (or Captain Atom or Alan Scott ...). It's easier to have the JSA deal with a major threat when you aren't having readers questioning why the Titans, JLA, Green Lantern Corps ... aren't involved. One of my main complaints with the post-Crisis "Clutter-Earth" was the fact that you had too many characters for any given role on one Earth. How much sense does Infinity Inc make as JSA: the Next Genertaion on a world where they co-exist with the Titans? Or the Freedom Fighters (as political heroes) on a world with Captain Atom or the Suicide Squad. And an Earth with Mr. Majestic, Apollo, Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter all coexisting with the Super-family? Or Barry, Jay, Wally, Wallace, Jai, Irey, Jesse Quick, Bart, Avery ,,, and not one speedster placed in their own corner where they (and they alone) can shine as fast.

[Dataweaver]

Because Batman and Superman (and to lesser extent Wonder Woman) can support multiple versions being published. Nobody is going to support two different versions of Iron Munro.

I asked about having both Earth 0 Shazam and Earth S/5 Captain Marvel, which you ignored. I didn't suggest that everyone on Earth 0 has to have duplicates on other Earths.

[Dataweaver]

In some cases likr the JSA it's because parts of their history are nerfed by having to fit into the single Earth. The whole debate about the Trinity, for example. On a separate Earth you can have characters like Huntress or Robin who have full Batman histories but also have grown up with the JSAers as uncles and aunts. You can drop little tidbits like South Africa being apartheid free decades earlier or Quebec being autonomous which are more interesting as part of an ongoing narrative than as part of an Elseworlds we see maybe once every five years.

And people like the Shazams get to be the major powers without undercutting the Trinity (or Captain Atom or Alan Scott ...). It's easier to have the JSA deal with a major threat when you aren't having readers questioning why the Titans, JLA, Green Lantern Corps ... aren't involved. One of my main complaints with the post-Crisis "Clutter-Earth" was the fact that you had too many characters for any given role on one Earth. How much sense does Infinity Inc make as JSA: the Next Genertaion on a world where they co-exist with the Titans? Or the Freedom Fighters (as political heroes) on a world with Captain Atom or the Suicide Squad. And an Earth with Mr. Majestic, Apollo, Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter all coexisting with the Super-family? Or Barry, Jay, Wally, Wallace, Jai, Irey, Jesse Quick, Bart, Avery ,,, and not one speedster placed in their own corner where they (and they alone) can shine as fast.

But again, you're assuming an either/or arrangement: either a single combined Earth, or a return to something resembling the pre-Crisis Multiverse. Why not do both?

[HsssH]

I asked about having both Earth 0 Shazam and Earth S/5 Captain Marvel, which you ignored. I didn't suggest that everyone on Earth 0 has to have duplicates on other Earths.

Because I already wrote in last page that currently Earth-5 Shazam is getting zero attention. In last seven years Earth-5 Shazam has made one, one significant appearance. Earth-5 Mary had some more wallpaper appearances due to being included in JLI, but it is not like she is doing anything worth mentioning there.

Sure, we can talk about how DC could do better, but lets be realistic here - Shazam can't support an ongoing, he sure as hell isn't going to support two ongoings.

[Dataweaver]

And that wouldn't change by destroying Earth 0. The problem that Earth 5's Captain Marvel faces isn't that Earth 0 Shazam exists; it's that nobody is writing anything about Thunderworld.

[SiegePerilous02]

Exactly. And the main Earth allows for possibilities that simply aren't there if you just have the variant Earths. Kate Spencer, for example: she's the granddaughter of Iron Munro and the original Phantom Lady. Without the shared Earth, Phantom Lady would be a native of Earth 2 who got transported to Earth X; she would still be in her prime, and would not have a granddaughter. Iron Munro wouldn't even exist, as he was created to be the main Earth's stand-in for the Golden Age Superman: no shared Earth, no Iron Munro. Kate also uses a a Darkstar suit, which Grant Morrison ended up putting on a reborn Earth 15; if we were to do away with the shared Earth, then the Darkstars would likely end up on Earth 15 and not the main Earth.

The main argument I've seen for separating them onto other Earths and deleting the shared Earth has been “if you have two copies, only one of them will get any attention.” But these same people tend to also argue that Earth 2 should have its own version of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, distinct from the “Earth 1” versions. Doesn't the same logic apply here? Why is it desirable to have “main Earth Superman and Earth 2 Superman”, but not “main Earth Shazam and Earth S/5 Captain Marvel”? And besides: the way to resolve “only one of them would get any attention” is to give attention to both versions.

In the case of the Trinity having duplicates across two Earths doesn't mean the Earth-2 versions would get significant page time (though like Hssh said, they are big enough characters to justify it, while others are not). It would just allow JSA/Golden age publication to exist as it was published instead of doing time travel nonsense or whatever on the main Earth to force it (when it comes to streamlining things, time travel is the worst plot device you could use). Most of the attention could go to their respective legacies who could exist in their original contexts prior to the retcons, and the Trinity wouldn't be undermined on the main Earth by the existence of the JSA preceding them, and Wonder Woman's timeline wouldn't be messed with for the benefit of the JSA instead of her.

Because I already wrote in last page that currently Earth-5 Shazam is getting zero attention. In last seven years Earth-5 Shazam has made one, one significant appearance. Earth-5 Mary had some more wallpaper appearances due to being included in JLI, but it is not like she is doing anything worth mentioning there.

Sure, we can talk about how DC could do better, but lets be realistic here - Shazam can't support an ongoing, he sure as hell isn't going to support two ongoings.

And that wouldn't change by destroying Earth 0. The problem that Earth 5's Captain Marvel faces isn't that Earth 0 Shazam exists; it's that nobody is writing anything about Thunderworld.

Shazam is getting a new series by Waid, and considering his tastes, odds are good that even if it takes place on Earth-0 there will be little distinction between it and Thunder world, because the latter is the classic Captain Marvel Waid would prefer. And if it's isolated from the rest of the DCU, it might as well be on Earth 5

[Jon Clark]

But again, you're assuming an either/or arrangement: either a single combined Earth, or a return to something resembling the pre-Crisis Multiverse. Why not do both?

Because the single combined Earth reduces the role of these heroes. Shazam becomes "one of" the World's Mightiest Mortals, Power Girl loses her role as the only legacy of a Superman, the Freedom Fighters on a single Earth don't have a distinct role.

It's not that they can't have a world where they are the main heroes, but rather what do they really add to a single Earth where they are one of hundreds of heroes rather than being one of a handful? What does Power Girl gain by co-existing with Supergirl on the same Earth? What does Lyta Trecor gain by becoming something other than Wonder Woman's daughter? Does Judy Garrick gain anything by being introduced as yet another speedster on a single Earth as compared to being the only Flash legacy?

[astro@work]

And that wouldn't change by destroying Earth 0. The problem that Earth 5's Captain Marvel faces isn't that Earth 0 Shazam exists; it's that nobody is writing anything about Thunderworld.

I think this is the gist of it right here. All those other versions people are clamoring for DO exist in the current omni/multiverse. Earth 2. Thunderworld. Earth X (now Earth 10). The thing is that nobody is writing any stories about them.

[scary harpy]

I think the real argument is, now that they're all on the same earth, why bother separating them? Is there more to be gained than lost? Especially since you can anyway have alternate versions of them on other earths.

DC has spent over 35 years incorporating them onto the 'main' earth. I don't really see too many upsides to reversing that.

Exactly. And the main Earth allows for possibilities that simply aren't there if you just have the variant Earths. Kate Spencer, for example: she's the granddaughter of Iron Munro and the original Phantom Lady. Without the shared Earth, Phantom Lady would be a native of Earth 2 who got transported to Earth X; she would still be in her prime, and would not have a granddaughter. Iron Munro wouldn't even exist, as he was created to be the main Earth's stand-in for the Golden Age Superman: no shared Earth, no Iron Munro. Kate also uses a a Darkstar suit, which Grant Morrison ended up putting on a reborn Earth 15; if we were to do away with the shared Earth, then the Darkstars would likely end up on Earth 15 and not the main Earth.

The main argument I've seen for separating them onto other Earths and deleting the shared Earth has been “if you have two copies, only one of them will get any attention.” But these same people tend to also argue that Earth 2 should have its own version of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, distinct from the “Earth 1” versions. Doesn't the same logic apply here? Why is it desirable to have “main Earth Superman and Earth 2 Superman”, but not “main Earth Shazam and Earth S/5 Captain Marvel”? And besides: the way to resolve “only one of them would get any attention” is to give attention to both versions.

I'm sure that Marc Andreyko would have figured out something considering that Kate was created decades later than Munro or Phantom Lady.
Morrison used Blackstars, not Darkstars.



Because Batman and Superman (and to lesser extent Wonder Woman) can support multiple versions being published. Nobody is going to support two different versions of Iron Munro.

In some cases likr the JSA it's because parts of their history are nerfed by having to fit into the single Earth. The whole debate about the Trinity, for example. On a separate Earth you can have characters like Huntress or Robin who have full Batman histories but also have grown up with the JSAers as uncles and aunts. You can drop little tidbits like South Africa being apartheid free decades earlier or Quebec being autonomous which are more interesting as part of an ongoing narrative than as part of an Elseworlds we see maybe once every five years.

And people like the Shazams get to be the major powers without undercutting the Trinity (or Captain Atom or Alan Scott ...). It's easier to have the JSA deal with a major threat when you aren't having readers questioning why the Titans, JLA, Green Lantern Corps ... aren't involved. One of my main complaints with the post-Crisis "Clutter-Earth" was the fact that you had too many characters for any given role on one Earth. How much sense does Infinity Inc make as JSA: the Next Genertaion on a world where they co-exist with the Titans? Or the Freedom Fighters (as political heroes) on a world with Captain Atom or the Suicide Squad. And an Earth with Mr. Majestic, Apollo, Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter all coexisting with the Super-family? Or Barry, Jay, Wally, Wallace, Jai, Irey, Jesse Quick, Bart, Avery ,,, and not one speedster placed in their own corner where they (and they alone) can shine as fast.

But again, you're assuming an either/or arrangement: either a single combined Earth, or a return to something resembling the pre-Crisis Multiverse. Why not do both?

Because I already wrote in last page that currently Earth-5 Shazam is getting zero attention. In last seven years Earth-5 Shazam has made one, one significant appearance. Earth-5 Mary had some more wallpaper appearances due to being included in JLI, but it is not like she is doing anything worth mentioning there.

Sure, we can talk about how DC could do better, but lets be realistic here - Shazam can't support an ongoing, he sure as hell isn't going to support two ongoings.

Because the single combined Earth reduces the role of these heroes. Shazam becomes "one of" the World's Mightiest Mortals, Power Girl loses her role as the only legacy of a Superman, the Freedom Fighters on a single Earth don't have a distinct role.

It's not that they can't have a world where they are the main heroes, but rather what do they really add to a single Earth where they are one of hundreds of heroes rather than being one of a handful? What does Power Girl gain by co-existing with Supergirl on the same Earth? What does Lyta Trecor gain by becoming something other than Wonder Woman's daughter? Does Judy Garrick gain anything by being introduced as yet another speedster on a single Earth as compared to being the only Flash legacy?

I agree with Jon Clark.

The JSA and their children should be the premiere and premier superheroes. If they are on the same earth as the JLA, the JSA are ignored.

The JSA earth could easily incorporate updated Quality heroes.
The JLA earth could easily incorporate updated Charlton heroes.

Shazam requires more thought.

Fawcett does not have enough heroes and villains to support their own Earth. Maybe add golden-age Fawcett to Earth 2 and silver-age Shazam to Earth 1?

Also, earth-hopping is easy; the JSA could have fought in WW2 on Earth 2, then Earth 1 and even Earth 3.

[Lee Stone]

I don't mind the JSA on the same earth as the JLA.
As easily as it was for them to hop from Earth to Earth, it didn't really matter anyway. Going from Earth-2 to Earth-1 was no harder than going from LA to NY.
At least with them on the same earth, they don't have to explain how one's villains made it to the others' earth during the crossovers.

[Dataweaver]

I think this is the gist of it right here. All those other versions people are clamoring for DO exist in the current omni/multiverse. Earth 2. Thunderworld. Earth X (now Earth 10). The thing is that nobody is writing any stories about them.

Exactly. You want an Earth where the JSA is the premier superteam? You have Earth 2. You want an Earth where the JLA is the premier superteam? You have Earth 1985. You want an Earth where Captain Marvel is the premier superhero? You have Earth 5. The issue isn't that these worlds don't exist; they do. The issue is that nobody is writing about them.

I agree with Jon Clark.

The JSA and their children should be the premiere and premier superheroes. If they are on the same earth as the JLA, the JSA are ignored.

The JSA earth could easily incorporate updated Quality heroes.
The JLA earth could easily incorporate updated Charlton heroes.

Shazam requires more thought.

Fawcett does not have enough heroes and villains to support their own Earth.

My solution: combine Fawcett world with CSA world.

The major failing of the CSA is they have never had opponents who could really challenge them. This is what usually leads to their downfall.

Fawcett heroes (Shazam, Scarlet, etcetera) and CSA heroes (Alex Luthor) versus Fawcett villains (Black Adam) and CSA villains (Ultraman, Superwoman Olwman, etcetera) could lead to interesting stories.

Also, earth-hopping is easy; the JSA could have fought in WW2 on Earth 2, then Earth 1 and even Earth 3.

If your goal is to minimize the number of Earths, that's actually an argument against having Infinite Earths, and for just a shared Earth. At the very least, it isn't an argument for getting rid of the combined Earth.

Though a lesson I learned from JLA: Earth 2 is that one Earth isn't enough; you need at least two, as there's absolutely positively no way to have the CSA on the same Earth as the JLA. But you could combine the CSA's Earth with Earth X, in the same way that The New Golden Age is effectively combining the JSA's Earth and the JLA's Earth: the 20th century of this “Mirror Earth” would be the Nazi Earth featuring the Freedom Fighters, just like the 20th century of Earth 0 features the JSA; and the 21st century of the Mirror Earth features the rise of the CSA, just like the 21st century of Earth 0 focuses on the Justice League.