The “New” History of the JSA: *New Golden Age SPOILERS*

[Dataweaver]

I have to go back to disagreeing with you. The phrase "Everything Happened" is from Death Metal and what it mesnt is that a writer can kow acknowledge all the changes to the main universe, and take the best elements of the Golden age, Silver Age, etc and write a story in the present that comtinues all the development and memories from both eras.

Hypertime isn't an expression of this

Not the specific phrase “Everything Happened”, no; I was conflating that with the very similar phrase “It's All True”. See the following article, published way back in the late 90s immediately after Hypertime was first introduced: Waid on the Keys to the Kingdom.

I'll grant that unlocking memories of past iterations is new; but the idea of giving the writers a way to incorporate anything from DC's past into their stories isn't new; and the whole point behind the concept of Hypertime was to enable this.

In particular, the most controversial aspect of Hypertime is its ability to temporarily or permanently merge alternate timelines, letting the writer incorporate elements of a previous story that had long been declared “out of canon” — very much the same sort of thing that the “memories of past iterations” notion you're talking about is trying to enable. It's arguably even more powerful; possibly too powerful: in theory, it can allow you to bring back anything ever published. Compared to that, the ability to split the timeline at a decision point is tame.

[Psy-lock]

Simmer down, fan. Its really not that crucial. Please don't act like adding a new Villian to her is some kind of assault or drastic transformation. Because really It just isnt.

Nope, this is what you've actually said:

I was thinking...
So... I think the best take is that Wonder Woman has been Is active since World War II. And I think after listening to this thread the real answer is she's unable to change things in the way that she intended because her greatest villain Should essentially be Vandal Savage.

The more I think about it the more the ideas that's in that what she came to do was in opposition of what he came to do.

It also gives Her a Luther who she's not allowed to just kill. The 2nd she joined man's world he starts moving behind the scenes against her at all times kind of like the comic book the planetary if you're familiar with it.

It also gives something really interesting... Tales of Wonder Woman. Where was Wonder Woman during XY and Z. It all happened it just happened off screen. The world of man is best, And I could easily see her writing wrongs in other parts of the world that aren't just In the united states.

Vandal savage would be good because he kind of would hate the gods and their ilk... Progeny... I mean hes been around to see what that gets you. I have a feeling that it would also be a good descriptor for why she's so stabby. She's very long lived and the world hasn't just started marching to her tune yet. That's very frustrating. Steve Trevor dying and being brought back is nothing, Orpheus in the Underworld It's not unheard of in myth, so how about this: She pissed off Hades and so Steve Trevor is cursed. Cursed with reincarnation. Until she lays down her swords he will always be there to taunt her with true loveThen die like Mina in Dracula. Shrug Immortal superhuman stories kind of write themselves

You didn't suggest to just add another villain to her Rogues Gallery but to make him her central villain.

[Will Evans]

Nope, this is what you've actually said:



You didn't suggest to just add another villain to her Rogues Gallery but to make him her central villain.

To be fair to them, 25 years ago when we were still dealing with post-crisis continuity. And Hippolyta was the reincarnation of a pregnant cavewoman, and she was pregnant, but her caveman mate killed her. Then she was resurrected as Hippolyta. And later on she prayed to the gods to reincarnate her pregnant baby’s soul into the clay form that became Diana.

I thought, “Hey, Vandal Savage was a caveman. Wouldn’t it be cool if Vandal was Hippolyta’s mate and thus Diana original father.”

I definitely grew out of that idea as I got older.

[Psy-lock]

To be fair to them, 25 years ago when we were still dealing with post-crisis continuity. And Hippolyta was the reincarnation of a pregnant cavewoman, and she was pregnant, but her caveman mate killed her. Then she was resurrected as Hippolyta. And later on she prayed to the gods to reincarnate her pregnant baby’s soul into the clay form that became Diana.

I thought, “Hey, Vandal Savage was a caveman. Wouldn’t it be cool if Vandal was Hippolyta’s mate and thus Diana original father.”

I definitely grew out of that idea as I got older.

Lol, didn't give them ideas.

[SiegePerilous02]

No one has a good idea of what she's supposed to be everyone just talks about what they don't want her to be. That's A big part of the problem.

Also a couple of people mock the idea of vandal savage being her enemy but her enemies are literal garbage.

Cat woman. Chetarah... whatever.Guy with giant head who hates women... She has no enemies worth stealing... Circe is generic "EVIL" Dark magic girl.

Ares is actually worth a damn but He can only be a villain of the week so often. So I'm not sure what you guys want other than to say no not that

Funny, Wonder Woman fans understand what she should be just fine. It's why Marston, Perez, Jimenez, Rucka and Simone's runs are embraced by fans, and why Historia (about her mother) is such a great epic.

Just because she and her world don't click with you doesn't mean there is anything inherently wrong with them. Her world runs on inherently feminine and queer themes, so it's not surprising that the appeal doesn't resonate with most mainstream comic fans. But present it to a wider audience, in the case of her first film and possibly her video game, it might be a different story

I should point out that Vandal predates Ra's both in and out of universe.

I don't have many strong feelings about Vandal either way, but more pointing out for all his history he's not a super iconic and popular villain. And I think you would agree, he's certainly not needed for the WW ip nor would he give her a boost as a notable villain.

[Midnight_v]

Funny, Wonder Woman fans understand what she should be just fine. It's why Marston, Perez, Jimenez, Rucka and Simone's runs are embraced by fans, and why Historia (about her mother) is such a great epic.

Just because she and her world don't click with you doesn't mean there is anything inherently wrong with them. Her world runs on inherently feminine and queer themes, so it's not surprising that the appeal doesn't resonate with most mainstream comic fans. But present it to a wider audience, in the case of her first film and possibly her video game, it might be a different story



I don't have many strong feelings about Vandal either way, but more pointing out for all his history he's not a super iconic and popular villain. And I think you would agree, he's certainly not needed for the WW ip nor would he give her a boost as a notable villain.

Shrug. It wasn't about making me like it. People here rather laughably took offense like I want her to be something she's not by expanding her to have a villain added that would make narrative sense. People complained about her treatment. I saw that she does indeed get the stabby belligerent warrior role tossed on her a bit. Maybe there a reason for that? But... hey if you like it I love it. Its her fans that were like she gets unfavorable treatment, secretary to the JSA, 3rd behind Superman and Bats and apparently aquaman, I guess. Shame really cause she's got billion dollar movie chops. Oh well. Please enjoy your comics

[ducklord]

To be fair to them, 25 years ago when we were still dealing with post-crisis continuity. And Hippolyta was the reincarnation of a pregnant cavewoman, and she was pregnant, but her caveman mate killed her. Then she was resurrected as Hippolyta. And later on she prayed to the gods to reincarnate her pregnant baby’s soul into the clay form that became Diana.

I thought, “Hey, Vandal Savage was a caveman. Wouldn’t it be cool if Vandal was Hippolyta’s mate and thus Diana original father.”

I definitely grew out of that idea as I got older.

Can we get a mod to strike this from the record before in somehow manifests itself into canon?

Nothing against you, Will - it's actually a half-clever idea. But if Geoff Johns ever sees this, you can be damn sure it's gonna happen. And we gotta nip that in the bud

Prehistoric Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals were around for, like, tens of thousdands of years. In the DCU, there apparently were only about six of them, and they kept running into each other.

[Alpha]

Not the specific phrase “Everything Happened”, no; I was conflating that with the very similar phrase “It's All True”. See the following article, published way back in the late 90s immediately after Hypertime was first introduced: Waid on the Keys to the Kingdom.

I'll grant that unlocking memories of past iterations is new; but the idea of giving the writers a way to incorporate anything from DC's past into their stories isn't new; and the whole point behind the concept of Hypertime was to enable this.

In particular, the most controversial aspect of Hypertime is its ability to temporarily or permanently merge alternate timelines, letting the writer incorporate elements of a previous story that had long been declared “out of canon” — very much the same sort of thing that the “memories of past iterations” notion you're talking about is trying to enable. It's arguably even more powerful; possibly too powerful: in theory, it can allow you to bring back anything ever published. Compared to that, the ability to split the timeline at a decision point is tame.

I admit that hypertime is nowhere near my level of expertise, but I thought it was all about explaining away continuity errors. Mark Waid was trying to make sure retcons would never be necessary again by saying that our main timeline can split into two where different events take place, and then they merge back into one.

[SiegePerilous02]

Shrug. It wasn't about making me like it. People here rather laughably took offense like I want her to be something she's not by expanding her to have a villain added that would make narrative sense. People complained about her treatment. I saw that she does indeed get the stabby belligerent warrior role tossed on her a bit. Maybe there a reason for that? But... hey if you like it I love it. Its her fans that were like she gets unfavorable treatment, secretary to the JSA, 3rd behind Superman and Bats and apparently aquaman, I guess. Shame really cause she's got billion dollar movie chops. Oh well. Please enjoy your comics

Except you said repeatedly that her villains suck and nobody knows what to do with Diana. But your suggesting to add Vandal doesn't really work because thematically she already has three villains who already cover that that actual WW fans already love, and Vandal isn't really a super popular or iconic villain, not more so than them at least.

She has the stabby warrior problem, but that's kind of irrelevant to Vandal or her villains. By saying her property is weak because of ill treatment that comes from outside of it, you really can't be surprised that WW fans take slight offense to it.

And I wouldn't even say our comments come across as outrageously offended

[WonderLight789]

Fam. The villain's look lame from an outside perspective saying read her book isn't going to bring people in. You're not compelling inherently from an outside perspective or more people would be reading it.

Also vandal savage being AJSA villain could beSignal boost for her.

And no no one's going to suddenly accept suddenly except Wonder Woman beating the hell out of Superman and Batman.
Which apparently is what a couple of you guys are clamoring for at least.
It's just not gonna happen. Supes beats other heroes he shouldn't like Captain Atom, and Shazam. Bruce... bruce beat darkside.... and everyone really ... so give that up...that off the table understand if you want or care about that franchise you have to give her something that isn't that.

Wonder Woman has appeal just by virtue of being Wonder Woman and No one is going to take Hercules and big head guy serious you can get away with Ares because he has gravitas outside the book.
If you don't change what she's been doing the situation will stay the same.
Appeasing her fans isn't enough and the start is to give her villains that really matter

Circe and the cat girl but just not big enough...

She is not beating batman and superman because of sexism and homophobia. In the end. Diana as a character is far more interest and complex than batman and superman. Those 2 just had the benefit of white straight male privilege. Their stories are nothing ground greaking. They play it safe within the rules of the patriarchy.

[Alpha]

Just because she and her world don't click with you doesn't mean there is anything inherently wrong with them. Her world runs on inherently feminine and queer themes, so it's not surprising that the appeal doesn't resonate with most mainstream comic fans. But present it to a wider audience, in the case of her first film and possibly her video game, it might be a different story

As a huge Wonder Woman fanboy, her queer themes are better than most superhero comics, but they are still quite weak. X-Men usually compare quite well.
And while there are those that certainly would hate the queer nature of her stories (and as far as I'm concerned, who cares about them). Her gender has also been an issue in her evolution as a character for DC and some readers

But she also has other huge problems that make her an uncool character.

[Alpha]

Except you said repeatedly that her villains suck and nobody knows what to do with Diana. But your suggesting to add Vandal doesn't really work because thematically she already has three villains who already cover that that actual WW fans already love, and Vandal isn't really a super popular or iconic villain, not more so than them at least.

Thats definitely not true. She has other cool villains with similar qualities but Vandal Savage is far more popular than them.

[Factor]

This thread has certainly gone on a tangent lol.

[Mantis-Ray]

This thread has certainly gone on a tangent lol.

All because of a minor cameo of Wonder Woman at that

[Will Evans]

Can we get a mod to strike this from the record before in somehow manifests itself into canon?

Nothing against you, Will - it's actually a half-clever idea. But if Geoff Johns ever sees this, you can be damn sure it's gonna happen. And we gotta nip that in the bud

Prehistoric Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals were around for, like, tens of thousdands of years. In the DCU, there apparently were only about six of them, and they kept running into each other.

Lol. Please Geoff….look away….look away