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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    Agreed. It's weird because just a few months ago Johns made sure to establish Golden Age Green Arrow as the current one who got stranded in the past alongside Roy.
    Yet now Aquaman is separated in two distinct characters. There's no criteria.
    I think the story was fairly well written, and Johns obviously has a lot of attachment to these characters, but because of his fixation with specifics it does lead readers into questioning a lot of peculiar things that kind of stick out. Maybe that is what Johns' intention is if he just likes creating situations like this, but it does create a lot of confusion with fans trying to organize everything even if a lot of it doesn't need organizing.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Stanlos's Avatar
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    Sooooooooooooo this is the introduction of a new Earth in the multiverse?

  3. #63
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    Agreed. It's weird because just a few months ago Johns made sure to establish Golden Age Green Arrow as the current one who got stranded in the past alongside Roy.
    Yet now Aquaman is separated in two distinct characters. There's no criteria.
    COIE caused the removal of the Trinity, GA, and Aquaman from the Golden Age. Because Batman (and Robin) and Superman had little interaction with the JSA and other heroes in those days, they were easy enough to ignore in terms of DC's Golden Age history. Aquaman was barely mentioned as an Earth Two character and I think Roy Thomas did it just to include him as a published hero of that time for completeness. WW and GA needed to be removed from their respective teams and each character had multiple attempts to do that.

    The idea of WW's return to the JSA, IMO, has its origins in the first Gal Gadot movie where Diana first appears in WW1. Full disclosure, I am a JSA fan and read Wonder Woman based on the writer. My handling of this would be to put WW in the JSA, probably as a founding member and go through to the HUAC committee meeting where the JSA disappears. Diana goes back home and reappears for her modern day adventures. keeping her modern day activities and contacts active. If you don't like this idea, don't buy my WWII JSA book then.

    Unlike WW, Green Arrow (and Speedy) can't fit into the forties as the mortals they are and still be active today without time travel. If I were writing this, I'd have time travel event occur later in Ollie and Roy's lives. But Ollie's older and Roy's an adult! some will say. So what. The 7SV had 14 adventures not including their battle which sent them across time. Roy being in his mid 20's can easily be inconsequential to those stories.

    Aquaman is the only one left. As some here have said, a GA Aquaman doesn't seem to have a need. If an underwater hero is needed then, Neptune Perkins.
    I’ll don the mask and wear the cape
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  4. #64
    Incredible Member astro@work's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    The idea of WW's return to the JSA, IMO, has its origins in the first Gal Gadot movie where Diana first appears in WW1. Full disclosure, I am a JSA fan and read Wonder Woman based on the writer. My handling of this would be to put WW in the JSA, probably as a founding member and go through to the HUAC committee meeting where the JSA disappears. Diana goes back home and reappears for her modern day adventures. keeping her modern day activities and contacts active. If you don't like this idea, don't buy my WWII JSA book then.

    Unlike WW, Green Arrow (and Speedy) can't fit into the forties as the mortals they are and still be active today without time travel. If I were writing this, I'd have time travel event occur later in Ollie and Roy's lives. But Ollie's older and Roy's an adult! some will say. So what. The 7SV had 14 adventures not including their battle which sent them across time. Roy being in his mid 20's can easily be inconsequential to those stories.

    Aquaman is the only one left. As some here have said, a GA Aquaman doesn't seem to have a need. If an underwater hero is needed then, Neptune Perkins.
    I would easily buy your JSA book. :P

    R/E Diana, agree there should be a break between the golden age and modern age. Mostly allows Diana's modern adventures to remain "as is" as a return to man's world. Primarily need an explanation for Steve Trevor.
    (Timelost, reincarnated, descendent of the original, or original never existed in the golden age?). Johns didn't create the idea that Diana had been here all along (came from the anniversary special), he just chose to use it. But there does need to be a little more explanation than what we've gotten.

    R/E GA Aquaman...this one seems pretty unnecessary. While the true GA version DID have a different origin, he honestly didn't do much noteworthy and didn't cross over with the rest of the DCU (except a couple of A.S.Sq. adventures). Seems pretty redundant.

  5. #65
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    There's just no way to get legacy characters like Power Girl to work in a way that reflects their original purpose and history while having it be one Earth. She's Superman's legacy in the JSA, kind of hard to do that when Superman was never a peer to the JSA, and it's weird having her debut before Clark.

    These retcons may just be even more proof that Earth-2 would be the most coherent option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    Her being a founding member of the JLA is huge if you consider it an important part of the character. Some of us don't.
    Donna was never a big supporting player to the pre-Crisis WW. She only had a couple of appearances in her book.
    Her being a newbie hero isn't all that different from her status in the Golden Age where she debuted after most of the major heroes.
    Being a part of the JLA isn't a super important part of any of the Big 7's characters, as all of their IPs can function independently. But it's a shared universe and there is a LOT of published material that gets reprints with all of them in the JLA, and it's interconnected to stuff like Teen Titans. Donna is called Wonder Girl as part of the marketing to link her to Diana, and Wonder Woman and the Amazons showed up in NTT as part of her origin during the height of that book's popularity and when continuity was getting more dense.

    It never made any sense to alter Diana's timeline to exclude her from the JLA, so that there was a Wonder Girl running around with a lasso and bracelets years before Wonder Woman. And her being a rookie hero compared to Donna, Dick and Wally just feels completely wrong.

  6. #66
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    There's just no way to get legacy characters like Power Girl to work in a way that reflects their original purpose and history while having it be one Earth. She's Superman's legacy in the JSA, kind of hard to do that when Superman was never a peer to the JSA, and it's weird having her debut before Clark.

    These retcons may just be even more proof that Earth-2 would be the most coherent option.
    Earth 2 seems like a very good idea. The argument against is that the JSA aren't readily available for a Crisis event. This was the same JSA that used to crossover to visit the JLA every year for picnics, softball game, trivil pursuit tournaments or whatever.
    I’ll don the mask and wear the cape
    If I am super, how can I wait?

  7. #67
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Earth 2 seems like a very good idea. The argument against is that the JSA aren't readily available for a Crisis event. This was the same JSA that used to crossover to visit the JLA every year for picnics, softball game, trivil pursuit tournaments or whatever.
    Yeah, JLA Bronze age omnibuses I have showed that they had no issue interacting.

    I guess some think it's easier to explain them crossing over so much by living on the same Earth but...it was pretty easy as it was in the old comics, without any of the additional continuity headaches. And LESS Crisis crossovers would always be a good thing, IMO.

  8. #68
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    In fairness I don't think there's a lot to be gained by Diana on the JSA now other than publicity.
    What's gained by Wonder Woman being a member of the JSA in the 1940s is that creators who want to explore her wartime relationships with Jay, Alan, Carter, and the rest don't have to pretend all those old stories never happened. Having WW's history with the JSA back in continuity doesn't force creators or readers to deal with it. You can ignore it completely and the character remains the same. Same deal with the Golden Age Aquaman. My guess is the vast majority of Aquaman stories will never mention that there was another Aquaman with yellow gloves in the 40s sinking Nazi U-Boats...because that's not relevant to the story being told. However, the option is now there for creators to do so if they choose to.

    It's similar to how a lot of creators approached the Post-Crisis Superman retcons. Loeb & Sale simply never mention that Ma & Pa inexplicably allowed their unnaturally strong, fast, and tough son unfairly compete against other teenagers who had absolutely no chance of beating him because those creators knew that bringing that up wouldn't fit the story they were telling. You'll notice that Waid never has Superman bring up the Kents still being alive back in Smallville because he prefers them being dead. He's not contradicting anything by not bringing them up either. He's simply not mentioning it. So, creators who'd like to use the living Kents are free to do so while those who prefer Superman to be without his foster parents don't need to mention them being alive. Personally, I'd prefer Pa Kent to be dead myself, but I've come to realise that it'd be selfish of me to insist that all readers who enjoy reading about Superman and Pa Kent hanging out with each other be deprived of it because of me.

    Wonder Woman was a prominent member of the JSA in the 1940s (beyond being their "secretary"), whether or not that's valuable to you is kind of irrelevant as there are other readers and creators who do value that. You don't need to read those stories. It's as simple as that.

  9. #69
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    So Wonder Woman's history, supporting cast, backstory and character is going to be completely up-heaved and made a mess (again) so she can be worked into the history of a bunch of unrelated characters and a team which she gains absolutely nothing being a part of?

    It's **** like this that makes me hate shared universes. Because this really is putting the cart before the horse, and the same damn thing happens with Justice League--another affiliation that has never been good for Wonder Woman, BTW.

    And it all comes back to DC's unhealthy fixation on hierarchy and legacy. Face it guys, most of these characters were never meant to exist together. I don't give a **** who came first, or who's a founding member of whichever team, or who is who's kid, and I definitely don't understand the obsession with anchoring certain characters to goddamn World War II. It just makes the universe feel small, confined, and inbred.

    And...to top it off...of all writers to dictate Diana's history, GEOFF JOHNS? One of the worst Wonder Woman writers in the character's history? As if the man hasn't done enough damage to her?
    He has no business dictating anything related to Wonder Woman, and yet here we are, pulling the rug out from under her (again) in order to wank his god-awful nostalgia fetish.

    Alan Moore was right. Johns really is a raccoon rummaging through the garbage of his betters.
    I mean, the DCU's been a shared universe for several decades at this point. Whether it works or not, it's withstood the test of time and was basically the basis for YJ's entire universe.

    Also I don't expect this to really effect her books or her character that much because she doesn't seem to be involved in the JSA book at all past this. It'll probably matter as much as when Snyder tried to instigate it circa Death Metal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    What's gained by Wonder Woman being a member of the JSA in the 1940s is that creators who want to explore her wartime relationships with Jay, Alan, Carter, and the rest don't have to pretend all those old stories never happened. Having WW's history with the JSA back in continuity doesn't force creators or readers to deal with it. You can ignore it completely and the character remains the same. Same deal with the Golden Age Aquaman. My guess is the vast majority of Aquaman stories will never mention that there was another Aquaman with yellow gloves in the 40s sinking Nazi U-Boats...because that's not relevant to the story being told. However, the option is now there for creators to do so if they choose to.

    It's similar to how a lot of creators approached the Post-Crisis Superman retcons. Loeb & Sale simply never mention that Ma & Pa inexplicably allowed their unnaturally strong, fast, and tough son unfairly compete against other teenagers who had absolutely no chance of beating him because those creators knew that bringing that up wouldn't fit the story they were telling. You'll notice that Waid never has Superman bring up the Kents still being alive back in Smallville because he prefers them being dead. He's not contradicting anything by not bringing them up either. He's simply not mentioning it. So, creators who'd like to use the living Kents are free to do so while those who prefer Superman to be without his foster parents don't need to mention them being alive. Personally, I'd prefer Pa Kent to be dead myself, but I've come to realise that it'd be selfish of me to insist that all readers who enjoy reading about Superman and Pa Kent hanging out with each other be deprived of it because of me.

    Wonder Woman was a prominent member of the JSA in the 1940s (beyond being their "secretary"), whether or not that's valuable to you is kind of irrelevant as there are other readers and creators who do value that. You don't need to read those stories. It's as simple as that.
    Just by the nature of publishing and and the general audience I think you're more likely to see Diana interact more with JL characters than JSA characters and build those relationships up like how we just got an issue of her ongoing where she teamed-up with the Trinity because that's more relevant to her than her hanging out with the JSA again. I've never gotten the sense that WW was all that pivotal to JSA stories beyond the animated movie.

    It's not even that I'm trying to pretend those JSA stories didn't exist, I'm just talking about it from a character/mythos perspective.

  10. #70
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    There isn't

    No matter now many snarl and grumble about COIE, WW largely lost nothing of value with her pre-Crisis history being wiped clean. And of the stuff worth bringing back, JSA membership ain't even on that small list.

    This is just arbitrary "honoring the past" for some publicity at the expense of kneecapping a character whose moved on and been better without the JSA (and JLA but that's separate conservation).
    I generally agree about Diana with the JSA, but I do prefer she be a founding member of the Justice League.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
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  11. #71
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I generally agree about Diana with the JSA, but I do prefer she be a founding member of the Justice League.
    Yeah, whether they treat her that way or not, having your premier female hero help found your premier hero team makes the most sense.

  12. #72
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    What's gained by Wonder Woman being a member of the JSA in the 1940s is that creators who want to explore her wartime relationships with Jay, Alan, Carter, and the rest don't have to pretend all those old stories never happened. Having WW's history with the JSA back in continuity doesn't force creators or readers to deal with it. You can ignore it completely and the character remains the same. Same deal with the Golden Age Aquaman. My guess is the vast majority of Aquaman stories will never mention that there was another Aquaman with yellow gloves in the 40s sinking Nazi U-Boats...because that's not relevant to the story being told. However, the option is now there for creators to do so if they choose to.

    It's similar to how a lot of creators approached the Post-Crisis Superman retcons. Loeb & Sale simply never mention that Ma & Pa inexplicably allowed their unnaturally strong, fast, and tough son unfairly compete against other teenagers who had absolutely no chance of beating him because those creators knew that bringing that up wouldn't fit the story they were telling. You'll notice that Waid never has Superman bring up the Kents still being alive back in Smallville because he prefers them being dead. He's not contradicting anything by not bringing them up either. He's simply not mentioning it. So, creators who'd like to use the living Kents are free to do so while those who prefer Superman to be without his foster parents don't need to mention them being alive. Personally, I'd prefer Pa Kent to be dead myself, but I've come to realise that it'd be selfish of me to insist that all readers who enjoy reading about Superman and Pa Kent hanging out with each other be deprived of it because of me.

    Wonder Woman was a prominent member of the JSA in the 1940s (beyond being their "secretary"), whether or not that's valuable to you is kind of irrelevant as there are other readers and creators who do value that. You don't need to read those stories. It's as simple as that.
    The problem becomes that if we want to preserve the Golden Age history to be as close to how it actually happened as possible, that begs the question of what that means for her supporting cast. Because Steve and Etta are more important to her than her ties to Jay and Alan, and they aren't immortal. Do we preserve the Golden Age stories but pretend Steve and Etta weren't in them? Or does Steve die and get resurrected later, or does she fall in love with a grandson/great- grandson who is a dead ringer for her first boyfriend? What happens to Lyta in the interim, and how to we explain the OOC behavior of Diana leaving Man's World for a few decades before returning to join the JLA?

    I think preserving the GA stories (and all Pre-Crisis stories) as being how they actually happened is preferable, but it's not really workable with a merged Earth. The living status of the Kents is easier to acknowledge as a writer/reader sees fit than the confusion of Diana's timeline and the status of all the people in her life. Especially as we JUST got a rebooted origin story in 2016. Much like the Hawks, a distinction between an Earth-1 and Earth-2 Diana makes everything cleaner. If a Multiverse model isn't on the table, I can't see the characters or her mythos benefiting from this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I generally agree about Diana with the JSA, but I do prefer she be a founding member of the Justice League.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Yeah, whether they treat her that way or not, having your premier female hero help found your premier hero team makes the most sense.

    Yeah, the founding status with the JLA has never been a problem, and she's more connected to those characters. And other parts of the DCU, like Donna, are both connected to her and the JLA legacy, so there is a negative domino effect to removing it, whereas there isn't with the JSA aside from Lyta as her legacy and a friendship with Black Canary (which could also just easily form in the JLA).

    The modern usage of Diana in the JL franchise has more often than not been shitty, but that has nothing to do with her founder status.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 11-10-2022 at 06:57 PM.

  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member Mantis-Ray's Avatar
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    I've seen a lot of support from some people on Diana being a member of the JSA exactly on the grounds its makes so much sense since she's a long-lived character who sometimes starts out fighting in WWII.

    To give her more of her own thing so to speak.
    Last edited by Mantis-Ray; 11-10-2022 at 06:59 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis-Ray View Post
    I've seen a lot of support from some people on Diana being a member of the JSA exactly on the grounds its makes so much sense since she's a long-lived character who sometimes starts out fighting in WWII.

    To give her more of her own thing so to speak.
    How is that giving her her own thing?

  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member Mantis-Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    How is that giving her her own thing?
    An opportunity to appear in more stuff essentially.

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