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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    You make it sound as if being bleak means being of bad quality. It's a genre, not a flaw or virtue.

    As for an ending, Millar had nothing to do with Ultimatum. And when he returned he added a subtle fourth-wall joke: the very first scene is Nick Fury watching the damaged Triskelion and saying "I dissapear for ten minutes and the whole place goes to hell". It all makes sense in context (remember that Fury had been exiled to the Squadron Supreme universe before Ultimatum, and returned during it), but it can also be Millar's own reaction to the state of the Ultimate Marvel universe, that he had left in such a high note with the ending of Ultimates 2.
    That's a fair point there. And while "bleak" doesn't necessarily have to equal "bad," I do (somewhat) agree that it's a problem when the bleakness becomes more about shock value and edginess than making a valid and meaningful statement about humanity or society at large.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That's a fair point there. And while "bleak" doesn't necessarily have to equal "bad," I do (somewhat) agree that it's a problem when the bleakness becomes more about shock value and edginess than making a valid and meaningful statement about humanity or society at large.
    Not all works of fiction need to provide a moral at the end. Moral means a lesson taught with the aid of a fable. Sometimes we can see a work of fiction just to follow a compelling character and see him react to complex situations, just for the heck of it.

    And the fuel that drives a work of fiction is conflict, a conflict between the ideal state of things for the protagonist and the actual state of things. Sometimes it can everything right for the protagonist except for the villain of the week, whom he can defeat and then fight another. Or sometimes it can be a bleak context, where everything seems to go wrong for this character. And those are really bad... for them, the characters, but not for us, the spectators. A bleak context has the protagonist in non-stop action, without a second to relax, which means that idle moments are less likely to happen.


  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    Not all works of fiction need to provide a moral at the end. Moral means a lesson taught with the aid of a fable. Sometimes we can see a work of fiction just to follow a compelling character and see him react to complex situations, just for the heck of it.

    And the fuel that drives a work of fiction is conflict, a conflict between the ideal state of things for the protagonist and the actual state of things. Sometimes it can everything right for the protagonist except for the villain of the week, whom he can defeat and then fight another. Or sometimes it can be a bleak context, where everything seems to go wrong for this character. And those are really bad... for them, the characters, but not for us, the spectators. A bleak context has the protagonist in non-stop action, without a second to relax, which means that idle moments are less likely to happen.

    Another fair point, I'll concede.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #64
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    I guess you are right about that.

  5. #65

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    I liked Hitch's artwork on The Ultimates other than that the wring was just dumb fun, that sadly hasn't aged well.

    I've always preferred JMS and Gary Frank's Supreme Power and the various spin-off mini-series over the Ultimate Universe, especially "the more real superheroes as ******* and monsters" approach than any of Millar's work before, during, or after the Ultimate Universe.
    Last edited by Cyberstrike; 12-07-2022 at 08:59 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberstrike View Post
    I liked Hitch's artwork on The Ultimates other than that the wring was just dumb fun, that sadly hasn't aged well.

    I've always preferred JMS and Gary Frank's Supreme Power and the various spin-off mini-series over the Ultimate Universe, especially "the more real superheroes as ******* and monsters" approach than any of Millar's work before, during, or after the Ultimate Universe.
    Funny enough, they did have an Ultimate Marvel/Supreme Power crossover at one point . . . with some lasting consequences like Zarda in the Ultimate Universe and Fury in the Supreme Universe.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  7. #67

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    Anyone find it curious that they announce all of this after we made all our comments on this thread. I get that stories are created way in advance but it feels like Hickman is watching us and gathering feedback on what an Ultimate Universe would look like given hindsight.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActualLibrarian View Post
    Anyone find it curious that they announce all of this after we made all our comments on this thread. I get that stories are created way in advance but it feels like Hickman is watching us and gathering feedback on what an Ultimate Universe would look like given hindsight.
    I don't think they'd be able to do that, given that they would then have to give due credit or risk being legally liable for creative theft, or something akin to that.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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