BEN DOWN SO LONG: ASM14 Spoilers and Review

[Pav]

Friends of Ben! Spider-Clone enthusiasts! It's that time once again: a new comic book featuring the Sensational Spider-Man, our boy, Ben Reilly!

DISCLAIMER: I PREFER BEN REILLY BE WRITTEN AS THE HERO HE IS. I DO NOT THINK BEN REILLY IS / SHOULD BE CAPABLE OF ANYTHING BEYOND WHAT PETER PARKER IS CAPABLE OF DOING. BEN REILLY IS PETER PARKER. PETER PARKER IS NOT A VILLAIN. BEN REILLY IS NOT A VILLAIN.

But Marvel clearly wants to make him one, and I'm going to read Ben's story.

And so I have! It's... fine! It's fine.

...

Realistically, no matter what the creative team wants to do with Ben - like with any character - I just want to read well-written stories. If Ben's going to be a villain, I at least want to believe his motivation, his characterization -- and this has been the problem with earlier attempts. Let's do a read-through together and see whether or not this take has anything to enjoy...

1) The story starts in SPRING, presumably not long after the events of the Beyond storyline. Janine has come home and finds Ben messing with some tech that he's raided from another Beyond safe house. I like that Ben has continued his vendetta against Beyond, and I would like to see him develop more spider-tech from his raids; it's been too long since he's added his own tech to his arsenal. Also like seeing Janine as the voice of reason, but it's a bummer to once again see Ben suffering under the weight of negative memories. It's like writers just can only see one story possibility for Ben, which I just can't wrap my mind around.

2) Later, we see Janine at Grand Central Station. Apparently she's afraid that things are going bad with Ben, and it's hurting her enough that she's decided to leave. Except the guy she's talking with recognizes her as an escaped convict, and he's not going to let her go anywhere! So! Janine stabs him in the hand, breaks the leg blocking her way, and runs... back to Ben with an epiphany: she tired of trying to fit in with a world that doesn't want her; she loves Ben and is willing to burn down the world for him! And as much as I don't like these characters becoming villainous, I will admit that I get it from Janine's perspective. It doesn't feel like her becoming a villain so much as it's her saying she's no longer willing to be a victim, and that's how it SHOULD read, I think. These characters should be sympathetic, even if we disagree with their choices. PLUS, honestly, I still can't believe it's 2022 and we're reading stories that not only involve Ben but also involve Janine! Like, who ever thought we'd see her again before Beyond? I can appreciate that she's being used at all, even if the creative choices aren't what I would do. But I will admit: seeing Ben and Janine as this new super-powered ride-or-die couple is kind of enticing.

2.5) Loved the end of spring with Ben making a joke. It's good to see he's still himself, if only partially.

3) SUMMER comes, and Ben is hanging out somewhere he says he shouldn't be. He expects Peter to show up, but apparently Peter is off with Norman to save MJ. Suddenly, some guy looking to collect money from Peter walks up on Ben and mistakes him for Peter. Ben enjoys saying some angsty things and walks away. We switch scenes to Ben and Janine back in their lab(?) and Ben is using Beyond tech to travel into Limbo. It's calling him "home."

Within Limbo, the demons of both Madeline Pryor and Ben are saying very nasty things about their status as clones: "nothing person" and "never be real" and that kind of thing. Ben and Madeline bond over the similarities their demons show, and watch as they meet and fight each other. Pryor: "The only thing familiarity breeds is..." and Ben: "That'll keep 'em quiet." Ben introduces himself as Chasm and shares his story, with Madeline replying that their shared origins - "others who know my pain" -- and her status as Queen of Limbo pulled him to her. And honestly? I actually kind of like their interaction here! The writing is clever in regards to their inner demons being manifested, but I also still feel like Ben SOUNDS like Ben. He's snarky here, not angsty. AND THE ART HERE IS AWESOME. Ben's suit especially hasn't looked cooler than it does in this section, especially in the panels where he meets Madeline.I'm going to assume -- and I hope I'm wrong -- that Madeline's comments about making Limbo and home for people like her and Ben won't be developed in terms of having other clones join their new club. I think that could be fun, especially if they continued to touch different parts of the Marvel Universe. It's always fun to see Ben make new connections, but again, I have a feeling that isn't going to happen.

4) Anyway, now it's FALL and the events of the FCBD have happened. Janine has joined Ben and Madeline in Limbo, and she's tired of feeling helpless and powerless. So Madeline stabs her with the finger of S'ym and names her Hallows' Eve, with powers based on the refused masks that society demanded she wear. We don't know exactly what she can now do, but it's possible wearing different masks will give her different powers...?

5) WINTER comes and Ben is once again confronted by the man who wants money from Peter. Ben beats the crap out of him and takes him to Limbo so that Madeline can experiment. Okay, I LOVE Chasm's "Hi, dear" to Hallows' Eve! Madeline makes Gus the Bad Guy Ben Brought eat some weird Limbo fruit and it allows her to suck out his soul, which potentially points to their actual plan: will Madeline and Ben steal the souls of Peter Parker and Jean Grey?!?! I don't know! But what I can say is that I like the potential connection to Sensational 23, where Peter glimpses Ben's soul as a photon of light. That was again referenced in PAD's run, so I like that consistent portrayal of souls in stories involving Ben.

So, that's the issue. And honestly? As much as I'd rather Ben just be Spider-Man, I don't think this issue was written badly. Ben and Janine feel consistent who with they've been in past issues, and I understand why they're doing what they're doing. I don't see either of them laughing maniacally or doing evil things just to do them. So far, they still read as themselves -- good people who have been pushed beyond their limits. I only hope it works out well for them in the long run.

Honestly, the biggest problem I had with the issue is that we STILL don't know what Ben's new powers are! What do his glowy green webshooters do other than look cool? I was hoping to find out in this issue.But the costume does look cool.

Thanks for reading, and I hope you'll share your thoughts on the issue!

-Pav, who really enjoyed all four Marvel comics that he read today...

[Sr. Bungle]

Great read as always!
But in subject of understanding why they're doing what they're doing...why would Ben want to lay siege to New Yourk possibly killing lots of civilians?

[Malachi]

Not laughing maniacally? They are waging war on NY! With an army of demons! To steal Peters soul!
If you put the bar so low that you literally want Ben to grow a mustache and twirl it while laughing then you won’t de disappointed seeing how that would be asinine even for marvel.

Ben doesn’t remember loving Janine or much of anything. Him kissing her is her looking less then pleased.

Ben has no character anymore. He has been strip mined so all that is left is anger and pain. I would go one step further and say that he can’t be a dark reflection of Peter anymore because they removed those parts from him. He is just broken.

Janine for some reason learns how to operate Beyond tech. Has a breakdown so complete that she becomes part demon and nothing of the tragedy part in the end of Beyond is here. What really is left of Janine the character?

None of my statements here about character should be taken at complete value. I am not interested in discussing if Ben or Janine is 5% or 10% the same as they were before. That’s not the point I am making. I am so damn irritated at this crap that hyperbole will be used.

I can’t understand you at all Pav. You are free to like or dislike it but when reading a post like this I don’t see optimism. I see endorsement. I see enjoyment. You have stated before that in hindsight PAD’s run wasn’t that great. I would not be surprised if this comic will be ranked lower in the future, much lower.

This is the worst Ben Reilly comic I have ever read. We thought killing him back in the 90’s was bad. We thought Slott’s Jackal 2.0 was bad. Well marvel just keeps trying and here we are. Not in Limbo but something much closer to hell.

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, what Malachi said. This is dogshit, and neither a novel nor refreshing direction for either Ben or Madelyne.

[Pav]

I can’t understand you at all Pav. You are free to like or dislike it but when reading a post like this I don’t see optimism. I see endorsement. I see enjoyment. You have stated before that in hindsight PAD’s run wasn’t that great. I would not be surprised if this comic will be ranked lower in the future, much lower.

I did enjoy reading it. I enjoy comics. I enjoy stories, and I'm able to enjoy reading a story even if I don't always agree with the choices the creative teams make. And you're right: maybe in the future, when this story is completely told and I can read it from beginning to end, I will be more focused on its flaws and find it unnecessary to ever read again, but FOR NOW I am willing to enjoy the ride. Essentially, I CHOOSE to find reasons to enjoy the comics I buy. I CHOOSE to enjoy myself. Very rarely have I read a comic that instantly put a bad taste in my mouth.

You don't have to understand it, just like I don't have to understand why people read comics they don't enjoy, or why people can't seem to appreciate a story even if there are aspects they don't care for.

As far as endorsement? That's silly. I've made it clear that I prefer Ben as a hero. And anyway, I'm just some guy. My endorsement means nothing, beyond being someone who grew up with and highly values and appreciates the 90s Clone Saga. People love to hate on that era, but I've always found so much of value -- maybe because I'm willing to look in the first place. Ben being a villain isn't what I want, but I'm willing to see what there is to appreciate in this story. Slott had me until Ben decided to take over the world; and if Ben's invasion of NYC sees him doing some legit evil things, I'll not be enjoying that. Until then, I'll hope that this story sees Ben redeemed, at least to some degree.

Also, there's this difference: some readers prefer their favorites remain in story limbo rather than read stories that don't get the character right, take them in the "wrong" direction, etc. And there's nothing wrong with that position. But I waited twenty years for Ben to come back, and I'm not afraid of him being in bad stories. I'm just glad he's IN stories. And I hope that eventually, the right writer comes along and finally gives us an excellent new story that the majority of Ben fans can enjoy. For now, if Ben's going to be in some mediocre stories, I can deal with that. And that's just my personal position on the matter. I go into every issue expecting there'll be things I like and things I don't like, but at least I get to read about Ben and Janine in the first place.

-Pav, who can't believe Janine Godbe is back and now has powers...

[Blanks]

I’m willing to accept the Chasm era of Ben as being his “superior Spider-Man” era. This characters will always “reset” eventually.

I’m still not sure how I like it. I refused to buy the book, and I’m standing by it. But I read it, just so I could get a taste, and that taste was revolting.

I’ll just way trade wait it, depending on how I see y’all’s feedback here on this site….

[Sr. Bungle]

I agree with the last part. I'd rather have Ben used badly than dead.

[Pav]

I agree with the last part. I'd rather have Ben used badly than dead.

Having a Spider-Bros comic in which Peter, Ben, and Kaine team-up on the regular and treat each other as family would be awesome! Ben deciding to travel the country but leaving on good terms with Peter and renewing their brotherhood would be sensational! So am I bummed that we ONCE AGAIN see that "Telling stories with Ben that can't be told with Peter" essentially equates to "Ben is the villain again?!?!" Yes. That bums me out. I wish something more creative would be done with Ben.

BUT! Off the top of my head, here are things that make me interested in the story:

Will Ben redeem himself in the end?
If not, can writers maintain the dignity of his character even as an antagonist?
What are Ben's new powers?
What are Janine's new powers?
What will be their roles beyond just this storyline?
Will we see the return of Maxine Danger?
What will happen to Ben if he doesn't become healed?
Will Chasm, Hollows' Eve, Queen Goblin, and Norman finally come together to get everyone's sins and souls sorted?
Will Ben and Madeline maintain any kind of relationship after Dark Web?
Will Madeline and Jean Grey reach any kind of tentative understanding between themselves?
Will Firestar know that Chasm is Ben, aka "her" Scarlet Spider?

Curiosity killed the cat,
but satisfaction brought it back.

-Pav, who is hoping to be satisfied by at least some of the answers...

[Sr. Bungle]

Having a Spider-Bros comic in which Peter, Ben, and Kaine team-up on the regular and treat each other as family would be awesome! Ben deciding to travel the country but leaving on good terms with Peter and renewing their brotherhood would be sensational! So am I bummed that we ONCE AGAIN see that "Telling stories with Ben that can't be told with Peter" essentially equates to "Ben is the villain again?!?!" Yes. That bums me out. I wish something more creative would be done with Ben.

BUT! Off the top of my head, here are things that make me interested in the story:

Will Ben redeem himself in the end?
If not, can writers maintain the dignity of his character even as an antagonist?
What are Ben's new powers?
What are Janine's new powers?
What will be their roles beyond just this storyline?
Will we see the return of Maxine Danger?
What will happen to Ben if he doesn't become healed?
Will Chasm, Hollows' Eve, Queen Goblin, and Norman finally come together to get everyone's sins and souls sorted?
Will Ben and Madeline maintain any kind of relationship after Dark Web?
Will Madeline and Jean Grey reach any kind of tentative understanding between themselves?
Will Firestar know that Chasm is Ben, aka "her" Scarlet Spider?

Curiosity killed the cat,
but satisfaction brought it back.

-Pav, who is hoping to be satisfied by at least some of the answers...

He just killed a man. Granted he was an evil man, but he didn't know that.

[Malachi]

I did enjoy reading it. I enjoy comics. I enjoy stories, and I'm able to enjoy reading a story even if I don't always agree with the choices the creative teams make. And you're right: maybe in the future, when this story is completely told and I can read it from beginning to end, I will be more focused on its flaws and find it unnecessary to ever read again, but FOR NOW I am willing to enjoy the ride. Essentially, I CHOOSE to find reasons to enjoy the comics I buy. I CHOOSE to enjoy myself. Very rarely have I read a comic that instantly put a bad taste in my mouth.

You don't have to understand it, just like I don't have to understand why people read comics they don't enjoy, or why people can't seem to appreciate a story even if there are aspects they don't care for.

As far as endorsement? That's silly. I've made it clear that I prefer Ben as a hero. And anyway, I'm just some guy. My endorsement means nothing, beyond being someone who grew up with and highly values and appreciates the 90s Clone Saga. People love to hate on that era, but I've always found so much of value -- maybe because I'm willing to look in the first place. Ben being a villain isn't what I want, but I'm willing to see what there is to appreciate in this story. Slott had me until Ben decided to take over the world; and if Ben's invasion of NYC sees him doing some legit evil things, I'll not be enjoying that. Until then, I'll hope that this story sees Ben redeemed, at least to some degree.

Also, there's this difference: some readers prefer their favorites remain in story limbo rather than read stories that don't get the character right, take them in the "wrong" direction, etc. And there's nothing wrong with that position. But I waited twenty years for Ben to come back, and I'm not afraid of him being in bad stories. I'm just glad he's IN stories. And I hope that eventually, the right writer comes along and finally gives us an excellent new story that the majority of Ben fans can enjoy. For now, if Ben's going to be in some mediocre stories, I can deal with that. And that's just my personal position on the matter. I go into every issue expecting there'll be things I like and things I don't like, but at least I get to read about Ben and Janine in the first place.

-Pav, who can't believe Janine Godbe is back and now has powers...

At some point Ben stops being Ben. Of all the things I liked with the character what remains? His blonde hair. I think that sums it up.

There are so many holes in this comic that I would think it’s a metaphor for Ben.

You are just some guy. I am just some guy. We both like Ben Reilly, a very niche character. We don’t have to agree but I want to understand. For me that desire is very human.

[Pav]

He just killed a man. Granted he was an evil man, but he didn't know that.

Technically, Madeline Pryor killed him.

And anyway, how many people has Kaine killed? But give him a good redemption story and people are willing to forgive and forget.

Same will hopefully eventually happen with Ben.

-Pav, who wants to see Kyle Hotz draw Chasm vs Carnage...

[Pav]

At some point Ben stops being Ben. Of all the things I liked with the character what remains? His blonde hair. I think that sums it up.

It's going to be up to the individual. Plenty argue that clones of Ben don't constitute the same character. I don't happen to feel that way, personally. But other arguments can be made too: was Ben the same character under JMD and Howard Mackie? And think about other characters: is Sherlock Holmes not "real" when he isn't written by Conan Doyle? Some people love the additions that other authors have made to the Holmes mythos; others, I have to imagine, are absolute purists and see nothing to appreciate outside of Conan Doyle's works.

It's all just about what we like and don't like. You stop seeing this as Ben because, in your mind, he no longer acts like the character he once was. On the other hand, I am willing to accept the in-story reasons for his actions / heel turn, even if I don't agree with the writer's choices for Ben -- and even if I think the reasons themselves are weak, I accept them AS the story's rationale. And while fictional characters play by different rules than actual real persons, I am willing to accept certain realities like 1) In real life, people are not always consistent in their actions; 2) Comics are created by different people over decades and decades and different creative teams will have varying views on how to successfully write a character, what might be a good idea for a character, etc.

For me, this is Ben Reilly, a character I've loved since I was a kid. This is his story, like it or not. Just as I have times in my life that were rough, that I wish didn't happen, I am willing to accept that Ben's story is going to have within it smaller stories that I may not like. But I love the character and hope to see him come out the other side, better for it.

And honestly, I do think having a degree in Literature has helped me learn to appreciate texts even if I don't like them. I find Tolkien to be boring, but I understand why people find his writing beautiful and empowering. I love One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, even though Nurse Ratched is a character that I loathe and despise above all others. I can read something "boring" like The Razor's Edge and find a lot to love about it. It was an honest pleasure to participate in literature conversations in the classroom, a pleasure that most others haven't had the opportunity to enjoy for themselves.

So yeah. I dunno. I don't think my perspective is crazy. I think enjoying what we read is important, especially when we're spending legit money buying monthly issues of comic books. Why read them if not to enjoy them?

I appreciate you attempting to understand my perspective without negative judgment, sincerely. I've felt in the past that some people are too ready to jump down the throats of people who dare to enjoy what they cannot find it within themselves to enjoy.

-Pav, who (to be fair) always loved the idea of Ben bonded with Carnage...

[Refrax5]

As much as I don't agree with the direction they've taken Ben, this wasn't a poorly written issue. Both he and Janine felt like tragic figures and I felt sympathy towards them. I also, weirdly, felt like this is the most Ben sounded like himself (albeit a confused, villainous version of himself). Since his resurrection, I feel like his voice has been off. Good guy or bad guy, he just seemed too goofy or manic or too much like Peter. This felt more like the brooding, existential crisis having, somewhat bitter Ben I remember from the 90s....just warped into villainy.

Two things:
1) Didn't Beyond delete his memories of dying over and over? Why would he still have those?
2) I wonder if the fruit Maddie gave Ben corrupted him.

[Refrax5]

EDIT: I made a point somebody else already made. Nevermind.

[Sr. Bungle]

-Pav, who wants to see Kyle Hotz draw Chasm vs Carnage...

If they're going to keep Ben as Chasm I hope they do a mini drawn by Hotz.

Also, I wish he'd drawn the whole issue