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  1. #1
    JUST DO IT?!?! Postmania's Avatar
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    Default Rama (The Raid 2) vs MCU black widow

    Natasha has her shock batons/gauntlets

    Rama gets the two knives from his fight in the Raid 2

    Takes place in the kitchen from the raid 2
    Last edited by Postmania; 11-23-2022 at 03:16 PM.
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  2. #2
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    As amazing as Rama's soak is, it pales in comparison to Nat's. And she's better everywhere else. He's dead.
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  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    As amazing as Rama's soak is, it pales in comparison to Nat's. And she's better everywhere else. He's dead.
    Rama is faster and more skilled than Nat so I don't know where you're getting this from. BW gets by on a lot PIS in the movies. She'd good and would give Rama a fight but in the end Rama's coming out on top.

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    JUST DO IT?!?! Postmania's Avatar
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    It’s been a while so I guess I don’t remember nat being as superhuman as what big mentioned. I wouldn’t have given her the shock sticks otherwise
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    Mighty Member Kuro's Avatar
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  6. #6
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postmania View Post
    It’s been a while so I guess I don’t remember nat being as superhuman as what big mentioned. I wouldn’t have given her the shock sticks otherwise
    You need to see her own movie for the biggest feats. Here are some highlights:

    Falls out of, I dunno, a 20 story building, smashes through a robust steel duct and lands on concrete. This does... nothing.

    Rolls then crashes a car at perhaps 150 kmh. This does... nothing.

    Gets oneshotted a long way back and off a bridge, falling, I don't know, 100 feet, into freezing shallow water. All of this (the hit, the fall, the temp) does... nothing.

    Gets a dude to viciously hit her in the face. The hits aren't even hard enough to do what she needs doing, so she breaks her own skull headbutting a massive desk. This blocks her nose to make sure she can't smell pheromones. It also has no effect whatsoever on her fighting ability.

    She basically has Fast and Furious level durability.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
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  7. #7
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    You need to see her own movie for the biggest feats. Here are some highlights:

    Falls out of, I dunno, a 20 story building, smashes through a robust steel duct and lands on concrete. This does... nothing.

    Rolls then crashes a car at perhaps 150 kmh. This does... nothing.

    Gets oneshotted a long way back and off a bridge, falling, I don't know, 100 feet, into freezing shallow water. All of this (the hit, the fall, the temp) does... nothing.

    Gets a dude to viciously hit her in the face. The hits aren't even hard enough to do what she needs doing, so she breaks her own skull headbutting a massive desk. This blocks her nose to make sure she can't smell pheromones. It also has no effect whatsoever on her fighting ability.

    She basically has Fast and Furious level durability.
    Some of these were covered previously in this thread here.

    The fall is pretty wild but she doesn't smash through any ducts, just bounces off them. It's also nowhere near 20 storeys. It's like 4 or 5 floors with her hitting stuff on the way down.

    The car crash is also a bit less impressive as they specifically have their seat belts on as noted in the thread.

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    JUST DO IT?!?! Postmania's Avatar
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    That does seem pretty out there. Makes it harder to place her in a rumble then if we take those high end feats as consistent though which still feels a bit iffy to me since the car stuff might not be as amazing as it looks (but the bridge thing probably is).

    Still not sure if she really is beating Rama in the nondurability categories though I suppose
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    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Car thing has too many asterisks on it, given the whole 'put your seatbelt on' thing.
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    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Car thing has too many asterisks on it, given the whole 'put your seatbelt on' thing.
    I don't think that's THAT much of an asterisk: the car is speeding along, has an explosive launch it in a backflip 30 feet in the air, it lands on what is basically a turbo tank, launches off of it, flips twice smashing through cars, rebounds off of both sides of the metro entrance, goes down a flight of stairs and finally stops. And they are completely fine, joking about it as they dash off to hide. Seatbelts don't help THAT much - cars in accidents at those speeds where the vehicle flips without bombs and whatever are often morgue calls. They would suffer from dozens of g's of force on their bodies numerous times during the event, slamming bones, heads, soft tissues off everything in the car and off of the belts themselves.

    Also, when they stop and you see them coming out of the car, neither of them are undoing seatbelts, nor are they in position to have been wearing them, suggesting that the seatbelts failed during the crash. THAT has an asterisk mind: it's roughly possible that they undid the belts between the car stopping and the camera showing them. But we never see a body fall down from being suspended in the belt that is then released or anything of the sort.

    Finally, while we do see Yelena listen to her big sister and try to put on a belt, we never see her actually succeed in putting it on, and more critically, Natasha is very clearly NOT wearing a seatbelt throughout the scene and we don't even see her make a move to put on one, all the while swerving and weaving and whatnot. She basically told Yelena to do a thing that she couldn't have done herself.

    It's not the MOST impressive of the durability scenes, but it's still pretty impressive and acts as support for the other feats. Do they make sense? Not really, but they are what they are.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  11. #11
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postmania View Post
    That does seem pretty out there. Makes it harder to place her in a rumble then if we take those high end feats as consistent though which still feels a bit iffy to me since the car stuff might not be as amazing as it looks (but the bridge thing probably is).

    Still not sure if she really is beating Rama in the nondurability categories though I suppose
    I think Rama is probably marginally better as a fighter, but doesn't hit any harder (she one-shots people all the time), she's marginally more agile, and her durability edge means she can afford to eat more hits. I'd favor her marginally just for that. Giving her the batons and gauntlets is a bridge too far - she doesn't need to hit him hard to take him down, just graze him, and she'll get that done.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  12. #12
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    I don't think that's THAT much of an asterisk: the car is speeding along, has an explosive launch it in a backflip 30 feet in the air, it lands on what is basically a turbo tank, launches off of it, flips twice smashing through cars, rebounds off of both sides of the metro entrance, goes down a flight of stairs and finally stops. And they are completely fine, joking about it as they dash off to hide. Seatbelts don't help THAT much - cars in accidents at those speeds where the vehicle flips without bombs and whatever are often morgue calls. They would suffer from dozens of g's of force on their bodies numerous times during the event, slamming bones, heads, soft tissues off everything in the car and off of the belts themselves.

    Also, when they stop and you see them coming out of the car, neither of them are undoing seatbelts, nor are they in position to have been wearing them, suggesting that the seatbelts failed during the crash. THAT has an asterisk mind: it's roughly possible that they undid the belts between the car stopping and the camera showing them. But we never see a body fall down from being suspended in the belt that is then released or anything of the sort.
    Asterisks, plural.

    1. We don't know if they were wearing belts. There is evidence - in the 'put on your seatbelt' thing - that it is intended. But okay, potentially not (even so, we don't know and there is clear intent);
    2. We can't see if they're taking the seatbelts off; there is time, maybe they took them off, maybe they weren't on to start with;
    3. If they did NOT have the seatbelts on, then what you describe and what is shown is so far beyond their presentation - as non-bullet-proof, non-blade-proof, humans who are clearly far above normal humans but are nonetheless capable of being killed by such, not able to stand there and let a crowd of people just whale on them, for example - that it's SMvsFL. As you note, she walks out of that crash just fine. Like, no worries at all.

    If she's that durable, she should be finding bullets mild inconveniences, or shrugging off hits from Bucky's metal arm.

    And we've had multiple movies prior to this demonstrating her capacities and presentation. It's not like this movie exists in isolation, and that's all we have on her.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 11-28-2022 at 12:06 PM.
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  13. #13
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    At this point, I'm just going to point at the rules sticky and note the SMvsFL section. Widow has a certain presentation, and while we can kind of handwave off all kinds of stuff as 'comic book peak human' or 'that's just how humans can be in comics', when it gets into 'welp, she'd need to be bulletproof or better to take that kind of a beating without a single injury', it's violating her presentation in all kinds of different ways.

    Put another way, Batman can grab the Flash and stab Zoom in the foot as many times as he wants in his career, we're still not believing it here until DC starts flat-out backing it up in his presentation.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 11-28-2022 at 11:58 AM.
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  14. #14
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    At this point, I'm just going to point at the rules sticky and note the SMvsFL section. Widow has a certain presentation, and while we can kind of handwave off all kinds of stuff as 'comic book peak human' or 'that's just how humans can be in comics', when it gets into 'welp, she'd need to be bulletproof or better to take that kind of a beating without a single injury', it's violating her presentation in all kinds of different ways.

    Put another way, Batman can grab the Flash and stab Zoom in the foot as many times as he wants in his career, we're still not believing it here until DC starts flat-out backing it up in his presentation.
    I hear what you say - I agree with you - I was just bringing up feats, feats that are, for whatever reason, somewhat consistent to her over time. She's suffered and pulled right on through a lot of ridiculous things in multiple films - in Winter Soldier, in Civil War, in Avengers, and the stuff in Black Widow was above and beyond all of that.

    The fact that bullets and blades hurt people who get hit by class 80+ individuals (NOTE: I'm not remotely claiming this for Nat) without turning into mist isn't a new thing. Comics and action movie writers aren't generally trying to be realistic. Here, we try to squish that stuff into a framework. Spider-Man has shown that he is most definitely not resistant to normal blades and bullets, but is highly, stupidly resistant to trauma that would inflict precisely the same kind of wounds, just a thousand times worse.

    The car feat isn't particularly out of line with the building-fall feat or the smacked off the bridge feat from the same film. None of them are massively out of line with the tank explosion feat from Civil War or the bunker-busted feat from Winter Soldier or the smashed through a glass wall with Cap behind his shield by an explosion from WS or a few feats from Avengers. They all show a absolutely unrealistic resistance to blunt trauma and compression wounds - by a character in superhero movies. I don't see a particularly compelling reason to not allow her extremely high "CBPH level" resistance to and soak of that kind of stuff. If her body were made of normal stuff, all of those things would cause multiple broken bones, torn soft tissues and concussions at least. Instead, she shrugs all of them off, often with literally no shown effects.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  15. #15
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    You need to see her own movie for the biggest feats. Here are some highlights:

    Gets oneshotted a long way back and off a bridge, falling, I don't know, 100 feet, into freezing shallow water. All of this (the hit, the fall, the temp) does... nothing.
    Looked into this one, 100 feet fall seems extremely generous. It's like 50 tops, I would pitch it closer to 40 myself.

    Also, water doesn't look particularly shallow, she sploshes into it.

    Clip, 03:23 for reference.



    I think when Taskmaster hits her and sends her flying like 10-12 feet or so and it winds her is pretty impressive. Rama definitely doesn't hit that hard. Same with the kick that sends her flying off the bridge, she's eating those hits and staying up.

    I think she's more durable than Rama is, for sure. But I don't think she's more skilled and he has a knife which he is very good with.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 11-29-2022 at 03:22 AM.

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