What do you think about Joss Whedon's influence on the MCU films?

[HollowSage]

But we got to see Vision actually fight in AoU compared to IW where they immediately nerfed him like they did with Hulk.

Russo's just didn't seem comfortable having Hulk or Vision with their full powerset or fighting ability active in the movies.

The Betty erasue bothered the heck out of me.

I know they had screenwriters but are they not heavily involved in that stage as well? Same with Feige.

Everyone has their favorites and are disappointed if they don’t get to shine in a big team up event. It doesn’t mean the writers or directors hate the characters or want to sideline them. Hulk plays a major role it just doesn’t involve him winning a fight. He was the only one who could use the gauntlet and not die. Vision had to take a L for the story to play out. It’s just how the story was written. It’s nothing against Vision.

It’s not unusual for a character to not use their full power set in service to a story. Imagine if Superman used his full power set in JL stories. Most of the League wouldn’t have anything to do.

I mean honestly Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel together should have been enough to take down Thanos but did anyone want to see that story?

[GAP]

Pulling off Avengers, and making it the biggest Marvel movie to date was no mean feat. So his impact isn't a small thing. That said, others, like Favreau and the Russos had more influence.

Is that so? I always assumed that it was so as Whedon's style is shown in the Post Avengers films.

I think Favreau established the "house style" more than Whedon, and that, as others have said, Gunn and the Russo Brothers had a greater impact in establishing both a better team formula and a much broader range for the MCU as a whole.

Having said that, I think his organizational skills and experience as a comic writer and TV show producer likely smoothed over a lot of possible hiccups the first Avengers movie had, and that Feige and others might have absorbed his skills in that are going forward.

But yeah, I think Favreau, Gunn and the Russos are the "Holy Trinity" of MCU cretaors.

I guess you are right about that. Joss did have some influence but not as much as I thought.

[chicago_bastard]

Whedon also handled certain characters worse than the Russos did. Whedon has trouble with idealistic characters like Steve Rogers. His Black Widow was oversexualized with the reviled line about being a monster. Hawkeye was mostly wasted in Whedon's Avengers. And we never got to see the Russos handle Coulson or Quicksilver because Whedon didn't have anything better to do than kill them off.

Maybe you are confusing Whedon with Favreau here. Whedon handled Black Widow exceptionally well in the first Avengers.

[AnakinFlair]

Really? Vision isn’t even in Avengers and AoU is his origin story. It’s a weird comparison to make since Infinity War and Endgame deal with so many more characters. Not everyone is going to get the same amount of screen time although both Hulk and Vision play pivotal roles in the story so there is that.

Not to mention Whedon literally wrote Hulk out of the MCU until he came back in Thor: Ragnarok.

But we got to see Vision actually fight in AoU compared to IW where they immediately nerfed him like they did with Hulk.

Russo's just didn't seem comfortable having Hulk or Vision with their full powerset or fighting ability active in the movies.

The Betty erasue bothered the heck out of me.

I know they had screenwriters but are they not heavily involved in that stage as well? Same with Feige.

For better or worse, Vision was the MacGuffin of Infinity War due to an Infinity Stone being a part of him. And while he had proven capable against human threats, he never had been up against an alien threat that knew how to handle the stones, nor had he ever been damaged that badly before. So I can forgive him being weakened.

As for Hulk- either the Russos or Disney wanted Smart Hulk going forward, so they gave him an arc that brought that about. I wouldn't say he was any less powerful as Smart Hulk, and though we never really got to see him in the final battle, he fought that battle with one arm.

For the record, I never liked Natasha and Bruce together. I felt that came out of left field and was some weird sort of ship that Joss had (and maybe he only did it to have the 'heartbreak' of the couple not being able to be together at the end). And yeah, what happened to Betty?

As for Joss- his greatest contribution was the first Avengers movie, and he was quickly overshadowed by others after that. His only lasting legacy is that he f'ing killed Pietro in AoU.

[Scott Taylor]

Man, you guys really are Betty shippers? She is the worst character. Her only contribution is who her daddy is in the comics.

What about Rick? He gets mentioned more as an easter egg than anything else. But, you know, the whole Hulk mythos is completely FUBARed in the MCU anyways.

[Rincewind]

Maybe you are confusing Whedon with Favreau here. Whedon handled Black Widow exceptionally well in the first Avengers.

Widow was definitely sexualized in Iron Man 2 by Favreau, but Whedon was not better. It really wasn't until Winter Soldier by the Russos that she became more fleshed out.

[chicago_bastard]

Widow was definitely sexualized in Iron Man 2 by Favreau, but Whedon was not better. It really wasn't until Winter Soldier by the Russos that she became more fleshed out.

She was fleshed out in The Avengers which is even more impressive given the fact that it was an ensemble movie with four bigger characters than her and therefore limited time to give her enough scenes.

So the fair comparison would be to look at the Avengers movies since Scarlett Johansson was only the fifth billed actor in these. In Winter Soldier she had the second billing behind Chris Evans so it should be expected that she would get more scenes to flesh her out (which wasn't even the case but I'll get to that later).

Even when putting Infinity War and Endgame together they still don't come close to what Whedon did with the character in only one ensemble movie. In Civil War she had third billing and her role in that movie is still a far cry from Whedon's movie where she had fifth billing.

So the Russos needed a movie where she had second billing to be able to flesh her out on par with what Whedon did with her in a big ensemble movie with four bigger characters. Shouldn't be surprising that I don't applaud them for that feat.

Funny anecdote: Initially Scarlett was supposed to wear some sexy bimbo outfit in one of her first scenes in Winter Soldier but Scarlett was so appalled by it that she refused to wear it and they had to change it. So much for the non-sexualisation by the Russos.

[Frontier]

Everyone has their favorites and are disappointed if they don’t get to shine in a big team up event. It doesn’t mean the writers or directors hate the characters or want to sideline them. Hulk plays a major role it just doesn’t involve him winning a fight. He was the only one who could use the gauntlet and not die. Vision had to take a L for the story to play out. It’s just how the story was written. It’s nothing against Vision.

It’s not unusual for a character to not use their full power set in service to a story. Imagine if Superman used his full power set in JL stories. Most of the League wouldn’t have anything to do.

I don't think it's a matter of favorites so much as just effectively executing the characters involved.

Hulk got to use the Infinity Gauntlet to bring everybody back but that doesn't mean his storyline or usage under the Russo's was handled well. Like skipping over his whole coming to terms with his Hulk self.

I mean honestly Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel together should have been enough to take down Thanos but did anyone want to see that story?

They came pretty close to that though!

For better or worse, Vision was the MacGuffin of Infinity War due to an Infinity Stone being a part of him. And while he had proven capable against human threats, he never had been up against an alien threat that knew how to handle the stones, nor had he ever been damaged that badly before. So I can forgive him being weakened.

I think the issue was so much that Vision had gotten to barely do anything at that point beyond fight Ultron, shoot down Rhodey, and then...get stabbed by the Black Order. So he never really got a chance to do all that much.

As for Hulk- either the Russos or Disney wanted Smart Hulk going forward, so they gave him an arc that brought that about. I wouldn't say he was any less powerful as Smart Hulk, and though we never really got to see him in the final battle, he fought that battle with one arm.

It wasn't until She-Hulk that we saw that Bruce was still an effective combatant as Hulk.

Man, you guys really are Betty shippers? She is the worst character. Her only contribution is who her daddy is in the comics.

What about Rick? He gets mentioned more as an easter egg than anything else. But, you know, the whole Hulk mythos is completely FUBARed in the MCU anyways.

I mean, Betty is a pretty important character to the Hulk mythos and to Bruce Banner for better or worse. I liked Liv Tyler in Incredible Hulk too, and considering how they handled it it's just hard for me to believe Bruce would completely move on from her.

Agreed on Rick and the MCU dropping the ball on the Hulk mythos though.

[AndrewCrossett]

Maybe you are confusing Whedon with Favreau here. Whedon handled Black Widow exceptionally well in the first Avengers.

To the point that Scarlett Johansson once said she would only do a solo movie if he directed it.

(Though there's a good chance that her opinion of him may have taken a hit more recently...)

[Thezmage]

Black Widow's panic attack scene in the first Avengers movie made me love the character almost instantly. Probably the best thing done with her in the movies

[Agent Z]

Maybe you are confusing Whedon with Favreau here. Whedon handled Black Widow exceptionally well in the first Avengers.

Whedon does sexualize Natasha, though not to the extent of Favreau.

[Colossus1980]

Has Favreau ever apologized for sexualizing Black Widow? Or has anyone ever called him out for that? If not why?

[krazijoe]

Has Favreau ever apologized for sexualizing Black Widow? Or has anyone ever called him out for that? If not why?

Apologize? A lot of how she was written was using her sexuality to help defeat dumb men. DId he do it in the confines of her character or just because?

[chicago_bastard]

Whedon does sexualize Natasha, though not to the extent of Favreau.

Not more than the Russos, their movies also have enough shots that are sexualizing her.

Has Favreau ever apologized for sexualizing Black Widow? Or has anyone ever called him out for that? If not why?

Scarlett did say her character was sexualized in Iron Man 2 without calling Favreau out by name. It was also more in a manner of saying those were different times and we've come a long way since then, so it didn't sound as if she meant it as an attack towards Favreau.

[Zero Hunter]

Has Favreau ever apologized for sexualizing Black Widow? Or has anyone ever called him out for that? If not why?

Using her sex appeal has always been one of Black Widows main weapons. Her name is literally a term for a women who uses sex to defeat men for christs sake.