Justice Society of America #1 Discussion/Spoilers

[Dataweaver]

The irony is that there was never a time in DC's history where the primary Earth had a 1976 PG.

But yes.

[Frontier]

Remember Johns’ “Metaverse” concept? How Earth 0 actually has the entire publication history of the characters incorporated, it just shifts in response to what DC does with Superman? I expect that’s the explanation for PG debuting in the 1970s. This PG version is from an old timeline that got erased, paralleling this version of Helena Wayne who will likely end the series by erasing her own timeline too.

How every Earth-2...

[D.Z]

The Metaverse only consistently shifts forward the Superman timeline ahead. At one point Barry is part of the old Metaverse Earth but the speedforce divided reality into Earth 1 and Earth 2.

The 1976 shown on pages has no Robin so it's not the exact old Earth 2 timeline.

[WonderScott]

It's a main universe book; it's just that Johns has co-opted the 20th century of Earth 0 to serve as a stand-in for Earth 2.

This is a follow-up to The New Golden Age, which in turn is a follow-up to Flashpoint Beyond; and the parts of Flashpoint Beyond that it's following up on are clearly and unequivocally set on Earth 0. That series ended with two developments central to the new JSA series: first, thirteen people were released into the timeline, triggering changes to the timeline (who the thirteen are is detailed further in The New Golden Age, which is serving as a springboard for a whole line of books, starting with Stargirl: the Lost Children and Justice Society of America); and second, Bruce preserved the Flashpoint Beyond timeline in a snow globe: the same one Selina uses in this issue to send Helena into the past.

This feels like an Earth 2 book because Johns is focusing (for now, at least) on those aspects of the timeline that are rooted in Earth 2 history. But it's taking place on Earth 0.

Here's what I think Johns' intent is: Earth 0's 20th century is now standing in for Earth 2, from 1939 to 1985, with a few tweaks (e.g., the removal of Superman and Batman, and the addition of the Thirteen). Meanwhile, the early 21st century is on a sliding timescale, and basically serves as a modernized and modified version of the pre-Crisis Earth 1 — that is, everything from Superman's debut to the present. Furthermore, Johns is introducing a potential future that captures elements of the Earth 2 Batman (and possibly the Earth 2 Superman as well) that don't fit into the past; basically, the idea is that in this future, Batman and possibly Superman become more like their Earth 2 counterparts and end up recapitulating much of that history. That's what the “18 years from now” scene is about: it's the equivalent of Earth 2 Batman's funeral, but recast as a future demise of Earth 0's Batman.

Some theorizing on my part: if this is indeed Johns' intent, then this means that the various Earth 1/Earth 2 crossovers from the Silver Age are now being recast as cross-rime events: Barry first encountered Jay by accidentally traveling back in time to 1961; this lead to the Justice Society reforming in 1962, and being visited by time-traveling members of the original Justice League. The crossover featuring the Seven Soldiers of Victory was already a time travel adventure; this just changes it to one where the “rescue parties” were formed from heroes coming from two eras rather than two Earths; and so on. This holds true right up through the Crisis on Infinite Earths, which ends with the bulk of the 20th century heroes and relevant supporting cast being time-skipped forward onto the early 21st century floating timeline. Depending on where the League's side of the Crisis falls on the floating timeline, that means that they were skipped forward at least 25 years (probably closer to 30 or even 35) and counting as the modern timeline slides forward.

This also takes advantage of the fact that Roy Thomas treated Earth 2 as progressing “in real time”, and incorporated the notion that the 1970s JSA was in fact thirty years older than the 1940s JSA. That's why the JSA's 20th century history works with actual publication dates instead of a compressed timescale.

Intriguing!

[WonderScott]

This book was definitely worth the wait. Geoff Johns still has a lot of magic left in him. Great to see so many familiar faces but lots of unexpected twists & turns for some of them. You can tell that Johns does his research as his passion for these characters comes out in the writing. I'm glad Mikel Janin took over for Bryan Hitch. Janin's art is delicate yet hits you in the face at the same time. It was great to see some classic elements of JSA history restored and I like all of the new characters introduced so far(something I rarely say) with Kyle Knight being the most interesting of them all. The daughter of Red Lantern has an intriguing personality. I wonder if the Red Flame that she gets her powers from is the same as the one that empowers Wonder Woman's enemy Zara High Priestess of the Crimson Flame?

I immediately thought of Zara too.

[WonderScott]

The art is beautiful - loved many of the panels and character designs.

I’m hoping this isn’t Huntress’s final costume design… she deserves something more impactful and dynamic.

Looking forward to more page-time and characterization of Harlequin’s Son.

Per Degaton is a lot more powerful and more handsome than prior incarnations. (I wonder what all that time-hopping and chrono-jumping does to one’s body and mind?) He’s pulling off some Extant-level localized time distortion skills here that make him a scary foe. Looking forward to the reveal of what exactly is making him take these extreme actions against JSAers and their foes.

Nice recap of who Helena Wayne is and her importance in the Bat and the Cat mythology. (Take a seat Damien.)

I knew the premise of the story from interviews, but wasn’t expecting these specific components - not a bad thing. I don’t want to know the story before I experience it!

I’d love to be in Johns’ and the DC offices that have all the characters’ pictures up on the wall with threads connecting them and all the (hyper)timelines together.

I’m intrigued enough to see where this all goes and how Helena assembles and protects and inspires a team of JSAers outside of their origin timelines. Kind of exciting that “anything” could happen, from my POV.

[InfamousBG]

I’m intrigued enough to see where this all goes and how Helena assembles and protects and inspires a team of JSAers outside of their origin timelines. Kind of exciting that “anything” could happen, from my POV.

I agree with this.

I am hoping to see some interesting interactions.

[bat39]

It was a great issue!

I love how they seem to be putting emphasis here on Helena being Catwoman's legacy as much as she is Batman's, and that her drive to rehabilitate villains comes from the fact that she's the daughter of a rehabilitated villain.

Interesting to see how they've retained the Power Girl-Huntress relationship. Sometimes the simple answers are the best ones! (Yeah, it does mean that PG might be pushing 90 while Helena is 25 but...comics!)

So I'm guessing that we're gonna be cycling through the following time periods in subsequent issues - 1940 (Golden Age JSA), 1976 (Bronze Age JSA), 1 Year Later (circa Helena's birth, and with Judy Garrick having returned) and 18 Years Later (the death of Batman, with the entire contemporary superhero community around, including a very Earth 2-looking Superman). 1976 interests me most of this bunch, especially in terms of how they handle her origin and presence in a pre-Superman world (she's definitely Kryptonian).

Its interesting that they're not covering the 90's or 2000's - possibly credence to the theory that the JSA 'skipped over' the period from their Bronze Age to the JLA era on the sliding timescale?

[Dataweaver]

Interesting to see how they've retained the Power Girl-Huntress relationship. Sometimes the simple answers are the best ones! (Yeah, it does mean that PG might be pushing 90 while Helena is 25 but...comics!)

Let's see: if PG was 20–25 when she first arrived in 1976, she would be 29–34 by the time of the Crisis on Infinite Earths. If that did indeed result in a time skip to the corresponding point on the sliding timeline, then she'd be… Mmm… 39–49 now. (Reasoning: Damian was conceived shortly before the Crisis; he's 13 now, meaning that it can't have been more than 14 years between the Crisis and the present. Maybe as little as ten years.) That means that 18 years from now, she'll be 57–67; and 26 years from now, she'll be 65–75.

Its interesting that they're not covering the 90's or 2000's - possibly credence to the theory that the JSA 'skipped over' the period from their Bronze Age to the JLA era on the sliding timescale?

It certainly doesn't hurt that theory. According to the sliding timeline published in Zero Hour #0, the Crisis on Infinite Earths happened approximately four years before Zero Hour, which was right in the middle of the 90s; if the Crisis happened “twelve years ago”, that would put 90s-related stuff roughly 6–10 years ago.

(Yes, I know this contradicts Johns saying that Batman Year One was 13 years ago. But Damian's age, which was also set by Johns in DCU Rebirth, also contradicts that, as do a host of other details. So I'm treating the 13 years in JSA#1 as a goof; it's closer to 20 years. And the Waynes weren't murdered 31 years ago; they were murdered closer to 38 years ago.)

[Dougbauer]

And there's no issue 2 for December. It Will be late for 01/11/23.

[MajorHoy]

And there's no issue 2 for December. It Will be late for 01/11/23.

Anybody who wants to discuss this further should see a separate thread:

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-date-slipping

[bat39]

Let's see: if PG was 20–25 when she first arrived in 1976, she would be 29–34 by the time of the Crisis on Infinite Earths. If that did indeed result in a time skip to the corresponding point on the sliding timeline, then she'd be… Mmm… 39–49 now. (Reasoning: Damian was conceived shortly before the Crisis; he's 13 now, meaning that it can't have been more than 14 years between the Crisis and the present. Maybe as little as ten years.) That means that 18 years from now, she'll be 57–67; and 26 years from now, she'll be 65–75.


It certainly doesn't hurt that theory. According to the sliding timeline published in Zero Hour #0, the Crisis on Infinite Earths happened approximately four years before Zero Hour, which was right in the middle of the 90s; if the Crisis happened “twelve years ago”, that would put 90s-related stuff roughly 6–10 years ago.

(Yes, I know this contradicts Johns saying that Batman Year One was 13 years ago. But Damian's age, which was also set by Johns in DCU Rebirth, also contradicts that, as do a host of other details. So I'm treating the 13 years in JSA#1 as a goof; it's closer to 20 years. And the Waynes weren't murdered 31 years ago; they were murdered closer to 38 years ago.)

I think Power Girl has canonically been around 20 when she arrived on earth. If we assume she was 30 at the time of COIE, a decade later, and then 'jumped' forward to the sliding timescale (as per your theory), then she would have been reinserted to the timeline maybe around a decade ago (that's how long ago I think COIE was, Johns' 13 year timeline notwithstanding. So she'd be in her early forties now and maybe pushing 70 in Helena's time.

Yeah, it kinda works.

As for Johns timeline...well, even if we take it at face value, we can just assume that the frame from Year One was just a visual reference and doesn't mean that Year One took place 13 years ago...it just means that 13 years ago Selina wore her original costume and set out on a crime spree that led to her encountering Dr. Fate (as per the museum scene from The New Golden Age). The Wayne murders were 31 years ago according to Johns' timeline though...maybe we can assume though that Bruce became Batman 15 years later (i.e. 16 years ago). Which would mean that Damian would have to have been conceived during Year Two or Year Three which does technically work with some retconning. But f#ck it!

[D.Z]

Crisis could still be on the sliding timescale.

[Robotman]

And there's no issue 2 for December. It Will be late for 01/11/23.

Uh oh. Never a good sign when a Geoff Johns project starts to get delayed. Hopefully this thing doesn’t take 3 years to get out all 12 issues.

[Dataweaver]

Crisis could still be on the sliding timescale.

I'm figuring that it is; and that it happens in 1985. Geoff made a point of referencing 1985 in the lead-up to Final Crisis as a stealth reference to the Crisis on Infinite Earths; so I think it's likely that he'll at least consider keeping that.