DCU Movies

[Frontier]

So I guess Flash really wasn't that good even setting aside the CG?

[HsssH]

So I guess Flash really wasn't that good even setting aside the CG?

I guess it was another lie by Gunn. Sure, he isn't going to say that it is shit, but maybe he shouldn't have said that this is the best he has seen this year either.

[Styles]

Funny thing is Muschiett is actually saying that was intentional

‘The Flash’ director claims “weird” CGI was intended: “We are in the perspective of The Flash”

Muschietti said: “We are in the perspective of The Flash. Everything is distorted in terms of lights and textures. We enter this ‘waterworld’, which is basically being in Barry’s POV [point of view].

“It was part of the design so if it looks a little weird to you that was intended,” he added.

[Vordan]

Agreed with everything but the need to have a big name villain. People want to see something new, and not just a recycled Marvel formula yes. But while it'd help, a bit, to have someone like Brainiac I don't think it's necessary. We need 'new' but that could be achieved with lesser known villains like Ultra-Humanite, Parasite, etc. I do believe in going as big as you can right out of the gate, because holding back for the sequel means you might not get that sequel at all, but I don't think we 'need' an A-list villain in Legacy, we just need a good Superman movie. If we get that, the rest works itself out.

True, it’s more important to just have *a* Superman villain we haven’t seen before then for it to be Brainiac necessarily. But Brainiac does have “brand awareness” thanks to his being used in the DCAU and in Injustice 2.

As for Waller and Peacemaker....I do think it would be best to leave them behind in the new DCU. The brand damage is so deep I support a scorched earth policy; anything connected to the DCEU needs to die and WB better hope that includes audience expectations too. I know that's not what Gunn is doing, but I feel like this might be a case of his ego more than anything. I think best case scenario right now is that the Peacemaker/Waller stuff is quarantined as an Elseworlds. Wrap up the story but leave it disconnected from the new stuff. Otherwise you have continuity problems before the new DCU has even started and I don't think you can build a successful shared universe on a fractured foundation.

Then again I'd be much happier if we weren't getting another shared universe at all, so what do I know?

I just don’t see the logic in “if Gunn does HBO Max shows with Waller and Peacemaker that’s going to cause Legacy to flop” since it’s unlikely either will have any connection to Legacy. The League needs to be recast because they’re going to be the ones showing up in each other’s movies, but Waller and Peacemaker are unlikely to interact with Superman.

Guardians of the Galaxy, in the eyes of the casual audience, was a team of complete nobodies versus a complete nobody villain, but it made 773 million dollars. Similarly, Antman was a complete nobody, but the movie made 519 million dollars. The third Guardians movie came out this year and made 810 million dollars. Iron Man made 585 million dollars.

There’s big caveat there: GOTG did well because it had the MCU brand. It was coming off of the success of the Avengers and that’s what boosted its box office. I’m doubtful a good DC movie starring minor characters can even do as well.

All of superhero movies bombs over the past years had bad reviews from critics and audience (except Suicide Squad, but there was a reason). Ant Man, Eternals, Black Adam, Shazam, now the Flash. So, it's really more about quality.

Currently The Flash is fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. It got ok reviews, I think part of the audience backlash might be because of WBD marketing it as “one of the greatest CMBs of all time”. Of course the gender split in audience members - Flash is something like 70/30 in favor of men - tells me that a lot more people likely stayed away because of Ezra Miller then WBD thought.

[Frontier]

I guess it was another lie by Gunn. Sure, he isn't going to say that it is shit, but maybe he shouldn't have said that this is the best he has seen this year either.

In fairness it wasn't just him, it seemed like practically everybody who had seen it had given it great reviews before the critics started chipping in now.

[Vordan]

In fairness it wasn't just him, it seemed like practically everybody who had seen it had given it great reviews before the critics started chipping in now.

Test audiences gave it good reviews and I bet that had to do with them believing the CGI would be better in the final film, which didn’t happen. Would be funny if Aquaman 2, which reportedly has tested horribly, ends up getting great reception and making the kind of money WBD thought Flash would make.

[TheCasualReader]

There’s big caveat there: GOTG did well because it had the MCU brand. It was coming off of the success of the Avengers and that’s what boosted its box office. I’m doubtful a good DC movie starring minor characters can even do as well.

Which is why I also listed Iron Man.

[Styles]

Flash is something like 70/30 in favor of men - tells me that a lot more people likely stayed away because of Ezra Miller then WBD thought.

That's not surprising, people have been speaking up against Miller including celebrities.

Issa Rae Says Hollywood Protects Ezra Miller, Who Is ‘Behaving Atrociously’

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

In fairness it wasn't just him, it seemed like practically everybody who had seen it had given it great reviews before the critics started chipping in now.

Here’s the thing: I will always give more weight to the opinions of creatives over the opinions of critics. And James Gunn obviously did genuinely like the movie since he put Andy Muschietti in charge of Brave and the Bold.

A lot of the criticism seems really couched in the controversy over Ezra Miller, which is an issue they need to address. But at the same time, people online do tend to skew into the more toxic elements of fandom.

[Colossus1980]

Story is always key.

Casual audiences do not care if the villain is some big name like Lex Luthor or Brainiac. They don't need big-name heroes either - that's a strange mistake people keep making despite the fact that Guardians of the Galaxy is incredibly popular.

Guardians of the Galaxy, in the eyes of the casual audience, was a team of complete nobodies versus a complete nobody villain, but it made 773 million dollars. Similarly, Antman was a complete nobody, but the movie made 519 million dollars. The third Guardians movie came out this year and made 810 million dollars. Iron Man made 585 million dollars.

Man of Steel had one of the most recognizable heroes in superhero history as its lead, and it made 668 million dollars.

You don't need a big name hero or a big name villain: you just need to make a good movie and if you want the immediate pull that Marvel/Disney movies have then you need to establish a good reputation with casual audiences.

How you explain the success of Venom? Not a critical darling and the story wasn't great but it still made huge money. The sequel did fairly well during the Covid period.

Suicide Squad? One of the worst reviewed DCEU movies yet it still made a ton of money, though it damaged the brand.

I think the MCU is in a bit of rude awakening with their shows and movies centering on nobodies. Yes stories matter, but so do the actors and actresses. IMO the general audience doesn't care enough about the heroes the MCU are currently promoting. I believe it's going to result in much lower BO and ratings for the movies and shows. Seems the company is forcing the nobodies instead of letting characters become popular organically.

[Robotman]

True, it’s more important to just have *a* Superman villain we haven’t seen before then for it to be Brainiac necessarily. But Brainiac does have “brand awareness” thanks to his being used in the DCAU and in Injustice 2.

I just don’t see the logic in “if Gunn does HBO Max shows with Waller and Peacemaker that’s going to cause Legacy to flop” since it’s unlikely either will have any connection to Legacy. The League needs to be recast because they’re going to be the ones showing up in each other’s movies, but Waller and Peacemaker are unlikely to interact with Superman.

There’s big caveat there: GOTG did well because it had the MCU brand. It was coming off of the success of the Avengers and that’s what boosted its box office. I’m doubtful a good DC movie starring minor characters can even do as well.


Currently The Flash is fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. It got ok reviews, I think part of the audience backlash might be because of WBD marketing it as “one of the greatest CMBs of all time”. Of course the gender split in audience members - Flash is something like 70/30 in favor of men - tells me that a lot more people likely stayed away because of Ezra Miller then WBD thought.

With as dire as the situation is for DC/WB, they need to go big with Superman: Legacy. Brainiac is a must. There literally may be no second chances for this new Superman if it bombs. No Thanos like build up. Just go balls out from the get go and bring on the skull ship hovering over Metropolis.

Regarding The Flash audience, Ezra as the star is absolutely killing the movie. I know a few people who like superhero flicks but aren’t going to see the Flash because of Ezra. My sister absolutely loves Michael Keaton and that version of Batman but she’s not sure if she can bring herself to watch the movie because of Ezra Miller.

From the New York Times review:

"I liked 'The Flash' well enough while watching it," Manohla Dargis writes in a review of the new DC Comics superhero movie starring Ezra Miller. "But thinking and writing about it and everything that has gone down has been dispiriting."

[bat39]

So I just watched The Flash and...I loved it! It's not one of the "greatest superhero movies of all time" for sure, but it's definitely among the best DCEU movies, and possibly the best DC movie of the last few years (with the obvious exception of The Batman).

First of, and I don't give a f#ck how 'problematic' it may sound, Ezra Miller does brilliant work in the movie. It's almost as though Miller, and Muschetti, realizes that the JL Flash characterization wasn't gonna fly at all, so they literally denounced it by reinventing the 'main' Barry to be more mature and a lot closer to the comic-book version, while letting alternate Barry adopt the JL Flash characterization and call him out on it! Miller's performance really shines through in the interactions between the two Barry's, where you forget that they're played by the same actor a lot of the time.

Kiersey Clemmons made for a decent enough Iris, and I liked her chemistry with Ezra's Barry.

Michael Keaton steals the show as Batman. As I'd expected, the theatre erupted in cheers with pretty much every big moment/reveal with him - his first appearance, his first appearance in the suit, the Batcave reveal, the Batmobile reveal, the Batwing reveal, "You wanna get nuts"...Keaton's performance really feels authentic to his interpretation of the character from the Burton films, but at the same time, there is a slightly different note in there as well - of an older, wiser Bruce Wayne who's a little more at peace with himself, but who nonetheless misses the action as Batman and really revels in having a reason to put on the cowl again (shades of DKR for sure!)

Ben Affleck puts in a pretty solid performance as Batman too. Again, it feels true to his appearances in the earlier DCEU films, but at the same time a bit different - in many ways a 180 from where we saw the character right at the start of BvS. This is Affleck playing the 'superhero' Batman, the 'Caped Crusader' rather than the 'Dark Knight', decked out in a Silver Age-ish blue cape and cowl and leading the Justice League. The perfect culmination to this Batman's emotional journey over the course of these films.

The portrayal of both Batmen, but Batfleck in particular, really gives me high hopes for Brave and the Bold, since Andy Muschetti is helming that.

Sasha Calle is a pretty good Supergirl - the little bit we get of her anyway. She's less the sweet 'Girl Next Door' from the CW show and more akin to the rageful and power-packed New 52 version. I really hope she gets to return as the character.

Plot-wise, it's a pretty faithful adaptation of Flashpoint, obviously with some elements rejigged.

spoilers:

I actually didn't think Thawne's removal from the story was as bad as I was worried it would be - I think 'Dark Flash', if that's what we're calling him, worked pretty well in context. Of course, it does make me wonder if Muschetti (and Miller too who helped with the script) watched the CW show - there's definitely a lot of parallels to the Season 3 Savitar story-arc, which ironically enough, was also kickstarted by Flashpoint. I think it was really clever to give us the origin-story via time-travel/alternate timeline. That way, the first-ever Flash film does have the origin-story, albeit done in a way that advances the Flashpoint plot. Actually, the film works as an 'origin story' on multiple levels - we literally get to see the Flash's iconic origin play out, but it's also specifically the origin-story of alternate Barry, who becomes the Dark Flash and the closest thing we have to a Big Bad in this movie. And it's also a kind of 'origin story', or rather a 'Year One'-ish story, for the main Barry, as he matures into the more familiar and iconic version of the character.

end of spoilers

I personally enjoyed the hell out of the cameos. I didn't think the CGI models were too bad...some of them were actually pretty impressive. They made sense within the weird artistic sensibilities of those 'Chronobowl' sequences.

spoilers:

I particularly enjoyed George Reeves' black-and-white world, which also included Jay Garrick. Having Teddy Sears play Garrick instead of JWS was...a choice. But I suppose it makes sense on one level - this would be a younger Jay during the Golden Age, rather than JWS's aged version of the character. I felt the Christopher Reeve/Helen Slater team-up was pretty well done too. Didn't care much for the Adam West one...almost blink-and-you-miss-it. Laughed out loud at the Nicholas Cage one. And they actually got him to fight that damn spider that's been speculated and mocked for three decades now I enjoyed Gadot's Wonder Woman cameo at the start. The Momoa Aquaman cameo in the post-credits scene was kinda funny, but not so enjoyable. I think it's a crying shame that we didn't get a real Henry Cavill cameo though, apart from the shirtless CGI reconstruction in the Chronobowl - especially since the plot of this movie to a large extent hinges on his solo movie! If this is truly the last hurrah of the DCEU, then not letting Cavill have one last moment to shine is a damn shame.

end of spoilers

Last, but not least, we come to THAT ending and its possible implications for the future of the DCEU/Gunn's DCU.

spoilers:

Batman & Robin, I'm almost ashamed to say, was the first live-action Batman film I ever watched, as a kid. So I've always had a bit of a soft corner for George Clooney's take on the character. The film is crap of course, objectively speaking. But 25 years is long enough to punish it, and its star. In that spirit, I was glad to see him being acknowledged in this nostalgia fest for past DC productions. That said, I'm not quiet sure what to make of that ending. It has a bit of a 'joke' vibe to it (especially with Barry's tooth falling off!). I mean, obviously its a parallel to Barry meeting the New 52 Bruce at the end of the original story, but this is nowhere near as serious a scene (imagine if Keaton's Batman had written a letter to Clooney's Batman though, LOL). But Clooney definitely isn't going to be the Batman of Gunn's DCU. I've mostly kept away from spoilers before watching the film, but I'm vaguely aware that the film was originally supposed to establish Keaton's Batman in the rebooted DCEU, so I guess originally it would have been him in that scene. I get that Keaton isn't gonna be Batman in Gunn's DCU, but I'm sure what putting Clooney there accomplishes plot-wise in terms of tying this film's ending to the reboot. The post-credit scene with Momoa does set the stage for Aquaman 2 to be set in the post-Flash rebooted timeline. And with the joke about Momoa's Aquaman being a kind of multiversal constant, in contrast to the ever-changing Bruce Waynes, I suppose we have a rationale for him continuing to play the character in Gunn's DCU as well - irrespective of if Gunn's DCU is the same timeline as the end of this film or not. Barry saying "they were all Bruce Wayne, but different people" in that scene muddies waters a bit too, or maybe I'm overthinking it...to me it seemed like it leaves some leeway open to suggest that Barry's time-traveled again a few times in a bid to fix things and restore Batfleck, so Clooney's Bruce has already been rewritten and replaced by whoever will be Gunn's new Bruce. But I dunno. I suppose if there is a Batman cameo in Aquaman 2 that's been retained, we'll get a better idea of how things stand. Irrespective, this film does leave Gunn a lot of options in terms of how to proceed with his new universe. Its entirely possible for Supergirl to be completely recast along with Superman, or Sasha Calle could totally return as well as a new incarnation of Kara Zor-El. Gunn can treat the timeline at the end of this film as his rebooted DCU (albeit, with the Clooney Bruce thing being fixed by further off-screen time-travel by Barry), which means that Aquaman 2 is in continuity with his reboot and Momoa stays as Aquaman. He can treat his rebooted DCU as a totally different timeline from the ending of this film and still justify the retention of the Suicide Squad/Peacemaker cast, or anyone else he wants to retain. Bruce's explanation of how time-travel and the multiverse works actually leaves a lot of room for all kinds of permutations.

end of spoilers

And what of Ezra Miller himself? Well, honestly, I just hope he gets his day in court, and if he's guilty of an actual crime, he should face consequences for it. I hope he gets the treatment he definitely needs. But in terms of his future as the Flash...honestly, if he can get cleaned up and rehabilitate his image, I'm a lot more open to him returning to the role in the future than I was before watching this film. He's made it clear that he can play a more comic-book accurate Barry, and I feel he could get better at it with age.

Anyway, this brings us to the end, in a certain sense, of the DCEU - exactly a decade after it started! It's been a wild ride, sometimes a frustrating one, but there's no denying that love it or hate it, it made an impact. Time will tell how that impact will be remembered.

[Colossus1980]

Objectively worst films like Black Adam and WW84 got a higher Cinemascore (B+). This make no sense.

Unfortunately the actions of Miller has caused people to dislike this movie going in. Not to mention they have caused people to avoid The Flash. I can't remember the last time one person has disrupted such a huge blockbuster with their erratic behavior/criminal activities.

The media should be blaming Miller for the failure of The Flash.

[JorgeJ77]

So I just watched The Flash and...I loved it! It's not one of the "greatest superhero movies of all time" for sure, but it's definitely among the best DCEU movies, and possibly the best DC movie of the last few years (with the obvious exception of The Batman).

First of, and I don't give a f#ck how 'problematic' it may sound, Ezra Miller does brilliant work in the movie. It's almost as though Miller, and Muschetti, realizes that the JL Flash characterization wasn't gonna fly at all, so they literally denounced it by reinventing the 'main' Barry to be more mature and a lot closer to the comic-book version, while letting alternate Barry adopt the JL Flash characterization and call him out on it! Miller's performance really shines through in the interactions between the two Barry's, where you forget that they're played by the same actor a lot of the time.

Kiersey Clemmons made for a decent enough Iris, and I liked her chemistry with Ezra's Barry.

Michael Keaton steals the show as Batman. As I'd expected, the theatre erupted in cheers with pretty much every big moment/reveal with him - his first appearance, his first appearance in the suit, the Batcave reveal, the Batmobile reveal, the Batwing reveal, "You wanna get nuts"...Keaton's performance really feels authentic to his interpretation of the character from the Burton films, but at the same time, there is a slightly different note in there as well - of an older, wiser Bruce Wayne who's a little more at peace with himself, but who nonetheless misses the action as Batman and really revels in having a reason to put on the cowl again (shades of DKR for sure!)

Ben Affleck puts in a pretty solid performance as Batman too. Again, it feels true to his appearances in the earlier DCEU films, but at the same time a bit different - in many ways a 180 from where we saw the character right at the start of BvS. This is Affleck playing the 'superhero' Batman, the 'Caped Crusader' rather than the 'Dark Knight', decked out in a Silver Age-ish blue cape and cowl and leading the Justice League. The perfect culmination to this Batman's emotional journey over the course of these films.

The portrayal of both Batmen, but Batfleck in particular, really gives me high hopes for Brave and the Bold, since Andy Muschetti is helming that.

Sasha Calle is a pretty good Supergirl - the little bit we get of her anyway. She's less the sweet 'Girl Next Door' from the CW show and more akin to the rageful and power-packed New 52 version. I really hope she gets to return as the character.

Plot-wise, it's a pretty faithful adaptation of Flashpoint, obviously with some elements rejigged.

spoilers:

I actually didn't think Thawne's removal from the story was as bad as I was worried it would be - I think 'Dark Flash', if that's what we're calling him, worked pretty well in context. Of course, it does make me wonder if Muschetti (and Miller too who helped with the script) watched the CW show - there's definitely a lot of parallels to the Season 3 Savitar story-arc, which ironically enough, was also kickstarted by Flashpoint. I think it was really clever to give us the origin-story via time-travel/alternate timeline. That way, the first-ever Flash film does have the origin-story, albeit done in a way that advances the Flashpoint plot. Actually, the film works as an 'origin story' on multiple levels - we literally get to see the Flash's iconic origin play out, but it's also specifically the origin-story of alternate Barry, who becomes the Dark Flash and the closest thing we have to a Big Bad in this movie. And it's also a kind of 'origin story', or rather a 'Year One'-ish story, for the main Barry, as he matures into the more familiar and iconic version of the character.

end of spoilers

I personally enjoyed the hell out of the cameos. I didn't think the CGI models were too bad...some of them were actually pretty impressive. They made sense within the weird artistic sensibilities of those 'Chronobowl' sequences.

spoilers:

I particularly enjoyed George Reeves' black-and-white world, which also included Jay Garrick. Having Teddy Sears play Garrick instead of JWS was...a choice. But I suppose it makes sense on one level - this would be a younger Jay during the Golden Age, rather than JWS's aged version of the character. I felt the Christopher Reeve/Helen Slater team-up was pretty well done too. Didn't care much for the Adam West one...almost blink-and-you-miss-it. Laughed out loud at the Nicholas Cage one. And they actually got him to fight that damn spider that's been speculated and mocked for three decades now I enjoyed Gadot's Wonder Woman cameo at the start. The Momoa Aquaman cameo in the post-credits scene was kinda funny, but not so enjoyable. I think it's a crying shame that we didn't get a real Henry Cavill cameo though, apart from the shirtless CGI reconstruction in the Chronobowl - especially since the plot of this movie to a large extent hinges on his solo movie! If this is truly the last hurrah of the DCEU, then not letting Cavill have one last moment to shine is a damn shame.

end of spoilers

Last, but not least, we come to THAT ending and its possible implications for the future of the DCEU/Gunn's DCU.

spoilers:

Batman & Robin, I'm almost ashamed to say, was the first live-action Batman film I ever watched, as a kid. So I've always had a bit of a soft corner for George Clooney's take on the character. The film is crap of course, objectively speaking. But 25 years is long enough to punish it, and its star. In that spirit, I was glad to see him being acknowledged in this nostalgia fest for past DC productions. That said, I'm not quiet sure what to make of that ending. It has a bit of a 'joke' vibe to it (especially with Barry's tooth falling off!). I mean, obviously its a parallel to Barry meeting the New 52 Bruce at the end of the original story, but this is nowhere near as serious a scene (imagine if Keaton's Batman had written a letter to Clooney's Batman though, LOL). But Clooney definitely isn't going to be the Batman of Gunn's DCU. I've mostly kept away from spoilers before watching the film, but I'm vaguely aware that the film was originally supposed to establish Keaton's Batman in the rebooted DCEU, so I guess originally it would have been him in that scene. I get that Keaton isn't gonna be Batman in Gunn's DCU, but I'm sure what putting Clooney there accomplishes plot-wise in terms of tying this film's ending to the reboot. The post-credit scene with Momoa does set the stage for Aquaman 2 to be set in the post-Flash rebooted timeline. And with the joke about Momoa's Aquaman being a kind of multiversal constant, in contrast to the ever-changing Bruce Waynes, I suppose we have a rationale for him continuing to play the character in Gunn's DCU as well - irrespective of if Gunn's DCU is the same timeline as the end of this film or not. Barry saying "they were all Bruce Wayne, but different people" in that scene muddies waters a bit too, or maybe I'm overthinking it...to me it seemed like it leaves some leeway open to suggest that Barry's time-traveled again a few times in a bid to fix things and restore Batfleck, so Clooney's Bruce has already been rewritten and replaced by whoever will be Gunn's new Bruce. But I dunno. I suppose if there is a Batman cameo in Aquaman 2 that's been retained, we'll get a better idea of how things stand. Irrespective, this film does leave Gunn a lot of options in terms of how to proceed with his new universe. Its entirely possible for Supergirl to be completely recast along with Superman, or Sasha Calle could totally return as well as a new incarnation of Kara Zor-El. Gunn can treat the timeline at the end of this film as his rebooted DCU (albeit, with the Clooney Bruce thing being fixed by further off-screen time-travel by Barry), which means that Aquaman 2 is in continuity with his reboot and Momoa stays as Aquaman. He can treat his rebooted DCU as a totally different timeline from the ending of this film and still justify the retention of the Suicide Squad/Peacemaker cast, or anyone else he wants to retain. Bruce's explanation of how time-travel and the multiverse works actually leaves a lot of room for all kinds of permutations.

end of spoilers

And what of Ezra Miller himself? Well, honestly, I just hope he gets his day in court, and if he's guilty of an actual crime, he should face consequences for it. I hope he gets the treatment he definitely needs. But in terms of his future as the Flash...honestly, if he can get cleaned up and rehabilitate his image, I'm a lot more open to him returning to the role in the future than I was before watching this film. He's made it clear that he can play a more comic-book accurate Barry, and I feel he could get better at it with age.

Anyway, this brings us to the end, in a certain sense, of the DCEU - exactly a decade after it started! It's been a wild ride, sometimes a frustrating one, but there's no denying that love it or hate it, it made an impact. Time will tell how that impact will be remembered.

That's great that you loved it, and even there's things i'll probably not like a lot, i'm glad that you enjoyed it a lot.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Unfortunately the actions of Miller has caused people to dislike this movie going in. Not to mention they have caused people to avoid The Flash. I can't remember the last time one person has disrupted such a huge blockbuster with their erratic behavior/criminal activities.

The media should be blaming Miller for the failure of The Flash.

Another L for DC and WBD. They can't keep having a flop after another.