How would you do a Hawkman movie?

[marhawkman]

I mean, the Rann-Thanagar war is a great example of why the Thanagarian civilization aren't "good guys". The DCAU hit that one square on the head. We don't see the Rannians, but the Thanagarians were plotting to blow up the Earth as "collateral damage" in their war. Then we find out that the Thanagarians took a devastating loss after their counter-offense plan got halted.

[Primal Slayer]

I mean, the Rann-Thanagar war is a great example of why the Thanagarian civilization aren't "good guys". The DCAU hit that one square on the head. We don't see the Rannians, but the Thanagarians were plotting to blow up the Earth as "collateral damage" in their war. Then we find out that the Thanagarians took a devastating loss after their counter-offense plan got halted.

The fact that WB/DC films has the perfect storyline to build up to and they never will is so sad.

[bat39]

I wish you to be on the right on this.



At least morally.



Leaving aside how much successful Andor really was, you can have a point.



Still uncertain on this point. In the 'net there are a lot of kind of sanctimonious crowds willing to create fake scandals.

That said, I think than any Hawkman & Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman movie will had to choose between one of the origins. I don't think a movie can manage both aspects at the same time to create a clear story. On a tv series or an streaming can work. But in a movie, two hours minimum, you would had to explain than they are incarnations of egyptian pharaons and from alien police. It can be a dream to have the complete set, but narratively, an extended origin can be a problem to implement. You have to put in practice the Occam razor principle. It also would be an economic problem because you should had to develop the Egyptian background and the Thanagarian background, (Design, scenary, clothes,) making the movie more expensive. And expensives movies don't are usually approved.

I think you may be right about the last point. The trick I think is to focus on the relatively lower-budget Egyptian angle for the first film, but set up some Thanagarian stuff too.

From a story perspective, I'd focus the first film on Carter rediscovering his Ancient Egyptian past (and his past with the JSA). But the source of the Nth metal, the alien spacecraft, the harness etc. would be Thanagar. In my story, Hath-Seth would be using Thanagarian technology for his plans. But the planet itself wouldn't appear (beyond some visions in the Absorbascon). And Shayera Hol would appear as a present-day Thanagarian.

If there's a sequel, or a Hawkgirl spin-off, that would focus on Thanagar more and build out the universe.

[Ascended]

I wish you to be on the right on this.

Right? Well, I'm pretty sure I'm right....at least on an academic level. It *isn't* hard to look at a story and identify potential red flags and work out solutions. Kids do that sort of thing in high school, grown professionals should be more than capable of the same. But obviously, as we've seen many times in film, television, and print, just because a story teller *should* be capable of recognizing possible problems doesn't mean they actually do. So maybe I'm not as right as I thought I was, and you've got more cause for concern than I was giving you credit for. I admit I often underestimate the power of the human condition and our ability to be pure morons.

That line I wrote earlier about the worst case "we hired all the wrong people!" scenario doesn't seem so wild and unlikely when I consider the movies DC has made and the people they've hired to make them.

At least morally.

Indeed. Technologically, visually, etc., they're pretty amazing. But you can easily showcase the negative aspects of Thanagar in a way that isn't completely overshadowed by any "cool" factor.

Leaving aside how much successful Andor really was, you can have a point.

Is Andor's success overblown? I haven't seen any ratings data or anything, but the Star Wars nerds seem to love that show. "Star Wars for grown ups" and all that.

Still uncertain on this point. In the 'net there are a lot of kind of sanctimonious crowds willing to create fake scandals.

There really are. But most of the time it's just hot air and dissipates quickly while accomplishing nothing. A certain slice of the internet will always whine, but it usually doesn't go any further. Often, it seems to me, the fake scandals that pick up steam and actually become problematic do so because the people being accused immediately jump into denial/damage control mode, which makes them look guilty (what're you denying if you've done nothing wrong?), and then "normal" people start to wonder if the scandal actually has any merit, and things spiral from there.

So like, if I did recast the Hawkman actor I could easily generate some hate from folks saying I was some kind of bigot. That would happen no matter what honestly, even if I recast with another PoC like I've talked about. It's inevitable. But instead of waiting for the noise and faux outrage to start and then act like I did nothing wrong, I'd get in front of it and talk it up before any outrage could begin. "We're thankful for all the hard work the actor put in. We're proud of his performance and hope to work with him again. But this is a new DCEU/new Hawkman and we felt that clean breaks were best. It's a new take, new story, and new approach so a new actor felt like the right way to go and I'm here to introduce our new Hawkman, >insert actor here<! He's a great talent with >insert resume highlights< and we felt that, given Hawkman's Egyptian roots, casting an Egyptian actor was the best choice. And we're super excited for all of you to see the new Hawkman in action!"

There'd still be noise, there'd still be attempts to label me as some kind of racist because I replaced a black actor. But with a simple and obvious, inoffensive explanation already making the rounds I don't have to react to any faux outrage, I don't look like I'm trying to hide anything or cover up a mistake, and I can make those people react to me and put them on the defensive instead. Plus, by hiring another PoC actor I effectively refute the majority of "racist" accusations, and the only people left complaining will be the idiots who'd complain regardless and the people upset that I replaced the original actor because they liked him, and neither group offers a real threat as far as marketing goes.

Assuming I replaced him in the first place. Again, haven't seen Black Adam. Dude we have now might be fantastic, I don't know.

That said, I think than any Hawkman & Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman movie will had to choose between one of the origins.

Even one of Hawkman's origins is a tough story to pull off in a movie honestly. Whether it's an entire alien culture or the winding paths of history, there's a lot to unpack. Which is why I'd do Hawkworld/Thanagar and end it with their arrival in ancient Egypt, saving that half of the story for a sequel.

[bat39]

Right? Well, I'm pretty sure I'm right....at least on an academic level. It *isn't* hard to look at a story and identify potential red flags and work out solutions. Kids do that sort of thing in high school, grown professionals should be more than capable of the same. But obviously, as we've seen many times in film, television, and print, just because a story teller *should* be capable of recognizing possible problems doesn't mean they actually do. So maybe I'm not as right as I thought I was, and you've got more cause for concern than I was giving you credit for. I admit I often underestimate the power of the human condition and our ability to be pure morons.

That line I wrote earlier about the worst case "we hired all the wrong people!" scenario doesn't seem so wild and unlikely when I consider the movies DC has made and the people they've hired to make them.



Indeed. Technologically, visually, etc., they're pretty amazing. But you can easily showcase the negative aspects of Thanagar in a way that isn't completely overshadowed by any "cool" factor.



Is Andor's success overblown? I haven't seen any ratings data or anything, but the Star Wars nerds seem to love that show. "Star Wars for grown ups" and all that.



There really are. But most of the time it's just hot air and dissipates quickly while accomplishing nothing. A certain slice of the internet will always whine, but it usually doesn't go any further. Often, it seems to me, the fake scandals that pick up steam and actually become problematic do so because the people being accused immediately jump into denial/damage control mode, which makes them look guilty (what're you denying if you've done nothing wrong?), and then "normal" people start to wonder if the scandal actually has any merit, and things spiral from there.

So like, if I did recast the Hawkman actor I could easily generate some hate from folks saying I was some kind of bigot. That would happen no matter what honestly, even if I recast with another PoC like I've talked about. It's inevitable. But instead of waiting for the noise and faux outrage to start and then act like I did nothing wrong, I'd get in front of it and talk it up before any outrage could begin. "We're thankful for all the hard work the actor put in. We're proud of his performance and hope to work with him again. But this is a new DCEU/new Hawkman and we felt that clean breaks were best. It's a new take, new story, and new approach so a new actor felt like the right way to go and I'm here to introduce our new Hawkman, >insert actor here<! He's a great talent with >insert resume highlights< and we felt that, given Hawkman's Egyptian roots, casting an Egyptian actor was the best choice. And we're super excited for all of you to see the new Hawkman in action!"

There'd still be noise, there'd still be attempts to label me as some kind of racist because I replaced a black actor. But with a simple and obvious, inoffensive explanation already making the rounds I don't have to react to any faux outrage, I don't look like I'm trying to hide anything or cover up a mistake, and I can make those people react to me and put them on the defensive instead. Plus, by hiring another PoC actor I effectively refute the majority of "racist" accusations, and the only people left complaining will be the idiots who'd complain regardless and the people upset that I replaced the original actor because they liked him, and neither group offers a real threat as far as marketing goes.

Assuming I replaced him in the first place. Again, haven't seen Black Adam. Dude we have now might be fantastic, I don't know.



Even one of Hawkman's origins is a tough story to pull off in a movie honestly. Whether it's an entire alien culture or the winding paths of history, there's a lot to unpack. Which is why I'd do Hawkworld/Thanagar and end it with their arrival in ancient Egypt, saving that half of the story for a sequel.

Honestly, I feel the era of peak wokeness/outrage culture might be behind us. So I wouldn't worry too much about any of this.

When it comes to Hawkman, I'm pretty okay with race-bending to be honest. I'm normally a lot more skeptical about it (for instance, I definitely do not want a black Clark Kent). But with this character, it makes sense that he could be of any race. And the Ancient Egyptians were fairly racially diverse too. I'd have preferred, if they were changing Hawkman's race, to have him be of Egyptian descent, but honestly I'm okay with the direction they went in as well. Frankly, the way Aldis Hodge's character was written was a bigger deviation from the comic-book Hawkman than his skin color (though I did enjoy Hawkman's portrayal in Black Adam to an extent...hence this thread!)

[kcekada]

I'd probably not use Kendra in place of Shayera. Shayera is very well-known and popular thanks to the animated Justice League series.

Kendra could be a separate character -- not part of the original couple. If they do sci-fi version, Kendra is another person from Thanagar. If they do the reincarnated version, Kendra would likely be a past or future incarnation.

[Ascended]

Honestly, I feel the era of peak wokeness/outrage culture might be behind us. So I wouldn't worry too much about any of this.

Same thought has crossed my mind since the election, actually. The more extreme voices on the side of the woke seem quieter lately and there seems less appetite for ultra-sensitivity. But I don't know that I believe we're leaving some of these social trends behind. Sociology is going to be an interesting field for the next while.

When it comes to Hawkman, I'm pretty okay with race-bending to be honest. Frankly, the way Aldis Hodge's character was written was a bigger deviation from the comic-book Hawkman than his skin color (though I did enjoy Hawkman's portrayal in Black Adam to an extent...hence this thread!)

I assume Hodge did fine. I've seen a few trailers and what little you see of him there looked right to me. The casting is rarely a problem with DC films. It's everything else. And I don't know if I even consider it racebending in this case, the Hawks originate with Egypt so isn't it more like fixing a mistake? They probably shouldn't have been so European/American white to begin with. At least, if you want to keep visual consistency across rebirths, which you don't "have* to but always seemed a better choice for the Hawks' story to me. Otherwise these incarnations can look like anything. I've always thought the same of Diana; isn't Themyscria near Greece? Diana should've been some fantasy flavored Greek ethnicity from the start right?

I'd probably not use Kendra in place of Shayera.

I like Kendra and I think she's fine but Shay is by far, IMO, a better character. I feel like with Kendra, DC tries too hard sometimes and it comes off as needlessly convoluted and feels like extra baggage. Ask me, we don't need Shay and Kendra to co-exist, just say Kendra is Shay's modern incarnation just as Carter's is Katar's and leave it at that. I think Johns found a viable way to fuse the Thanagar/Egyptian mythos but it's still unwieldly and makes for a long origin story. Adding more complexities and major characters to that feels unsustainable.

[bat39]

I'd probably not use Kendra in place of Shayera. Shayera is very well-known and popular thanks to the animated Justice League series.

Kendra could be a separate character -- not part of the original couple. If they do sci-fi version, Kendra is another person from Thanagar. If they do the reincarnated version, Kendra would likely be a past or future incarnation.

Yeah, in my version, Kendra Saunders would just be an alias for Shayera Hol.

Same thought has crossed my mind since the election, actually. The more extreme voices on the side of the woke seem quieter lately and there seems less appetite for ultra-sensitivity. But I don't know that I believe we're leaving some of these social trends behind. Sociology is going to be an interesting field for the next while.



I assume Hodge did fine. I've seen a few trailers and what little you see of him there looked right to me. The casting is rarely a problem with DC films. It's everything else. And I don't know if I even consider it racebending in this case, the Hawks originate with Egypt so isn't it more like fixing a mistake? They probably shouldn't have been so European/American white to begin with. At least, if you want to keep visual consistency across rebirths, which you don't "have* to but always seemed a better choice for the Hawks' story to me. Otherwise these incarnations can look like anything. I've always thought the same of Diana; isn't Themyscria near Greece? Diana should've been some fantasy flavored Greek ethnicity from the start right?



I like Kendra and I think she's fine but Shay is by far, IMO, a better character. I feel like with Kendra, DC tries too hard sometimes and it comes off as needlessly convoluted and feels like extra baggage. Ask me, we don't need Shay and Kendra to co-exist, just say Kendra is Shay's modern incarnation just as Carter's is Katar's and leave it at that. I think Johns found a viable way to fuse the Thanagar/Egyptian mythos but it's still unwieldly and makes for a long origin story. Adding more complexities and major characters to that feels unsustainable.

On Carter's race...honestly, what the Ancient Egyptians looked like is a complicated subject (and that's before you get into contemporary racial politics). But if you consider someone like Rami Malek - at first glance, I'd say he's white, even if he's not your stereotypical WASP, but he's of Egyptian descent I believe. And even now we're getting movies with white actors playing Egyptians.

So frankly, I don't have a problem with a white actor playing Carter because Egyptians have pretty varying skin tones that could pass as 'white' in a contemporary context. But yeah, if you want to be super-accurate about it, casting someone of Egyptian or at least Arab descent would be a good idea.

I think Aldis Hodge did a great job. One thing I appreciated was that they didn't lean into the idea of Carter being this savage warrior, which sometimes happens with Hawkman. Quiet the contrary in fact! They may have gone a little too much in the other direction by making him a fairly compliant operative of Amanda Waller's. Though I suppose historically the JSA have always been tied to the government in some form...its just a bit jarring when its Amanda Waller giving them marching orders, and not FDR!

When it comes to Kendra, I think adaptations have simplified her - basically making her Shiera in all but name. The Arrowverse just had her be the latest incarnation (who maintains Kendra's comic-book origin of not remembering her past with Carter). Robinson's Earth 2 just gave her a different backstory. I'm proposing making her an alias for Shayera.

[Ascended]

On Carter's race...honestly, what the Ancient Egyptians looked like is a complicated subject (and that's before you get into contemporary racial politics). But if you consider someone like Rami Malek - at first glance, I'd say he's white, even if he's not your stereotypical WASP, but he's of Egyptian descent I believe. And even now we're getting movies with white actors playing Egyptians.

Oh absolutely. Egyptian doesn't have to mean "dark/tanned skin" at all. Lot of variety in that region, both in ancient times and today. But I think it works better on a purely visual level if Carter doesn't look like a WASP. And again, the modern incarnation could look like anything and be born anywhere, but if you want to keep the Egyptian connections front and center (which I obviously do), getting someone who's darker than the typical white dude, or otherwise has features that call out some kind of Egyptian background, makes for stronger visual language, I think.

I feel the same way about Batman. Bruce comes from old, pre-Revolutionary War money, which means his ancestors were white when Gotham was built in America's early days. Generations have passed since then so Bruce could be of any race and have any look you wanted of course, but keeping him WASP-y helps reinforce those origins. I wouldn't say Bruce *has* to be white or anything, just as Carter doesn't *have* to have darker skin, but I think it works best (visually) when they do.

I think Aldis Hodge did a great job. One thing I appreciated was that they didn't lean into the idea of Carter being this savage warrior, which sometimes happens with Hawkman.

That's good to hear. I think I heard a while back that they weren't going the "savage" route with Carter but it's good to have confirmation. They announced that Black Adam hits HBOMax in a week or so, so I'll be seeing it for myself soon.

I'm proposing making her an alias for Shayera.

Works for me. I'm not too partial to how the Kendra/Shayera situation is dealt with as long as it doesn't make the mythos any more confusing and convoluted than it already is.

[kcekada]

I think I recall someone saying Hawkman is Conan with wings. Wrong!

Keep Kendra as a part or future incarnation. We don't need both Shayera and Kendra to co-exist. But, initially, I wouldn't lean too heavily into any other incarnations aside from their ancient Egypitian lives.

[Rod G]

Forget the reincarnation angle (always a major headache) and just stick with Thanagarian police officers instead.

[Edwin30]

Forget the reincarnation angle (always a major headache) and just stick with Thanagarian police officers instead.

I agree. Just be police officers from an alien world with alien technology who are stationed at earth.

Need a big dude to play Hawkman.

[Zero Hunter]

Forget the reincarnation angle (always a major headache) and just stick with Thanagarian police officers instead.

If anything ditch the alien police angle. It is just the die hard Hawkworld fanboy writers that keep bringing it back which is what keeps causing all the headaches.

[bat39]

If anything ditch the alien police angle. It is just the die hard Hawkworld fanboy writers that keep bringing it back which is what keeps causing all the headaches.

Honestly, I think Johns and more recently Venditti have done a great job merging the two and having Katar and Carter be the same person. And I would hope adaptations follow suit.

Adaptations so far have at least alluded to both versions, even if they're primarily based on one. The DCAU for instance had a Thanagarian Hawkgirl, but introduced Carter Hall Hawkman with the Egyptian reincarnation origin. The Arrowverse went with the Egyptian reincarnation origin but threw in a reference or two to Thanagar (the Nth metal meteor that triggered the cycle came from there iirc). More recently, the animated films gave us the reincarnated Egyptian Hawkman in the JSA on Earth 2, with the Thanagarian Hawkgirl on Earth 1.

[Ascended]

Saw Black Adam today. Mostly watched it for Hawkman, honestly, and because I finally watched The Batman and enjoyed it enough to wanna give Black Adam a chance.

For the most part I think the film gets Carter right; usually Hawkman ends up looking like either a complete barbarian, or a generic "good guy" with little personality. But the film walks the line relatively well and gives us a pretty well rounded Carter. And I think they got his power levels right; he's a bruiser for sure, but he's clearly not on the same level as guys like Adam and Clark.

And Hodge plays the role well, he's charming and funny when he has to be, has an edge when he needs one, and has the physical presence Carter needs. The costume wasn't terrible, though I wasn't crazy about it either...except for the shape-shifting mace, which was great. Pair him up with a quality actress and I can see him pulling off the love affair with Shayera quite well too.

If DC wasn't dropping everyone/thing to start fresh, I'd have been perfectly fine with Hodge playing Hawkman but as I suspected would be the case, he didn't impress me enough for losing him to feel like too heavy a loss. But I was definitely more than satisfied with what he did.

Also got a kick out of them essentially ignoring Carter's origin. I don't think they touched on where he comes from at all did they? He's got a ship made from Nth metal so we know Thanagar was involved somehow, but this could be the simple space cop Hawkman or it could be the space cop turned reincarnated Egyptian. Best to leave all that stuff aside though, this wasn't the movie for dealing with convoluted Hawk stories.