Dark Web 1 Spoilers and Review: Ben to Hell and Back

[Alex_Of_X]

I actually found myself enjoying this issue. I absolutely hate what they did with Ben, but given that he's someone who's fed up with the world and doesn't have Peter's upbringing to fall back on, it makes sense. How many times has Peter lashed out at the world before reigning it in?

Also I'm sure at the end of this, Ben will be restored to the man we know and love.

"Good" Norman is growing on me some. I do like a good redemption story, but I refuse to get completely invested as what happened with Superior is still fresh in my mind. Especially since they're already teasing that this is temporary.

Eddie....I'm a little worried because while I know this is temporary, I really hope it doesn't mess up his character development and his relationship with Peter. I am curious as how Dylan is going to fit into all this.

All in all I'm intrigued. This is so far MUCH better than what's been going on in ASM so far.

One of us! One of us!

JK but phew, nice to see some positivity on the board.

Now that we've gotten hero-Venom, hero-Ock and hero-Norman, who's next? I vote Scorpion.

2023 the year of the Mac

[Kurolegacy]

I actually found myself enjoying this issue. I absolutely hate what they did with Ben, but given that he's someone who's fed up with the world and doesn't have Peter's upbringing to fall back on, it makes sense. How many times has Peter lashed out at the world before reigning it in?

Also I'm sure at the end of this, Ben will be restored to the man we know and love.

"Good" Norman is growing on me some. I do like a good redemption story, but I refuse to get completely invested as what happened with Superior is still fresh in my mind. Especially since they're already teasing that this is temporary.

Eddie....I'm a little worried because while I know this is temporary, I really hope it doesn't mess up his character development and his relationship with Peter. I am curious as how Dylan is going to fit into all this.

All in all I'm intrigued. This is so far MUCH better than what's been going on in ASM so far.

But that’s the thing, Ben isn’t fed up with the world and nothing has presented him as being such. It isn’t as though his situation is like other clones in which he was looked at as a fake or less of a person, no, he found his own identity beyond just his memories of Peter Parker. Even Peter embraced him as a brother in the end in spite of everything complicated with them. Ben’s had hard time since coming back but after Spider-Geddon, found himself in a good place until the end of Beyond where they threw out all semblances of his character to just force clone drama that hasn’t been part of his character since the Clone Saga. He’s lost his memories and there’s an obvious party that is at fault for that, the Beyond Corporation and Maxine at the center of it all. He has no reason to take that out on the rest of the world or Peter who, in spite of lashing out at him in their last meeting, presented wanting to help Ben and to this day still thinks fondly of him. Everything about this story with Ben is forced just for having this story happen. It’s not a case of the plot servicing the characters but of the characters being bent and broken to service the plot, which is always the hallmark of a badly written story.

[classicgmer]

Although I've despised damn near everything that's happened with Ben since they brought him back does anyone else think it makes absolutely no sense that Kaine has played no role in any of Ben's recent developments and according to Nick Lowe there's likely no plans for him at all in 2023?


Personally i want him as far away from this Chasm nonsense as humanly possible but based on their history and interactions post CC Kaine should be the first person to pop up if he's seeing Ben backslide into villainous behavior again.

[Huntsman Spider]

Although I've despised damn near everything that's happened with Ben since they brought him back does anyone else think it makes absolutely no sense that Kaine has played no role in any of Ben's recent developments and according to Nick Lowe there's likely no plans for him at all in 2023?


Personally i want him as far away from this Chasm nonsense as humanly possible but based on their history and interactions post CC Kaine should be the first person to pop up if he's seeing Ben backslide into villainous behavior again.

Yeah, that is indeed some B.S.

[Refrax5]

But that’s the thing, Ben isn’t fed up with the world and nothing has presented him as being such. It isn’t as though his situation is like other clones in which he was looked at as a fake or less of a person, no, he found his own identity beyond just his memories of Peter Parker. Even Peter embraced him as a brother in the end in spite of everything complicated with them. Ben’s had hard time since coming back but after Spider-Geddon, found himself in a good place until the end of Beyond where they threw out all semblances of his character to just force clone drama that hasn’t been part of his character since the Clone Saga. He’s lost his memories and there’s an obvious party that is at fault for that, the Beyond Corporation and Maxine at the center of it all. He has no reason to take that out on the rest of the world or Peter who, in spite of lashing out at him in their last meeting, presented wanting to help Ben and to this day still thinks fondly of him. Everything about this story with Ben is forced just for having this story happen. It’s not a case of the plot servicing the characters but of the characters being bent and broken to service the plot, which is always the hallmark of a badly written story.

He's definitely fed up with the world. He feels like Peter deliberately is keeping him from being whole and most of his remaining memories are of all the bad things that have happened. He remembers a lot of anguish and none of the good things that kept him grounded. He's angry as hell at the world.

While we know how bad Maxine is, she told Ben that he asked her to delete any backups of his memories and that Peter is the only one who can replace them. And that's assuming he even remembers Maxine or a lot of what happened with her. There's no real plot hole there.

[The Black Death]

But that’s the thing, Ben isn’t fed up with the world and nothing has presented him as being such. It isn’t as though his situation is like other clones in which he was looked at as a fake or less of a person, no, he found his own identity beyond just his memories of Peter Parker. Even Peter embraced him as a brother in the end in spite of everything complicated with them. Ben’s had hard time since coming back but after Spider-Geddon, found himself in a good place until the end of Beyond where they threw out all semblances of his character to just force clone drama that hasn’t been part of his character since the Clone Saga. He’s lost his memories and there’s an obvious party that is at fault for that, the Beyond Corporation and Maxine at the center of it all. He has no reason to take that out on the rest of the world or Peter who, in spite of lashing out at him in their last meeting, presented wanting to help Ben and to this day still thinks fondly of him. Everything about this story with Ben is forced just for having this story happen. It’s not a case of the plot servicing the characters but of the characters being bent and broken to service the plot, which is always the hallmark of a badly written story.

So if we put it that way you can also say that Peter working for Norman is also forced, just like it's forced that Mary Jane is now together with some random guy named Paul and still with some kids, it's forced that paint Norman Osborn as a good and repentant guy even though Norman fucked up so many lives, it's still forced that Marvel still keeps portraying Peter as a loser who can't fend for himself just to make him more "IDENFIABLE" to people, damn at this point so much of the story is forced, yet so far the only thing you keep highlighting that is forced is just that Ben Reilly is a now portrayed as a "villain" just because of your weird love/hate for Chasm.

Even outside of the Spider-Man mythos there are several characters that were forced to be villains for the sake of the story plot as was the case with Tony Stark, Bucky Barnes, Matt Murdock, Reed Richards, Natasha Romanoff, Bruce Banner, The Sentry, Colossus, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel and etc, all these characters went through bad stages being represented as villains and yet at least the vast majority of those characters are relatively well now, Ben Reilly's character is no exception, Ben being Chasm represented as a "villain" is just a bad stage of the character, it's just a matter of time before Ben returns to be the heroic character of before or at least at least Ben is represented as a tragic anti-hero.

[Kurolegacy]

So if we put it that way you can also say that Peter working for Norman is also forced, just like it's forced that Mary Jane is now together with some random guy named Paul and still with some kids, it's forced that paint Norman Osborn as a good and repentant guy even though Norman fucked up so many lives, it's still forced that Marvel still keeps portraying Peter as a loser who can't fend for himself just to make him more "IDENFIABLE" to people, damn at this point so much of the story is forced, yet so far the only thing you keep highlighting that is forced is just that Ben Reilly is a now portrayed as a "villain" just because of your weird love/hate for Chasm.

Even outside of the Spider-Man mythos there are several characters that were forced to be villains for the sake of the story plot as was the case with Tony Stark, Bucky Barnes, Matt Murdock, Reed Richards, Natasha Romanoff, Bruce Banner, The Sentry, Colossus, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel and etc, all these characters went through bad stages being represented as villains and yet at least the vast majority of those characters are relatively well now, Ben Reilly's character is no exception, Ben being Chasm represented as a "villain" is just a bad stage of the character, it's just a matter of time before Ben returns to be the heroic character of before or at least at least Ben is represented as a tragic anti-hero.

I’m pointing out how bad of writing that this entire direction is for Ben because that’s the plot of the story that this thread is about. If you want to talk about the number other issues with this run, there’s literally a thread pertaining to people’s opinion of the run. And as with other characters that you mentioned, they weren’t dead for 20 years only for this direction to continually be forced into that role again and again with the editor basically admitting that there’s no place for that character in comics.

[boots]

I’m pointing out how bad of writing that this entire direction is for Ben because that’s the plot of the story that this thread is about. If you want to talk about the number other issues with this run, there’s literally a thread pertaining to people’s opinion of the run. And as with other characters that you mentioned, they weren’t dead for 20 years only for this direction to continually be forced into that role again and again with the editor basically admitting that there’s no place for that character in comics.

i can sympathise with this. the degree that something like a heel-turn feels "forced" often relies on how well it's sold to the audience which often relies on internal logic (plot and/or character)

i think many of us on this board have been open to a well told heel turn with ben. it's probably in the archives where a lot of us gave *clone conspiracy* a fair shake and PAD's run the benefit of the doubt. i was pretty vocal in my defense of *beyond* initially

but other than those who are genuinely enjoying chasm (no shade) the main defense rn seems to be "it's comics, wait for it to blow over"

which, while probably true, ain't that comforting

at the mo, pav is doing a good job of convincing me that there's some merit to this dark web fuckery

[Alex_Of_X]

i can sympathise with this. the degree that something like a heel-turn feels "forced" often relies on how well it's sold to the audience which often relies on internal logic (plot and/or character)

i think many of us on this board have been open to a well told heel turn with ben. it's probably in the archives where a lot of us gave *clone conspiracy* a fair shake and PAD's run the benefit of the doubt. i was pretty vocal in my defense of *beyond* initially

but other than those who are genuinely enjoying chasm (no shade) the main defense rn seems to be "it's comics, wait for it to blow over"

which, while probably true, ain't that comforting

at the mo, pav is doing a good job of convincing me that there's some merit to this dark web fuckery

I definitely think it's both of these things working in tandem: it MIGHT turn out fun, story's only starting, and if it's not, nothing in comics is forever.

And also, Ben just being around raises his chances of finally finding an ongoing niche in the Spider-family. I'd love for him to get a Kaine Parker\Spider-Man glow up better than the PAD series

[Pav]

Although I've despised damn near everything that's happened with Ben since they brought him back does anyone else think it makes absolutely no sense that Kaine has played no role in any of Ben's recent developments and according to Nick Lowe there's likely no plans for him at all in 2023?

i think many of us on this board have been open to a well told heel turn with ben. it's probably in the archives where a lot of us gave *clone conspiracy* a fair shake and PAD's run the benefit of the doubt. i was pretty vocal in my defense of *beyond* initially

but other than those who are genuinely enjoying chasm (no shade) the main defense rn seems to be "it's comics, wait for it to blow over"

which, while probably true, ain't that comforting

at the mo, pav is doing a good job of convincing me that there's some merit to this dark web fuckery

I definitely think it's both of these things working in tandem: it MIGHT turn out fun, story's only starting, and if it's not, nothing in comics is forever.

And also, Ben just being around raises his chances of finally finding an ongoing niche in the Spider-family. I'd love for him to get a Kaine Parker\Spider-Man glow up better than the PAD series

This is very much my mindset. I've been reading comic books long enough to have a healthy sense of both pragmatism and hope. You never know what story a future writer is going to want to tell, or what character is going to be written beautifully for the first time in forever, or whatever the case might be. I'm hopeful that Ben will not be in limbo for twenty years, and I'm thankful that the Spider-Office is at least trying to do something with Ben, even if it isn't what I'd prefer. And again, you never do know -- I'm open to a future writer nailing Ben as Chasm and all of a sudden rejuvenating the character in a way I never would've dreamed of enjoying.

But as Boots points out, I'm one who has always been willing to entertain a... "veering away" from Peter's philosophy of life for Ben. I've never been a fan of Ben becoming a villain, but as someone who loves Spider-Carnage, I always thought it'd be great to see Ben reclaim the symbiote and vacillate between Scarlet Spider and Scarlet Carnage as he tries to tame it -- and I always figured such an undertaking might see Ben evolve his thinking away from Peter's to a certain degree. At least, that's something I've always dreamed of writing, myself.

More pragmatically, I think Kaine's lack of appearances stem from a very basic problem: Marvel screwed up during Spider-Island by not allowing Slott to bring back Ben Reilly. Even since then, the characters of Kaine and Ben have become too similar to the point where, I think, it's hard for Marvel to figure out what to do with either of them. Now, don't get me wrong: Yost wrote an excellent redemption arc for Kaine that honored Ben Reilly in a very respectful way. But I do think, if we're honest with each other, it made Kaine too similar to Ben. And now, all of a sudden, what role can Ben have? Kaine's no longer a villain, so now Ben's the villain; and now they're arguably more similar than ever! Had Ben returned in Spider-Island, he would've gotten the status quo that most seem to want for him: being the Spidey of another city. Yost could've kept much of the series intact, including the supporting cast and rogues gallery, and Kaine could've continued on as the degenerating and often-deranged Spider-Clone. You could keep him in his classic status quo, or maybe it's Kaine that ends up being the new Jackal in Clone Conspiracy.

What's funny is that, of all their modern appearances, PAD's series got it closest to correct: Ben and Kaine should co-lead a series as clone brothers who can barely stand each other but grow to love and respect one another. I honestly think, if done right, that status quo could be more successful than any other for either of the characters.

That being said, I'm open to a Chasm and Hallows' Eve series. If they're going to be presented as anti-heroes or anti-villains, who better to show up than Kaine as the Scarlet Spider to take them down?

Also, gotta point out that I never thought Janine would be brought back, and into such a substantial role! So, maybe it's not crazy to think that, if Peter has MJ, and Ben has Janine, maybe it's high time we see the return of Muse!

-Pav, who always hoped Kaine had given her Baby May (and Baby Reilly)...

[The Black Death]

I’m pointing out how bad of writing that this entire direction is for Ben because that’s the plot of the story that this thread is about. If you want to talk about the number other issues with this run, there’s literally a thread pertaining to people’s opinion of the run. And as with other characters that you mentioned, they weren’t dead for 20 years only for this direction to continually be forced into that role again and again with the editor basically admitting that there’s no place for that character in comics.

Understandable, still in this thread you also got to mention at least a little bit of the other problems of this run like Norman Osborn being a good guy or Peter being basically friendly with Norman, so it's still valid even if it's just mentioning some of those problems to talk about in this thread.

About the other characters, were just small examples to highlight that Ben is not the only hero who was forced to be a villain for the sake of the plot, I also don't see much logic on what Ben being dead for 20 years has to do with the issue of Ben now being a villain but if you want to see it that way no problem, about the editor thing and admitting that there is no place for Ben in the comics I just see it as a cheap excuse to justify that Ben will stop being Spider-Man or just stop being a hero, because if it was really true that there is no place for Ben in the comics, 𝐛𝐚𝐬𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐲 𝐧𝐞𝐢𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫 𝐍𝐢𝐜𝐤 𝐋𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐧 𝐧𝐨𝐫 𝐙𝐞𝐛 𝐖𝐞𝐥𝐥𝐬 𝐰𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝 𝐮𝐬𝐞 𝐁𝐞𝐧 𝐧𝐨𝐰 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐧𝐞𝐢𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫 𝐰𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐛𝐞 𝐚𝐧 𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐰𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐲 𝐁𝐞𝐧 𝐢𝐬 𝐨𝐧𝐞 𝐨𝐟 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐦𝐚𝐢𝐧 𝐜𝐡𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐜𝐭𝐞𝐫𝐬. Don't get me wrong, I also hate all the shit Marvel has done with Ben lately, but at least to me it's pretty obvious that it's not worth it to keep constantly throwing shit at something when it will change nothing, also it will only be a matter of time until a relatively decent writer comes along that cleans up and does Ben Reilly's name justice.

In closing, while it is to a certain extent true that it's not very 𝐜𝐨𝐦𝐟𝐨𝐫𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐠 to wait for a big change as a certain other user has pointed out, we can't do anything else to change Ben's current situation other than wait, unless you want to riot or make some radical move against Marvel .

[Frontier]

I'm not willing to give Zeb Wells much credit for how he's been writing anyone in this run.

Well, maybe Tombstone.

[Refrax5]

I definitely think it's both of these things working in tandem: it MIGHT turn out fun, story's only starting, and if it's not, nothing in comics is forever.

And also, Ben just being around raises his chances of finally finding an ongoing niche in the Spider-family. I'd love for him to get a Kaine Parker\Spider-Man glow up better than the PAD series

That's pretty much where I'm at. I'm not happy about the Chasm stuff, but it is a better heel turn than Clone Conspiracy, where Ben seemed like an entirely different character. Even Ben's solo didn't feel like him, even as he regained more of his heroic self. At least this version speaks like Ben and they're actually drawing on his history and supporting cast this time. It's a tragically corrupted and damaged Ben, but it oddly feels like him more than he has since his resurrection. And as you said, the character being in use means there's plenty of chances for him to find his way back to a more palatable characterization and role.

I've just had this happen to so many characters I love, read the exact same stuff about how the character is better off dead or some convoluted retcons needed to fix it, etc, and eventually the character goes back to normal or they find what works and people forget about it or just look at it as a weird chapter in the character's history. A good example is Jason Todd. He came back as an antihero in a convoluted way, he yo-yoed between being an antihero, a hero and a complete psycho that shot a kid in the chest, etc and it was NOT received well. It took years, but they eventually found a characterization that worked and now he's a fan favorite.

And that's just one example.

[Frontier]

That's pretty much where I'm at. I'm not happy about the Chasm stuff, but it is a better heel turn than Clone Conspiracy, where Ben seemed like an entirely different character. Even Ben's solo didn't feel like him, even as he regained more of his heroic self. At least this version speaks like Ben and they're actually drawing on his history and supporting cast this time. It's a tragically corrupted and damaged Ben, but it oddly feels like him more than he has since his resurrection. And as you said, the character being in use means there's plenty of chances for him to find his way back to a more palatable characterization and role.

I've just had this happen to so many characters I love, read the exact same stuff about how the character is better off dead or some convoluted retcons needed to fix it, etc, and eventually the character goes back to normal or they find what works and people forget about it or just look at it as a weird chapter in the character's history. A good example is Jason Todd. He came back as an antihero in a convoluted way, he yo-yoed between being an antihero, a hero and a complete psycho that shot a kid in the chest, etc and it was NOT received well. It took years, but they eventually found a characterization that worked and now he's a fan favorite.

And that's just one example.

I'm far from a Ben expert but just from my own personal reading I just don't get the sense Wells really understands the character or their ethos and is just twisting the character and his story to fit the tale he wants to tell.

And Beyond ultimately felt like a big disservice to the character by the end of it.

Although now this makes me wonder if Chasm is better or worse than Queepin Black Cat.

[boots]

I definitely think it's both of these things working in tandem: it MIGHT turn out fun, story's only starting, and if it's not, nothing in comics is forever.

And also, Ben just being around raises his chances of finally finding an ongoing niche in the Spider-family. I'd love for him to get a Kaine Parker\Spider-Man glow up better than the PAD series

sure, it might even pan out to be a classic

but the context i meant was in the turning if the heel itself; what got us to chasm, that i think fumbled the execution

if done better, we might have more old school readers on the edge of their seat fascinated by chasm instead of disappointed by him