Dark Web 1 Spoilers and Review: Ben to Hell and Back

[Odd Rödney]

There's an interpretation of Peter's character that says he's a naturally selfish person who stays on the good side because of the ethical precepts Ben and May drummed into him. (The ethical term is enkratic: he does the right thing not out of natural inclination but only because he knows he ought to.) If he forgot those ethical precepts he could easily turn bad.
I think it's at best a half-truth but it's an interpretation.

Holy guacamole! You’re not wrong. He’s exhibited a lot of selfish behaviours over the years.

[Huntsman Spider]

These were legitimately great scenes.

Ben acting with such a grudge against Norman goes a long way in showing the old Ben is still in there. Imagine if Norman is the one to come through and restore his memories in the end!

Wells has already re-introduced the Winkler Device and Ashley Kafka's Goblin so the pieces are there to restore Ben...

With this issue I finally got the sense that Madeline is only able to do this due to the power-up from Ben (which I was hoping for from the start). His pain is so great it's super-powering her for her own ends.

The Venom stuff... I have no idea how to feel. It's bad, reductive writing to cast Eddie Venom as hating Spidey again and the reasoning felt very forced, BUT I was excited as Hell (or Limbo, I guess) by that last page!

I now believe the entirety of Ben's new power is green mood lighting.

I will be a little disappointed if the final resolution is getting Ben back but with Janine's Hallow's Eve as his nemesis.

I kinda skipped the X-Men pages, as I don't feel I needed them to enjoy the Spider-man side that I'm interested in.

Generally cosigned, at least on the Spider-Man stuff.

There's an interpretation of Peter's character that says he's a naturally selfish person who stays on the good side because of the ethical precepts Ben and May drummed into him. (The ethical term is enkratic: he does the right thing not out of natural inclination but only because he knows he ought to.) If he forgot those ethical precepts he could easily turn bad.
I think it's at best a half-truth but it's an interpretation.

Holy guacamole! You’re not wrong. He’s exhibited a lot of selfish behaviours over the years.

Funny enough, Nick Spencer's run did call him out a fair bit on acting selfishly even after his role in Uncle Ben's death motivated him to try to be a better person and an actual hero. To be more specific, "My Podcast with Jonah" had Jameson make some good points about how, if Peter really wanted to prove he was a good guy and not a menace as Spider-Man, he could have come straight to The Daily Bugle to explain his side of the story in an interview instead of pranking or threatening Jameson out of what amounted to childish pique over his motives being questioned (or distorted, if feeling less charitable), not to mention that his habitual, if not pathological, refusal to open up to people who knew him in his civilian life or potential superhero allies left him at an unnecessary disadvantage. Speaking of that refusal, Kindred wasn't entirely wrong to say that Peter had no right to keep Norman's identity as the Green Goblin secret from everyone, even Norman's own son Harry, and that he did it more to protect his own secret identity, which did enable Norman to go after Gwen Stacy as soon as he remembered (again) that he was the Goblin and Peter was Spider-Man, causing her death.

Compounding that was the situation with Martin Li/Mr. Negative after the Kindred encounter, in which Aunt May was bemoaning how so much chaos came into her life since Uncle Ben's death and feeling she had somehow brought it on herself, which was a perfect chance for Peter to finally admit the full truth to her (again) . . . except he didn't. If pressed, Peter would probably argue (to himself and others) that he kept the secrets that he had to protect his loved ones from being targeted by his enemies just for knowing him, but considering that his enemies who knew who he was still had a tendency to go after those loved ones even if they didn't know he was Spider-Man, it could be argued, perhaps slightly more convincingly, that he was really protecting himself all along from the fear of being rejected by those loved ones for how much danger he'd brought into their lives over the years, as per Liz Allan's reaction in the Spider-Man comics tying into Civil War after he publicly unmasked.

[jwatson]

So wait issue one actually came out? How'd i miss this. lol

[jwatson]

Ooooh when Peter snatched that wig off of Ben head i felt "I might need wordpard."

I am getting some STRONG inferno vibes here with Ben's mouth and hair being ripped off and immediately am feeling a sympathy with him in how it is rendered his identity and voice were taken in just a few panels. Kubert is on point.

And Inferno once again pounces in my mind. "a no where person in a nowhere place." Probably the cruelest things that can be heard from someone you REALLY think knows and accepts you.

I liked Ben's reaction. "That's the last time i'll take a nap down here." lol. i don't think Peter under wells would have had that reaction it would have been the first time he ever experienced such horrors i feel, which wouldn't be true to peter.

Ok Peter being sensitive to MJ, Kubert showing that natural chemistry they have. ok... Norman osborn showing up to pay for the two Oat milk cappicinos i was already side eyeing. *sigh* I mean i like that Peter is able to forgive and all but does he need to somehow be in every moment i get it's his son birthday party but yeah.

Okay i am actually thankful for this Peter/Norman scene while i don't see him the same way i think this is the first time i think i get where wells see Peter and it is as an eternal optimist hoping for the best in even his enemies but it is come off as maybe inexperienced instead? But an optimist isn't a fool and sometimes Peter feels a bit foolish but i'm not sensing purposeful damaging of the character if that makes sense.

Eddie Brock in the Scott Summers Position of Inferno wanting his son. Okay, this works for me too.

Seeing Scott/Jean walking in the snow immediately took me back to the recent Alex Ross repaint of the classic x-men story at the ice rink. lol I like that Firestar refuses to act cold to hide her powers keep her warm, nice little touch there.

Those last few pages were intense. I'm definitely in.

My fave panels.

darkweb.jpg
darkweb2.jpg
darkweb3.jpg

[Huntsman Spider]

Ooooh when Peter snatched that wig off of Ben head i felt "I might need wordpard."

I am getting some STRONG inferno vibes here with Ben's mouth and hair being ripped off and immediately am feeling a sympathy with him in how it is rendered his identity and voice were taken in just a few panels. Kubert is on point.

And Inferno once again pounces in my mind. "a no where person in a nowhere place." Probably the cruelest things that can be heard from someone you REALLY think knows and accepts you.

I liked Ben's reaction. "That's the last time i'll take a nap down here." lol. i don't think Peter under wells would have had that reaction it would have been the first time he ever experienced such horrors i feel, which wouldn't be true to peter.

Ok Peter being sensitive to MJ, Kubert showing that natural chemistry they have. ok... Norman osborn showing up to pay for the two Oat milk cappicinos i was already side eyeing. *sigh* I mean i like that Peter is able to forgive and all but does he need to somehow be in every moment i get it's his son birthday party but yeah.

Okay i am actually thankful for this Peter/Norman scene while i don't see him the same way i think this is the first time i think i get where wells see Peter and it is as an eternal optimist hoping for the best in even his enemies but it is come off as maybe inexperienced instead? But an optimist isn't a fool and sometimes Peter feels a bit foolish but i'm not sensing purposeful damaging of the character if that makes sense.

Eddie Brock in the Scott Summers Position of Inferno wanting his son. Okay, this works for me too.

Seeing Scott/Jean walking in the snow immediately took me back to the recent Alex Ross repaint of the classic x-men story at the ice rink. lol I like that Firestar refuses to act cold to hide her powers keep her warm, nice little touch there.

Those last few pages were intense. I'm definitely in.

My fave panels.

darkweb.jpg
darkweb2.jpg
darkweb3.jpg

I think that opening scene was deliberately calling back to Madelyne's nightmare in Inferno that catalyzed her transformation into the Goblin Queen, showing why and how she and Ben in his current state could relate to each other as kindred spirits.

[Refrax5]

Generally cosigned, at least on the Spider-Man stuff.





Funny enough, Nick Spencer's run did call him out a fair bit on acting selfishly even after his role in Uncle Ben's death motivated him to try to be a better person and an actual hero. To be more specific, "My Podcast with Jonah" had Jameson make some good points about how, if Peter really wanted to prove he was a good guy and not a menace as Spider-Man, he could have come straight to The Daily Bugle to explain his side of the story in an interview instead of pranking or threatening Jameson out of what amounted to childish pique over his motives being questioned (or distorted, if feeling less charitable), not to mention that his habitual, if not pathological, refusal to open up to people who knew him in his civilian life or potential superhero allies left him at an unnecessary disadvantage. Speaking of that refusal, Kindred wasn't entirely wrong to say that Peter had no right to keep Norman's identity as the Green Goblin secret from everyone, even Norman's own son Harry, and that he did it more to protect his own secret identity, which did enable Norman to go after Gwen Stacy as soon as he remembered (again) that he was the Goblin and Peter was Spider-Man, causing her death.

Compounding that was the situation with Martin Li/Mr. Negative after the Kindred encounter, in which Aunt May was bemoaning how so much chaos came into her life since Uncle Ben's death and feeling she had somehow brought it on herself, which was a perfect chance for Peter to finally admit the full truth to her (again) . . . except he didn't. If pressed, Peter would probably argue (to himself and others) that he kept the secrets that he had to protect his loved ones from being targeted by his enemies just for knowing him, but considering that his enemies who knew who he was still had a tendency to go after those loved ones even if they didn't know he was Spider-Man, it could be argued, perhaps slightly more convincingly, that he was really protecting himself all along from the fear of being rejected by those loved ones for how much danger he'd brought into their lives over the years, as per Liz Allan's reaction in the Spider-Man comics tying into Civil War after he publicly unmasked.

I feel like that's a pretty harsh view of Peter. He was a kid when that stuff happened. He was a kid who had been picked on relentlessly and had his uncle murdered. He's not a saint and of course he made mistakes and acted selfishly at times. I don't think that's indicative of him being an inherently bad person. There's a nature vs nurture argument that can be made for anybody (even though neither nature or nurture are things we don't choose), but I don't think a bad person would try as hard as Peter does or have the level of empathy he does. If Peter's flaws make him a bad person despite all the good things he's done, we're all in a lot of trouble.

I do think that losing all of your formative memories would make anybody unstable. Add to that he only has his most painful memories left, I think that could send anybody down a bad path.

[Huntsman Spider]

I feel like that's a pretty harsh view of Peter. He was a kid when that stuff happened. He was a kid who had been picked on relentlessly and had his uncle murdered. He's not a saint and of course he made mistakes and acted selfishly at times. I don't think that's indicative of him being an inherently bad person. There's a nature vs nurture argument that can be made for anybody (even though neither nature or nurture are things we don't choose), but I don't think a bad person would try as hard as Peter does or have the level of empathy he does. If Peter's flaws make him a bad person despite all the good things he's done, we're all in a lot of trouble.

I do think that losing all of your formative memories would make anybody unstable. Add to that he only has his most painful memories left, I think that could send anybody down a bad path.

Fair enough, in both respects. I wouldn't say he's a bad person, either, for all the reasons you pointed out, though there is room to argue that for all his nobility and self-sacrifice, which no one in their right mind would or could deny, he's not as good at doing right by those closest to him as he perhaps should be. As for The Chasm Formerly Known as Ben Reilly, I really do see your point, even if I fear the situation will simply be used to cement him as "the evil twin" to Peter, though the situation is much more complex and tragic than that.

[Kurolegacy]

I think that opening scene was deliberately calling back to Madelyne's nightmare in Inferno that catalyzed her transformation into the Goblin Queen, showing why and how she and Ben in his current state could relate to each other as kindred spirits.

Honestly, if Wells wanted to be clever, he could reveal that Maddie had influenced him into having that nightmare especially given that it was a direct reference to hers. But knowing how he’s writing this story to basically make Ben’s clone issues out to be the same as Maddie’s, it’s more than likely that it was just another reference.

[Pav]

at the mo, pav is doing a good job of convincing me that there's some merit to this dark web fuckery

Hahaha -- be careful not to confuse the enjoyment I get reading an issue with any notion of its quality! After all, I'm the guy with major nostalgia for the Scarlet Spider / New Warriors / Green Goblin crossover issues from the 90s. I don't think anyone would consider those issues to be masterpieces.

but the janine stuff? man, if i was even flirting with buying dark web ...now finding out she has been given powers and her own heel turn? nope. no thanks

I didn't feel like Beyond especially serviced Ben very well, but it was nice to have another era with a heroic Ben as Spider-Man with Janine again.

This is essentially my response regarding Janine, boots. I'd never argue that Ben or Janine are being used particularly well -- and in Janine's case, turning someone with her past into a supervillain is incredibly suspect. But I'm still in shock that she was brought back at all, and my hope (like with Ben) is that the more she's used, the likelier it is that she can gain appearances (and more fans!) and that a writer will eventually really nail her character, portraying her respectfully and growing the foundation (started by JMD) for the writers who come even later. As far as the powers -- again, if it's something that cements her as steady presence in the comics, I don't mind a little quantity over quality in the hopes that the quality will eventually exist to be read. Who knows what powerful story might be told with the symbolic nature of her powers?

Also, even if I don't prefer their heel turns, I have to say the Chasm status quo is more interesting to me now that Janine is Hallows' Eve, as I think reading a comic about them as a super-powered couple would be interesting.

Especially if Janine's deal with Maddie leads to a devilishly handsome baby with Ben.

for me personally, the test for this with ben is: can you see this happening to and working for peter?

but since ben's appeal to many is "peter but peter who walked a different path", i just can't see peter ever chasming in ben's place.

I 100% agree that the test to understanding Ben as a character is accepting that he and Peter should be written pretty much as the same character -- which, yes, sort of ruins every natural inclination that a writer may have regarding how to use a character and its clone, hence all these heel turns by Ben: I think it's natural for the writers to want to experiment with the "lesser" character -- and yet lovers of the Clone Saga like you and I know that the whole theme of the story is that Ben and Peter are equals in all ways that matter.

That being said, we now live in a world where Peter has not only momentarily joined the Jackal in attempting genocide but has also agreed to a deal with Mephisto (as has Ben!) -- so "what Peter would do" is treacherously nebulous

There's an interpretation of Peter's character that says he's a naturally selfish person who stays on the good side because of the ethical precepts Ben and May drummed into him. (The ethical term is enkratic: he does the right thing not out of natural inclination but only because he knows he ought to.) If he forgot those ethical precepts he could easily turn bad.
I think it's at best a half-truth but it's an interpretation.

I do think there's some truth in this interpretation, and it's also essentially the basis for an idea I've always wanted to explore if I were ever given the chance to write for Marvel: using Spidercide to explore the differences between Ditko!Spidey and Romita!Spidey. Thematically, I'd love to dig deeply into the notions of "power" and "responsibility" from vantage points that we don't often get to explore.

-Pav, who would read a comic book about Chasm and Hallows' Eve raising Baby Darkdevil...

[boots]

Hahaha -- be careful not to confuse the enjoyment I get reading an issue with any notion of its quality! After all, I'm the guy with major nostalgia for the Scarlet Spider / New Warriors / Green Goblin crossover issues from the 90s. I don't think anyone would consider those issues to be masterpieces.

ha, don't worry mate, i'm well aware (and respectful/envious) of your ability to compartmentalise the two when the occasion calls for it.

This is essentially my response regarding Janine, boots. I'd never argue that Ben or Janine are being used particularly well -- and in Janine's case, turning someone with her past into a supervillain is incredibly suspect. But I'm still in shock that she was brought back at all, and my hope (like with Ben) is that the more she's used, the likelier it is that she can gain appearances (and more fans!) and that a writer will eventually really nail her character, portraying her respectfully and growing the foundation (started by JMD) for the writers who come even later.

playing the long game, pav.

i think part of the problem for me is: are the trite tropes worth the end result? it seems like any and every base-line human character will eventually sprout super powers at some point. i'm fully aware of how ironic this complaint is since it was one of the main anti-clone saga concerns in the 90s, but... it's too far from street level for my tastes.

i guess you always become the thing you hate.

and for me the journey is as important as the destination.

the other part is the promise of the long game itself: "we just need to get through this desert to reach the oasis". i originally thought clone conspiracy brought us to that horizon, only there was another sand dune called ben reilly: the scarlet spider after which we stumbled into a further one called beyond.

as much chance as there might be for a ben reilly/ janine return to normality, the cyclical strip-mining of modern super hero comics means it's not unlikely that we'll hit yet another dune down the line.

are we perpetually chasing a mirage?

my poor old 90s knees just can't keep going.

[Refrax5]

ha, don't worry mate, i'm well aware (and respectful/envious) of your ability to compartmentalise the two when the occasion calls for it.



playing the long game, pav.

i think part of the problem for me is: are the trite tropes worth the end result? it seems like any and every base-line human character will eventually sprout super powers at some point. i'm fully aware of how ironic this complaint is since it was one of the main anti-clone saga concerns in the 90s, but... it's too far from street level for my tastes.

i guess you always become the thing you hate.

and for me the journey is as important as the destination.

the other part is the promise of the long game itself: "we just need to get through this desert to reach the oasis". i originally thought clone conspiracy brought us to that horizon, only there was another sand dune called ben reilly: the scarlet spider after which we stumbled into a further one called beyond.

as much chance as there might be for a ben reilly/ janine return to normality, the cyclical strip-mining of modern super hero comics means it's not unlikely that we'll hit yet another dune down the line.

are we perpetually chasing a mirage?

my poor old 90s knees just can't keep going.

One thing I like about the multiverse is that even if this Ben is going through this stuff, we know there's other Bens out there that are likely more like the one we remember and are doing okay. Knowing that more classic, heroic versions of Ben are out there lets me enjoy the ride with Chasm (somewhat) rather than being overly depressed by it.

Most of my favorite versions of Peter are multiverse versions at this point anyway, so I'm getting used to shrugging stuff off.

[Huntsman Spider]

Honestly, if Wells wanted to be clever, he could reveal that Maddie had influenced him into having that nightmare especially given that it was a direct reference to hers. But knowing how he’s writing this story to basically make Ben’s clone issues out to be the same as Maddie’s, it’s more than likely that it was just another reference.

Maybe he will, down the line in this arc, though like you indicate, I wouldn't exactly bet on it myself.

Hahaha -- be careful not to confuse the enjoyment I get reading an issue with any notion of its quality! After all, I'm the guy with major nostalgia for the Scarlet Spider / New Warriors / Green Goblin crossover issues from the 90s. I don't think anyone would consider those issues to be masterpieces.





This is essentially my response regarding Janine, boots. I'd never argue that Ben or Janine are being used particularly well -- and in Janine's case, turning someone with her past into a supervillain is incredibly suspect. But I'm still in shock that she was brought back at all, and my hope (like with Ben) is that the more she's used, the likelier it is that she can gain appearances (and more fans!) and that a writer will eventually really nail her character, portraying her respectfully and growing the foundation (started by JMD) for the writers who come even later. As far as the powers -- again, if it's something that cements her as steady presence in the comics, I don't mind a little quantity over quality in the hopes that the quality will eventually exist to be read. Who knows what powerful story might be told with the symbolic nature of her powers?

Also, even if I don't prefer their heel turns, I have to say the Chasm status quo is more interesting to me now that Janine is Hallows' Eve, as I think reading a comic about them as a super-powered couple would be interesting.

Especially if Janine's deal with Maddie leads to a devilishly handsome baby with Ben.





I 100% agree that the test to understanding Ben as a character is accepting that he and Peter should be written pretty much as the same character -- which, yes, sort of ruins every natural inclination that a writer may have regarding how to use a character and its clone, hence all these heel turns by Ben: I think it's natural for the writers to want to experiment with the "lesser" character -- and yet lovers of the Clone Saga like you and I know that the whole theme of the story is that Ben and Peter are equals in all ways that matter.

That being said, we now live in a world where Peter has not only momentarily joined the Jackal in attempting genocide but has also agreed to a deal with Mephisto (as has Ben!) -- so "what Peter would do" is treacherously nebulous




I do think there's some truth in this interpretation, and it's also essentially the basis for an idea I've always wanted to explore if I were ever given the chance to write for Marvel: using Spidercide to explore the differences between Ditko!Spidey and Romita!Spidey. Thematically, I'd love to dig deeply into the notions of "power" and "responsibility" from vantage points that we don't often get to explore.

-Pav, who would read a comic book about Chasm and Hallows' Eve raising Baby Darkdevil...

Would also like to read that comic, Pav, and it would make for a more linear explanation of Darkdevil's demon powers than how his origin went in MC2.

[boots]

That being said, we now live in a world where Peter has not only momentarily joined the Jackal in attempting genocide but has also agreed to a deal with Mephisto (as has Ben!) -- so "what Peter would do" is treacherously nebulous

forgot to add that, yup i don't disagree. we can find ways to make that work with in-universe parallels, but my complaint is more in the doylist than the watsonian.

in-universe we can point to peter acting in a similar fashion and find some satisfying synchronicity (whether intentional or not on the writer's parts), but using a time where peter was written awfully to back the time that ben is being written awfully isn't exactly satisfying.

that comparison in the doylist for me is that peter was still written as peter with more internal struggle and complexity than any of ben's heel turns so far. if marvel in their wisdom decided to give peter a year long heel turn, i'd bet they'd put a lot more thought into the portrayal.

[Huntsman Spider]

forgot to add that, yup i don't disagree. we can find ways to make that work with in-universe parallels, but my complaint is more in the doylist than the watsonian.

in-universe we can point to peter acting in a similar fashion and find some satisfying synchronicity (whether intentional or not on the writer's parts), but using a time where peter was written awfully to back the time that ben is being written awfully isn't exactly satisfying.

that comparison in the doylist for me is that peter was still written as peter with more internal struggle and complexity than any of ben's heel turns so far. if marvel in their wisdom decided to give peter a year long heel turn, i'd bet they'd put a lot more thought into the portrayal.

Probably, yeah.

[Sr. Bungle]

forgot to add that, yup i don't disagree. we can find ways to make that work with in-universe parallels, but my complaint is more in the doylist than the watsonian.

in-universe we can point to peter acting in a similar fashion and find some satisfying synchronicity (whether intentional or not on the writer's parts), but using a time where peter was written awfully to back the time that ben is being written awfully isn't exactly satisfying.

that comparison in the doylist for me is that peter was still written as peter with more internal struggle and complexity than any of ben's heel turns so far. if marvel in their wisdom decided to give peter a year long heel turn, i'd bet they'd put a lot more thought into the portrayal.

Yeah, but that's expected. It doesn't help that Ben's selective amnesia is too convenient, you can see the strings from a mile away.