The DCU Timeline Discussion Thread!

[Dataweaver]

Mostly I view DC's timeline as it relates to Superman and Batman. When did Clark do X, how long before Bruce did Y, stuff like that. Everything else filters in and around that stuff. I try to stay straight with the publishing history too, I don't want to say that, I dunno, Kyle Rayner was the Green Lantern during Crisis on Infinite Earths or something. Obviously reboots and retcons can't allow that to always work; according to the New52 Steel was the second or third public superhero, showing up 6-12 months after Clark, while post-Crisis Steel didn't debut until Clark was deep into his career. In those situations I tend to go with the original idea, unless the reboot/retcon was utterly superior or sticking with the original idea somehow causes the entire timeline to stop making any sense at all.

It doesn't fit with everything as the page presents it; by my reckoning Young Justice should be in their early 20's somewhere, and the adult Titans should be around 30. And stuff's a little awkward with the JSA and Infinity Inc. But there's no air tight, perfect timeline for DC and it works well enough for me, so >shrug<

This is basically my approach as well. In particular, I see the Robins as the thorniest problem, because kids have this nasty tendency to grow up. If you can work out a timeline that makes sense for Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian, then you can attach publication dates to it and have nearly everything else align to that. Jon Kent is the single biggest issue to deal with there, in that inserting a decade into the timeline to let him grow up naturally throws things out of whack for everyone else. My preferred solution is to reinstate something close to his original history: sometime around the point that Flashpoint happened, Lois and Clark went missing; more recently, around the time of Superman Reborn, they returned with a nine-year-old son and a story about having been stuck on another world (Earth 52) for a decade, until that world's Superman helped bring them home. My “backup option” is to move the marriage of Lois and Clark and Jon's birth to an earlier point in Superman's career, but out of order with everything else: so instead of Lois being Clark's fiancee when Doomsday strikes, she's already his wife and Jon's mother. But I must repeat, that's my second choice; my first choice does no damage to the chain of events, and is in fact a demonstration of Ascended's principle of sticking with the original idea.

As for the JSA, I've come up with a solution for them which I think works very nicely, and aligns with what Johns is doing in The New Golden Age: restore most of the JSA's pre-Crisis history as events that happened in the 20th century, from 1940–1985; and apply most of the post-Crisis retcons to this period (e.g., no 20th century Superman or Batman, and the addition of the Young All-Stars to the timeline). This works because Roy Thomas was treating the JSA timeline that he was developing in the late 70s/early 80s as if Earth 2 was operating on real-time; and he was introducing “fixes” such as Ian Karkull to explain how the JSA was still relatively young by the then-modern end of the timeline. Keep those elements in play, and you can say that in the 20th century, publication dates and In-universe dates are one and the same, right up to the Crisis on Infinite Earths.

And that's the other part of my proposed fix: instead of Earth One and Earth Two having a series of crossovers starting with the Flash of Two Worlds and ending with the Crisis on Infinite Earths, recast those events as time travel crossovers between the 20th century and the 21st century; and where the Crisis on Infinite Earths originally ended with multiple Earth's combined into one, have this recasting of it end with characters from the 20th century relocated to the 21st century. So Infinity Inc debuted in 1984; but a year later, they were transported to the 21st century and completed their run there. That's why Jade and Obsidian, for example, are pushing 30 instead of being in their mid-50s; and as the 21st century timeline continues to slide forward, they'll remain in their early 30s for awhile instead of pushing into retirement age in a decade, which is what would happen without the CoIE-induced time skip.

Other issues to address:

• How much of the Bronze Age happened? In particular, Superman: was there ever a time when the Daily Planet was bought out by WGBS and Clark became a TV Anchor? But there's also some Batman history that got lost, namely Jason Todd's pre-Crisis history. I'm not just talking about the rewrite or his origin story; by the time of the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Jason Todd was on the verge of being adopted by a reformed criminal named Nocturna. Did any of that actually happen? Likewise with Wonder Woman: were there any “Diana Prince years”, when Wonder Woman was depowered and retired the Wonder Woman costume but became a sort of “private secret agent” for a time?

• post-Crisis reboots. In particular, there were retcons to Wonder Woman and Hawkman that had them debuting after the Crisis; with Hawkman, his arrival was pushed so far forward in time that they actually had to come up with an explanation for the Hawkman who had been serving with the JLI for several years of publication. Wonder Woman's situation wasn't quite as severe; but it still leaves some question about how to line up her post-Crisis history with the new status of her debuting way back in 1939.

• Flashpoint. We now have Earth 52 as a world where the New 52 happened more or less as published; I take advantage of this fact in my preferred solution to Jon's early life. But what happened on Earth 0 between Flashpoint and Superman Reborn, if not the New 52? The status quo changed considerably between those two points, sometimes in ways that defy “natural progression” explanations, such as Tim Drake's age. Some of the New 52 events in this time period happened; but not necessarily all of them: I would have no problem whatsoever leaving all of Lobdell's Teen Titans stuff strictly on Earth 52, for instance. I'd also be inclined to leave Batman's Zero Year there, along with all of the revisions to the Robin backstories that were introduced there. Just as a few examples. But somehow, we went from Tim running around as the 19-year-old Red Robin who had been crucial to the Return of Bruce Wayne and who had earned Ra's al-Ghul's respect and enmity to him as Batman's 16(?)-year-old “second in command” of the Gotham Knights, who was getting ready to head off to college early. Basically, you should look at each hero as they were just before Flashpoint vs. how they were about a year into Rebirth, and ask how much of the intervening history still makes sense — and for that history that doesn't, ask what replaced it. In some of the more extreme cases, some of the pre-Flashpoint history might be gone: while I don't like the idea, it's possible to resolve the oddities with Tim's age by saying that his pre-Flashpoint career as Red Robin never happened.

Basically, Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint both introduced some discontinuities that need to be addressed. There are also a few examples of events that have been retold several times, such as the first clash between the JLA and the CSA: as far as I know, we have no less than four “first encounters” between the two: Crisis on Earth 3, JLA Earth 2, Forever Evil, and (I think) Battle for Earth 3. Which one is in continuity, and when did it happen?

[bat39]

This is basically my approach as well. In particular, I see the Robins as the thorniest problem, because kids have this nasty tendency to grow up. If you can work out a timeline that makes sense for Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian, then you can attach publication dates to it and have nearly everything else align to that. Jon Kent is the single biggest issue to deal with there, in that inserting a decade into the timeline to let him grow up naturally throws things out of whack for everyone else. My preferred solution is to reinstate something close to his original history: sometime around the point that Flashpoint happened, Lois and Clark went missing; more recently, around the time of Superman Reborn, they returned with a nine-year-old son and a story about having been stuck on another world (Earth 52) for a decade, until that world's Superman helped bring them home. My “backup option” is to move the marriage of Lois and Clark and Jon's birth to an earlier point in Superman's career, but out of order with everything else: so instead of Lois being Clark's fiancee when Doomsday strikes, she's already his wife and Jon's mother. But I must repeat, that's my second choice; my first choice does no damage to the chain of events, and is in fact a demonstration of Ascended's principle of sticking with the original idea.

As for the JSA, I've come up with a solution for them which I think works very nicely, and aligns with what Johns is doing in The New Golden Age: restore most of the JSA's pre-Crisis history as events that happened in the 20th century, from 1940–1985; and apply most of the post-Crisis retcons to this period (e.g., no 20th century Superman or Batman, and the addition of the Young All-Stars to the timeline). This works because Roy Thomas was treating the JSA timeline that he was developing in the late 70s/early 80s as if Earth 2 was operating on real-time; and he was introducing “fixes” such as Ian Karkull to explain how the JSA was still relatively young by the then-modern end of the timeline. Keep those elements in play, and you can say that in the 20th century, publication dates and In-universe dates are one and the same, right up to the Crisis on Infinite Earths.

And that's the other part of my proposed fix: instead of Earth One and Earth Two having a series of crossovers starting with the Flash of Two Worlds and ending with the Crisis on Infinite Earths, recast those events as time travel crossovers between the 20th century and the 21st century; and where the Crisis on Infinite Earths originally ended with multiple Earth's combined into one, have this recasting of it end with characters from the 20th century relocated to the 21st century. So Infinity Inc debuted in 1984; but a year later, they were transported to the 21st century and completed their run there. That's why Jade and Obsidian, for example, are pushing 30 instead of being in their mid-50s; and as the 21st century timeline continues to slide forward, they'll remain in their early 30s for awhile instead of pushing into retirement age in a decade, which is what would happen without the CoIE-induced time skip.

Other issues to address:

• How much of the Bronze Age happened? In particular, Superman: was there ever a time when the Daily Planet was bought out by WGBS and Clark became a TV Anchor? But there's also some Batman history that got lost, namely Jason Todd's pre-Crisis history. I'm not just talking about the rewrite or his origin story; by the time of the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Jason Todd was on the verge of being adopted by a reformed criminal named Nocturna. Did any of that actually happen? Likewise with Wonder Woman: were there any “Diana Prince years”, when Wonder Woman was depowered and retired the Wonder Woman costume but became a sort of “private secret agent” for a time?

• post-Crisis reboots. In particular, there were retcons to Wonder Woman and Hawkman that had them debuting after the Crisis; with Hawkman, his arrival was pushed so far forward in time that they actually had to come up with an explanation for the Hawkman who had been serving with the JLI for several years of publication. Wonder Woman's situation wasn't quite as severe; but it still leaves some question about how to line up her post-Crisis history with the new status of her debuting way back in 1939.

• Flashpoint. We now have Earth 52 as a world where the New 52 happened more or less as published; I take advantage of this fact in my preferred solution to Jon's early life. But what happened on Earth 0 between Flashpoint and Superman Reborn, if not the New 52? The status quo changed considerably between those two points, sometimes in ways that defy “natural progression” explanations, such as Tim Drake's age. Some of the New 52 events in this time period happened; but not necessarily all of them: I would have no problem whatsoever leaving all of Lobdell's Teen Titans stuff strictly on Earth 52, for instance. I'd also be inclined to leave Batman's Zero Year there, along with all of the revisions to the Robin backstories that were introduced there. Just as a few examples. But somehow, we went from Tim running around as the 19-year-old Red Robin who had been crucial to the Return of Bruce Wayne and who had earned Ra's al-Ghul's respect and enmity to him as Batman's 16(?)-year-old “second in command” of the Gotham Knights, who was getting ready to head off to college early. Basically, you should look at each hero as they were just before Flashpoint vs. how they were about a year into Rebirth, and ask how much of the intervening history still makes sense — and for that history that doesn't, ask what replaced it. In some of the more extreme cases, some of the pre-Flashpoint history might be gone: while I don't like the idea, it's possible to resolve the oddities with Tim's age by saying that his pre-Flashpoint career as Red Robin never happened.

Basically, Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint both introduced some discontinuities that need to be addressed. There are also a few examples of events that have been retold several times, such as the first clash between the JLA and the CSA: as far as I know, we have no less than four “first encounters” between the two: Crisis on Earth 3, JLA Earth 2, Forever Evil, and (I think) Battle for Earth 3. Which one is in continuity, and when did it happen?

Agreed with you on most of this. Here's my take on some of the specific issues you've raised:

1. Despite the fact that the Bronze Age helped build the modern DCU it's an era that's woefully neglected, with most of the nostalgia reserved for the Silver Age (and occasionally the Golden Age) That said, I do believe a lot of Bronze Age stuff could easily fit into canon. Clark's time as a WGBS anchor could easily fit somewhere into his early years as Superman pre-marriage. Of course, some stuff cannot fit in - Pre-COIE Jason Todd for instance. COIE hard-rebooted Jason and that's how things have been for the last nearly 35 years, so I don't see that being rolled back.

2. Wonder Woman is an interesting case. I'd argue that her continuity has been a bit of a mess since IC restored her to the founding roaster of the JLA. Did those early Post-COIE Perez adventures now happen during the early days of the League or much later after the (in-universe) events of COIE? How much of her Silver Age history was restored back then? The Perez origin was anyway overwritten by the New 52 and then by Rebirth, but now we've got another wrinkle with a version of her Golden Age history being restored. So honestly, when it comes to Diana, there's a lot that needs to be answered. But I do feel that with her having been around for decades, it shouldn't be too hard for the 'I-Ching' era to be slotted in somewhere.

3. This is complicated by the fact that the timeline-altering shenanigans of Flashpoint and Rebirth are acknowledged by characters in-universe. On some level, it seems we're still in the New 52 continuity, which has had elements of past continuities 'grandfathered in', and with the characters (some of them anyway) being aware of this. I think for the most part we're supposed to assume that the 'present-day' New 52 stuff still happened, albeit within the context of a larger DC continuity that's (loosely) based on the Pre-Flashpoint version(s). For some characters/stories its easy - Batman in particular. For others, things are a lot more complicated. Consider Green Arrow for instance - his New 52/Rebirth era stories are still canon, but a lot of his past continuity (dating back to the Golden Age!) has been seemingly restored as well. So when did he first meet and fall in love with Dinah? Recently, or years ago during the first iteration of the Justice League? Then with Superman, it seems like the New 52 stuff has simply been wiped out, barring a few small details like him having worn that armored suit for a while.

I think the general rule of thumb is that we're notionally still in the New 52 continuity, with a lot of pre-Flashpoint continuity restored, and so in a lot of cases 'classic' continuity overrides the New 52 and in some cases details of 'classic' continuity and the New 52 are changed to accommodate each other (and the sliding timescale).

[Aahz]

9 years ago

New Teen Titans are formed. Dick becomes Nightwing. COIE occurs. Jason becomes Robin.

8 years ago

Jason is killed by the Joker. Barbara is paralyzed.

7 years ago

Tim becomes Robin.

If you go by the original comics the correct order of events should imo look like that:

9 years ago

New Teen Titans are formed. Jason becomes Robin. Dick becomes Nightwing.

8 years ago

COIE occurs.

7 years ago

Barbara is paralyzed. Jason is killed by the Joker. Tim becomes Robin.




Since Dick passed the mantle to Jason before Judas Contract.

And Killing Joke, Death in the Family and Lonely Place of Dying happened all (in universe) all just a few month apart, and Killing Joke is referenced in within Death in the Family and happened therefore first (iirc Barbara is even in Wheel Chair at Jason's Funeral), and Tim got the Robin mantle around Christmas the same year.

[Dataweaver]

Agreed with you on most of this. Here's my take on some of the specific issues you've raised:

1. Despite the fact that the Bronze Age helped build the modern DCU it's an era that's woefully neglected, with most of the nostalgia reserved for the Silver Age (and occasionally the Golden Age) That said, I do believe a lot of Bronze Age stuff could easily fit into canon. Clark's time as a WGBS anchor could easily fit somewhere into his early years as Superman pre-marriage. Of course, some stuff cannot fit in - Pre-COIE Jason Todd for instance. COIE hard-rebooted Jason and that's how things have been for the last nearly 35 years, so I don't see that being rolled back.

In short, it's an Earth 1985 thing. In the same way you can go to Earth 52 to find a faithful representation of the New 52, including all of its history rewrites, you can go to Earth 1985 to find the pre-Crisis Earth 1, complete with everything as it was before the post-Crisis era changed it. And in the same way that most of the New 52 “current events” still happened in some form post-Rebirth, much of the Bronze Age history still happened, too. The devil, however, is in the details: if we start with a baseline of “if it could have happened in the current timeline, then it did”, then what gets excluded, becoming distinguishing characteristics of Earth 1985 and Earth 52, respectively?

Again, part of the issue is that several pre-Crisis stories have since been retold in a more modern context. From Superman's timeline: Kara Zor-El arrived on Earth and had literally her entire career as Supergirl before dying in the Crisis; then, in 2004, just before Infinite Crisis, Superman and Batman found Kara Zor-El trapped in a Kryptonite meteorite. That's two tellings of Kara's first arrival on Earth, differing substantially both in terms of what happened and in terms of when it happened. Another example is the bottled city of Kandor: the pre-Crisis version of the city was eventually taken to a planet named Rokyn orbiting a red star and restored to full size there. Post-Crisis, Kandor didn't even make its first appearance until the late 2000s, during Johns' Superman run; and it was (almost immediately) restored to full size in the Solar System on an artificial planet created just for it on the opposite side of the Sun (which any astrophysicist will tell you it's the absolute worst place to put a planet; but I digress) at the start of the New Krypton story arc. Again, two tellings of the same events, but differing drastically in terms of what exactly happened and when it happened. It would be helpful to identify other cases where pre-Crisis stories for retold post-Crisis, along with a general rule for how to deal with them, assuming a general rule can even be established.

2. Wonder Woman is an interesting case. I'd argue that her continuity has been a bit of a mess since IC restored her to the founding roster of the JLA. Did those early Post-COIE Perez adventures now happen during the early days of the League or much later after the (in-universe) events of COIE? How much of her Silver Age history was restored back then? The Perez origin was anyway overwritten by the New 52 and then by Rebirth, but now we've got another wrinkle with a version of her Golden Age history being restored. So honestly, when it comes to Diana, there's a lot that needs to be answered. But I do feel that with her having been around for decades, it shouldn't be too hard for the 'I-Ching' era to be slotted in somewhere.

This is another case that might involve a “retelling”: during the “One Year Later” story arc right after Infinite Crisis, it was revealed that Diana spent that year in what was obviously supposed to be a modern “retelling” of the “I-Ching” era. Again, details of the two versions of events differ considerably, both in terms of “what” and “when”.

3. This is complicated by the fact that the timeline-altering shenanigans of Flashpoint and Rebirth are acknowledged by characters in-universe. On some level, it seems we're still in the New 52 continuity, which has had elements of past continuities 'grandfathered in', and with the characters (some of them anyway) being aware of this. I think for the most part we're supposed to assume that the 'present-day' New 52 stuff still happened, albeit within the context of a larger DC continuity that's (loosely) based on the Pre-Flashpoint version(s). For some characters/stories its easy - Batman in particular.

Batman and Green Lantern, actually; as in both cases, the writers were allowed to continue the stories they had been telling before Flashpoint as if nothing has changed.

For others, things are a lot more complicated. Consider Green Arrow for instance - his New 52/Rebirth era stories are still canon, but a lot of his past continuity (dating back to the Golden Age!) has been seemingly restored as well. So when did he first meet and fall in love with Dinah? Recently, or years ago during the first iteration of the Justice League?

This would be another example of a retelling; though in this case, I think the simplest approach would be to leave the “Oliver and Dinah only got together recently” stuff on Earth 52, and say that on Earth 0, they first met in the Silver Age.

Then with Superman, it seems like the New 52 stuff has simply been wiped out, barring a few small details like him having worn that armored suit for a while.

Pretty much.

I think the general rule of thumb is that we're notionally still in the New 52 continuity, with a lot of pre-Flashpoint continuity restored, and so in a lot of cases 'classic' continuity overrides the New 52 and in some cases details of 'classic' continuity and the New 52 are changed to accommodate each other (and the sliding timescale).

The impression I'm getting is that either Superman Reborn or Doomsday Clock undid most of the timeline changes that New 52 brought about. And then there's the Infinite Frontier notion of “everything happened”, which was basically the DC staff saying “we know none of this makes sense chronologically, and we want you to just ignore all of the difficulties” — pretty much the opposite of the premise of this thread.

[Aahz]

But there's also some Batman history that got lost, namely Jason Todd's pre-Crisis history. I'm not just talking about the rewrite or his origin story; by the time of the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Jason Todd was on the verge of being adopted by a reformed criminal named Nocturna. Did any of that actually happen?

Technical with the "everything is canon"-thing DC is doing now, Jason should actually remember his pre crisis incarnation.
I mean if the others can remember both their new52 and pre flashpoint versions, Jason should also regain the memories of his pre crisis version.

[Dataweaver]

If that's still in play.

[sifighter]

Well I don’t feel like studying for my bar exam so I’m going to do something perceive as easier….trying to figure out the modern dc timeline. Nothing too serious and I expect to be wrong, I’m just doing some thinking based on current events and stories. I’ll number events to keep my thoughts straight.

1. Wonder Woman is born, she’s immortal now and is a part of dc history. Given that she’s got to come first.

2. The Golden age begins. Wonder Woman comes to man’s world, the JSA form, the Seven Soldiers of Victory with a time traveling green arrow and speedy, and era of the missing sidekicks.

3. JSA disbands due to the Red Scare.

4. Superman crashes to earth, Batman’s parents are shot

5. Superboy is around, Batman begins to train across the world and fight Ghostmaker.

6. Superman comes to metropolis and Batman year one. Flash is struck by lightning, Hal Jordan gets his ring, Aquaman and Martian Manhunter arrive.

7. The Justice League forms, era of sidekicks renews.

8.Teen Titans form, Supergirl lands on Earth, possible introduction of the Doom Patrol, Shazam,and Guy Gardner

9. The era of Mark Waid’s Worlds Finest run, everyone’s older but Dick isn’t nightwing yet.

10. A bold new precrisis era: JSA reforms, Infinity Inc. forms, New Teen Titans/the birth of Nightwing, Supergirl goes to college, Justice League Detroit, and the arrival of John Stewart.

11. Crisis on Infinite Earths! (Though likely different then how it went down because retcons of course)

12. Post-Crisis Era: Justice League international forms, Wally West the Flash, Jason Todd Robin, creation of the Suicide Squad.

13. The 90’s: Hal Jordan becomes parallax/Zero Hour, Kyle Rayner arrives on the scene, JSA become old and some die, Superman dies and returns, Batman is broken, Jason Todd killed. The era of sidekicks like Tim Drake, Conner Kent, Bart Allen, and Cassie Sandsmark. Oracle starts up and forms the birds of prey.

14. JSA reforms with classic and new members, young Justice forms, Grant Morrison’s JLA form, death of Hal Jordan and rise of the Spectre.

Side note: Somewhere around 13-14 Jon Kent and Damian Wayne should have been born. We know Jon was born after Death of Superman.

15. Green Lantern Corps rebirth and revival of Hal Jordan, Young Justice disbands and becomes the Teen Titans.

16. Infinite Crisis: Death of Ted Kord and Arrival of Jaime Reyes, the reveal of Barry Allen being alive. Damian Wayne appears

17. Final Crisis: Barry Allen returns, Batman “dies”, Dick Grayson is Batman. Bruce Wayne eventually returns.

18. Flashpoint: JSA and Wally West disappear, Conner Kent thrown into the multiverse

19. Doomsday Clock/Rebirth Era: JSA, Wally West, and Conner Kent return. Ted Kord returns to life, Aquaman has a baby girl, Jackson Hyde is Aqualad, Wallace West is Kid Flash, Green Arrows sister Emiko is Red Arrow, Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz green lanterns, Jon becomes Superboy and later 16-17. The Shazam family forms. Justice League Dark has formed, Khalid Nassour becomes Dr. Fate. Alfred dies.

20. Post Death Metal: the first appearances of Jo Muellin Green Lantern, Yara Flor Wondergirl, and Jace Fox Batman. Jackson takes up the name Aquaman and Jon takes up the name Superman. Damian Wayne strikes out on his own. Shazam family shrinks to Billy and Mary with Malik given powers by Black Adam. Teen Titans open school, Wally West is The Flash again.

And again this was easier to me then studying to become a lawyer.

[Ascended]

This is basically my approach as well. In particular, I see the Robins as the thorniest problem, because kids have this nasty tendency to grow up. If you can work out a timeline that makes sense for Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian, then you can attach publication dates to it and have nearly everything else align to that.

Yup, those Robins do prove to be a problem. Especially if you want to give DC's various eras the breathing room they "should" have in the fictional history. Nobody actually wants Dick's tenure as Robin squeezed into a single year, but giving him (and Tim, etc) their proper due stretches out the timeline by a lot. Hell, Damian alone adds what, three or four years?

Jon Kent is the single biggest issue to deal with there, in that inserting a decade into the timeline to let him grow up naturally throws things out of whack for everyone else.

Jon's a problem, yeah. I don't like the idea of the Kents being "missing" for a decade, outside of time. It just seems unnecessary to jump through those hoops when we have to ensure Bruce is old enough to have Damian anyway. I know that's how Convergence played out, but given the wonky nature of that event we shouldn't feel beholden to it.

It's far from ideal, but I think DC just needs to do what they're doing now and say that Jon was born after the Kents got married, and he was just always "in the background." Super continuity started going off the rails not too long after the wedding (Loeb's Silver Age retcons, the string of different origins, etc) so there's cracks in the wall where Jon can be worked in.

It's not a great solution, but it's simple, clean (ish), and easy. And given this is all just background info and history I'd rather do that than cook up a reason for a ten year old to suddenly drop into the world.

Steve Trevor is another issue. People love the idea of Diana being immortal and having been around since the JSA, but if you do that then Steve is old and (probably) dead now, which screws up a lot of pre-Crisis and New52 history and removes Diana's most well known love interest. Personally, I think the answer there is that after years of helping Diana, the gods reward Steve with immortality. No powers, no strength or durability, he can still die if hurt, he just doesn't age. That's another imperfect solution but it's fairly straightforward and you can bend the published history around it to create a relatively stable timeline.

Plus, that slides Steve closer to the Captain America mold, and I've long thought the solution to making Steve Trevor fun, interesting, and a worthy love interest for Diana was to make him a powerless Steve Rogers.

[bat39]

Yup, those Robins do prove to be a problem. Especially if you want to give DC's various eras the breathing room they "should" have in the fictional history. Nobody actually wants Dick's tenure as Robin squeezed into a single year, but giving him (and Tim, etc) their proper due stretches out the timeline by a lot. Hell, Damian alone adds what, three or four years?



Jon's a problem, yeah. I don't like the idea of the Kents being "missing" for a decade, outside of time. It just seems unnecessary to jump through those hoops when we have to ensure Bruce is old enough to have Damian anyway. I know that's how Convergence played out, but given the wonky nature of that event we shouldn't feel beholden to it.

It's far from ideal, but I think DC just needs to do what they're doing now and say that Jon was born after the Kents got married, and he was just always "in the background." Super continuity started going off the rails not too long after the wedding (Loeb's Silver Age retcons, the string of different origins, etc) so there's cracks in the wall where Jon can be worked in.

It's not a great solution, but it's simple, clean (ish), and easy. And given this is all just background info and history I'd rather do that than cook up a reason for a ten year old to suddenly drop into the world.

Steve Trevor is another issue. People love the idea of Diana being immortal and having been around since the JSA, but if you do that then Steve is old and (probably) dead now, which screws up a lot of pre-Crisis and New52 history and removes Diana's most well known love interest. Personally, I think the answer there is that after years of helping Diana, the gods reward Steve with immortality. No powers, no strength or durability, he can still die if hurt, he just doesn't age. That's another imperfect solution but it's fairly straightforward and you can bend the published history around it to create a relatively stable timeline.

Plus, that slides Steve closer to the Captain America mold, and I've long thought the solution to making Steve Trevor fun, interesting, and a worthy love interest for Diana was to make him a powerless Steve Rogers.

You're right about Jon. The problem though remains Jon's age - if he's chronologically 11, that means its been at least 12 years since the Death/Return of Superman...which means that Tim's generation should be in their early-to-mid 20's, rather than in their late teens. The other option is to say that Death/Return happened 'earlier' in the DC timeline, when Dick was still Robin, but that causes a bunch of other continuity issues. Dataweaver's suggestion is that the marriage and Jon's birth simply happened before Death/Return, which doesn't sound right to me either...but it's not like we have great options anyway.

When it comes to Steve Trevor - I'm actually in favor of him being resurrected in the modern era, with no memory of his past life to begin with (and Diana possibly having her memories wiped as well). Though DC so far has avoided depicting a Golden Age Steve Trevor as part of the current timeline, to my knowledge.

[Gero4568]

With current continuity, I'm operating under the assumption that it's nominally the same as Post-Infinite Crisis, with a few years of more recent stories tacked on. Chris J. Miller's Unauthorized Chronology of the DC Universe estimated a 23 year timeline up to Flashpoint, which is reasonable. Since Damian was ten then, and is fourteen or fifteen now, with Jon being three years younger, I'll frame this a twenty seven year timeline to accommodate.

Year One - Superman and Batman first emerge

Year Two - Long Halloween, Wonder Woman Returns, Aquman debuts?

Year Three - Dark Victory, Dick becomes Robin, J'onn brought to Earth, Barry becomes Flash

Year Four - Kid Flash debuts, Hal Jordan debuts, JLA forms, JLA/JSA Team-Ups begin

Year Five - Teen Titans form, Batgirl debuts, Red Tornado created, Doom Patrol dies

Year Six - Black Canary joins JL, Satellite Era begins, Hard Traveling Heroes begins

Year Seven - Titans disband, Speedy deals with heroin addiction, John Stewart becomes a GL, Seven Soldiers return

Year Eight - Arthur Jr. killed, Babs elected to Congress, OG Titans reunite

Year Nine - Terry Sloane dies, NTT forms

Year Ten - Infinity Inc. and Outsiders form

Year Eleven - Judas Contract, Jason debuts as Robin, CoIE, Legends

Year Twelve - Millennium, Damian Born, Killing Joke, Death in the Family, Invasion!

Year Thirteen - JLE Forms, Lonely Place of Dying, Armageddon, War of the Gods, Eclipso: Darkness Within, Death of Superman

Year Fourteen - Reign of the Supermen, Knightfall, Zero Hour

Year Fifteen - Connor Hawke Debuts, Final Night, Clark and Lois Marry, Jon Born, Cataclysm

Year Sixteen - No Man's Land, Wally Marries Linda, Tower of Babel

Year Seventeen - President Lex, Ollie Resurrected, Our Worlds at War

Year Eighteen - Bruce Wayne: Murderer, Graduation Day

Year Nineteen - Hush, Identity Crisis

Year Twenty - Under the Hood, Infinite Crisis, 52 Begins

Year Twenty One - 52 Ends, Damian Debuts, Sinestro Corps War

Year Twenty Two - Final Crisis, DickBat begins

Year Twenty Three - Bruce Returns, Batman Incorporated, Flashpoint

Year Twenty Four - Trinity War, Forever Evil

Year Twenty Five - Darkseid War, Wally's Rebirth

Year Twenty Six - Doomsday Clock, Justice-Doom War

Year Twenty Seven - Death Metal resets Multiverse, Infinite Frontier, Dark Crisis, Flashpoint Beyond

[Ascended]

You're right about Jon. The problem though remains Jon's age - if he's chronologically 11, that means its been at least 12 years since the Death/Return of Superman...which means that Tim's generation should be in their early-to-mid 20's, rather than in their late teens.

I don't think there's any way to make the Young Justice kids make sense at their current ages. They simply can't still be 16-18. Unless you say they were trapped in some kind of timeless limbo for several years anyway, but DC ignoring them is not a good in-universe excuse for limbo.

In this, I say it's DC who have made a mistake; we shouldn't try to follow their lead here. YJ should be older than DC treats them.

When it comes to Steve Trevor - I'm actually in favor of him being resurrected in the modern era, with no memory of his past life to begin with (and Diana possibly having her memories wiped as well). Though DC so far has avoided depicting a Golden Age Steve Trevor as part of the current timeline, to my knowledge.

Why the memory wipe?

And no, I don't think DC has done...well, anything really, with Diana being around in the Golden Age. Certainly nothing with Steve that I'm aware of. Though I did drop her book a while ago before the current creators came in, so I may have missed something?

Oh, another issue is Barry and Iris. Did Iris die? Did they get married and retire in the Legion's future before Barry died in the Crisis? There's a number of wrinkles in the Flash history that don't really make any sense now.

Waid is turning Supergirl into a problem as well, I think. He's writing her as if she were around before the Crisis, but if so we need a rebirth story that we've never gotten and her current origin needs to be dropped.

@Gero: That timeline looks pretty good. Runs a little longer than I think we need, I'd trim it down to twenty years or so, but COIE hitting roughly around year ten feels properly epic and correct, and seems like a good benchmark for working other things into the timeline.

[Dataweaver]

1. Wonder Woman is born, she’s immortal now and is a part of dc history. Given that she’s got to come first.

2. The Golden age begins. Wonder Woman comes to man’s world, the JSA form, the Seven Soldiers of Victory with a time traveling green arrow and speedy, and era of the missing sidekicks.

3. JSA disbands due to the Red Scare.

4. Superman crashes to earth, Batman’s parents are shot

5. Superboy is around, Batman begins to train across the world and fight Ghostmaker.

6. Superman comes to metropolis and Batman year one. Flash is struck by lightning, Hal Jordan gets his ring, Aquaman and Martian Manhunter arrive.

7. The Justice League forms, era of sidekicks renews.

8.Teen Titans form, Supergirl lands on Earth, possible introduction of the Doom Patrol, Shazam,and Guy Gardner

9. The era of Mark Waid’s Worlds Finest run, everyone’s older but Dick isn’t nightwing yet.

10. A bold new precrisis era: JSA reforms, Infinity Inc. forms, New Teen Titans/the birth of Nightwing, Supergirl goes to college, Justice League Detroit, and the arrival of John Stewart.

11. Crisis on Infinite Earths! (Though likely different then how it went down because retcons of course)

12. Post-Crisis Era: Justice League international forms, Wally West the Flash, Jason Todd Robin, creation of the Suicide Squad.

13. The 90’s: Hal Jordan becomes parallax/Zero Hour, Kyle Rayner arrives on the scene, JSA become old and some die, Superman dies and returns, Batman is broken, Jason Todd killed. The era of sidekicks like Tim Drake, Conner Kent, Bart Allen, and Cassie Sandsmark. Oracle starts up and forms the birds of prey.

14. JSA reforms with classic and new members, young Justice forms, Grant Morrison’s JLA form, death of Hal Jordan and rise of the Spectre.

Side note: Somewhere around 13-14 Jon Kent and Damian Wayne should have been born. We know Jon was born after Death of Superman.

15. Green Lantern Corps rebirth and revival of Hal Jordan, Young Justice disbands and becomes the Teen Titans.

16. Infinite Crisis: Death of Ted Kord and Arrival of Jaime Reyes, the reveal of Barry Allen being alive. Damian Wayne appears

17. Final Crisis: Barry Allen returns, Batman “dies”, Dick Grayson is Batman. Bruce Wayne eventually returns.

18. Flashpoint: JSA and Wally West disappear, Conner Kent thrown into the multiverse

19. Doomsday Clock/Rebirth Era: JSA, Wally West, and Conner Kent return. Ted Kord returns to life, Aquaman has a baby girl, Jackson Hyde is Aqualad, Wallace West is Kid Flash, Green Arrows sister Emiko is Red Arrow, Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz green lanterns, Jon becomes Superboy and later 16-17. The Shazam family forms. Justice League Dark has formed, Khalid Nassour becomes Dr. Fate. Alfred dies.

20. Post Death Metal: the first appearances of Jo Muellin Green Lantern, Yara Flor Wondergirl, and Jace Fox Batman. Jackson takes up the name Aquaman and Jon takes up the name Superman. Damian Wayne strikes out on his own. Shazam family shrinks to Billy and Mary with Malik given powers by Black Adam. Teen Titans open school, Wally West is The Flash again.

The main disagreement I have with this is that it tries to place the original return of the JSA, and the formation of Infinity Inc, on the sliding timeline. I like the fact that Johns has all but restored the “two worlds” aspect of the pre-Crisis JSA by placing them in series instead of in parallel: not just the Golden Age JSA adventures, but also the Silver and Bronze Age JSA adventures happened in the 20th century and are pegged to the actual dates the stories were published. That is, 1940–1985 is “the world of the original JSA”; and the early 21st century (and, for now, the very tail end of the 20th century) is the world of the JLA, with the crossovers between them now being based on time travel instead of dimension hopping. That moves the first part of 10 to between 3 and 4, and turns 11 into a bridge between 1985 on the JSA side and somewhere in the middle of the sliding 21st century timeline on the JLA side — and allows 20th century heroes like Infinity Inc to cross that bridge, continuing on from then on on the JLA side.

And Supergirl's history needs some closer examination. You have her debuting in 8. Does she die in the Crisis? Barry did, and somehow he returned; Supergirl could be the same, with her appearance in 2005(?) just before Infinite Crisis being recast as her being restored to life. (I'd tie this into the last couple of story arcs in Peter David's Supergirl: the second to last one had a brief appearance by an “angelic spirit” calling herself Kara, and the final story arc focused on the pre-Crisis Supergirl crash landing in the post-Crisis DCU before Linda ended up having to send her home. Perhaps have the Twilight/Matrix character that formed with spirit-Kara's assistance visit the time-displaced Kara while Linda is attempting to replace her in the past, and have her create a physical copy of Kara that the “spirit Kara” can inhabit — though she ends up with amnesia when she does so. That's what Superman and Batman find in a Kryptonite meteorite shortly thereafter.

[Dataweaver]

Yup, those Robins do prove to be a problem. Especially if you want to give DC's various eras the breathing room they "should" have in the fictional history. Nobody actually wants Dick's tenure as Robin squeezed into a single year, but giving him (and Tim, etc) their proper due stretches out the timeline by a lot. Hell, Damian alone adds what, three or four years?

It's almost doable; the main nips and tucks you have to make are to slide Damian's birth further back to a point before Dick left for college, and to retcon Damian's age when he was introduced in Morrison's run to 12 instead of 10. That, and ignore the implication in JSA#1 that “13 years ago” is Batman Year One, and just treat it as a Catwoman story that happened several years later. The only real problem with this is that it squeezes Dick's departure to college into the later part of the Bronze Age: instead of happening in the publishing year of 1970, it might have to be pushed forward to as late as the formation of the New Teen Titans in the publishing year of 1980; that is, the Dick is Robin while he's going to college” stories get lost.

But to be fair, that's not new: for both Dick and Barbara, the bulk of their Bronze Age adventures (Dick in college; Barbara as a Senator) have been out of continuity since the Crisis; and not even Morrison saw fit to bring them back when he implemented his “everything in Batman's history happened” post-IC retcon.

Jon's a problem, yeah. I don't like the idea of the Kents being "missing" for a decade, outside of time. It just seems unnecessary to jump through those hoops when we have to ensure Bruce is old enough to have Damian anyway. I know that's how Convergence played out, but given the wonky nature of that event we shouldn't feel beholden to it.

It's not so much that I think that we should be beholden to it as it is that sticking to the original time traveling weirdness of it actually solves a number of problems: while we need to make room for Damian's birth on the timeline, Morrison has at least allowed us to place that event in the early Bronze Age; if we attempt to do something similar with Jon, we end up either pushing the wedding of Lois and Clark to before the Crisis on Infinite Earths — which is only doable, as I see it, if you don't insist that it happened after the Death of Superman and the Reign of the Supermen, as that places most of the 90s era of Superman stories before CoIE.

And besides: restoring something resembling the pre-Superman Reborn history provides a “world of New 52” hook for the writers to use, should they decide to: in the original history, Lois, Clark, and Jon spent a decade there, with the last bit (from Rebirth to Reborn) involving Clark temporarily replacing that world's Superman. Which means that if we ever do a crossover with that world in the future, Clark and Jon would already be familiar with it.

Steve Trevor is another issue. People love the idea of Diana being immortal and having been around since the JSA, but if you do that then Steve is old and (probably) dead now, which screws up a lot of pre-Crisis and New52 history and removes Diana's most well known love interest. Personally, I think the answer there is that after years of helping Diana, the gods reward Steve with immortality. No powers, no strength or durability, he can still die if hurt, he just doesn't age. That's another imperfect solution but it's fairly straightforward and you can bend the published history around it to create a relatively stable timeline.

Plus, that slides Steve closer to the Captain America mold, and I've long thought the solution to making Steve Trevor fun, interesting, and a worthy love interest for Diana was to make him a powerless Steve Rogers.

Crisis on Infinite Earths ended with the Olympians offering Steve and Diana a home in their realm. While Wonder Woman doesn't need a time skip, being herself immortal, there's no harm in including one that's handed to you on a silver platter. Wonder Woman's 21st century debut, then, becomes a return of her and Steve Trevor from Olympus.

There are two catches with this idea: first, Steve's return would have political implications when he tries to reintegrate himself into the modern world — similar in many ways to that other Steve over in Marvel Comics. But second, if Steve and Diana were married before they left for Olympus, they'd still be married now. And conversely, if we don't want them to be married in the present, then we have to retroactively annul their marriage before the Crisis. I don't have much of a problem doing that, mind you; although that might cause some problems down the road if Lyta Trevor is ever referenced again. Is she Diana's daughter or Helena Kosmatos's daughter? Were her parents married, or was she born out of wedlock? Was she raised by Steve and Diana, or by Derek and Joan Trevor? There's a lot more wiggle room to work with here than you might think, considering that Diana was raised by the Amazons and they have their own views on matters involving sex, marriage, and child rearing; so the idea that Diana had a daughter out of wedlock and then handed her over to a worthy family (Derek and Joan) to raise her isn't entirely unreasonable. But it has a few ugly implications about Diana in particular and Thymescrian culture in general.

Finally, this this effectively reboots Wonder Woman again, I'd want to take this opportunity to restore Thymescrian technology into the mix: borrow heavily from Morrison's Earth One: Wonder Woman, with “Purple Ray” medical technology, invisible aircraft (though not airplanes or jets), “magic mirrors” or the like that allow for remote communication, and so on. With this, you could even retcon the aforementioned “Diana and Steve retreat to Olympus” as “Diana and Steve return to Thymescria”, with the purple ray technology gradually rejuvenating Steve stop that he's young again when he arrives at the start of the modern age of heroes.

[Dataweaver]

I don't think there's any way to make the Young Justice kids make sense at their current ages. They simply can't still be 16-18. Unless you say they were trapped in some kind of timeless limbo for several years anyway, but DC ignoring them is not a good in-universe excuse for limbo.

In this, I say it's DC who have made a mistake; we shouldn't try to follow their lead here. YJ should be older than DC treats them.

To be fair, Bendis had Conner trapped on Gemworld, and Bart somehow got stuck in the Speed Force by Flashpoint and wasn't released until the end of the Flash War; and both of them had undergone de-aging back-from-the-dead returns shortly before Flashpoint; so I have no problem with the two of them being physically younger. The problem is Tim and Cassie, both of whom lived through the time from Flashpoint to Rebirth; and Tim somehow managed to de-age in that window. Officially, the argument is that Dr. Manhattan stole a decade of time, de-aging everyone to varying degrees; and Doomsday Clock didn't put all of that time back.

But yeah; I'm on board with saying that Young Justice is in their early 20s now.

Why the memory wipe?

And no, I don't think DC has done...well, anything really, with Diana being around in the Golden Age. Certainly nothing with Steve that I'm aware of. Though I did drop her book a while ago before the current creators came in, so I may have missed something?

I think the memory wipe would be primarily to keep Steve mentally young, rather than being a centennial mind in a thirty-year-old body. I don't think it's strictly necessary, though.

Oh, another issue is Barry and Iris. Did Iris die? Did they get married and retire in the Legion's future before Barry died in the Crisis? There's a number of wrinkles in the Flash history that don't really make any sense now.

Pre-Crisis, Iris died; and then was resurrected in the 30th century, leading to Barry joining her there. Nothing new is needed to resolve that.

@Gero: That timeline looks pretty good. Runs a little longer than I think we need, I'd trim it down to twenty years or so, but COIE hitting roughly around year ten feels properly epic and correct, and seems like a good benchmark for working other things into the timeline.

Seconded. Mind you, it doesn't address any of the New Golden Age stuff about the JSA having 20th century history; but it does nicely encapsulate much of the 21st century “sliding timeline”. As you say, it does run a little long: it's far too easy to end up with the YJ crew being in their late 20s/early 30s; and for now at least, that should be avoided. But shorten it by about five years, and you should be fine.

[Ascended]

It's almost doable; the main nips and tucks you have to make are to slide Damian's birth further back to a point before Dick left for college, and to retcon Damian's age when he was introduced in Morrison's run to 12 instead of 10.

Conversely, we could say he's still twelve instead of fourteen. Haven't considered the implications that might have though.

That, and ignore the implication in JSA#1 that “13 years ago” is Batman Year One, and just treat it as a Catwoman story that happened several years later.

Goes without saying.

The only real problem with this is that it squeezes Dick's departure to college into the later part of the Bronze Age: instead of happening in the publishing year of 1970, it might have to be pushed forward to as late as the formation of the New Teen Titans in the publishing year of 1980; that is, the Dick is Robin while he's going to college” stories get lost.

I think you can squish it in there, but it'd definitely only be "roughly" where it should be and wouldn't quite line up the way the publishing unfolded. I think you can get close though, close enough it makes no real difference.

Babs' time as a senator is basically impossible to include. You've gotta be 25 to join the House, 30 to join the Senate. Even if we go back to the idea of Babs being several years older than Dick, it still wouldn't fit. I'd suggest what DC is already doing; ignore it. You could say that Babs was a volunteer or intern for a senator so "a" version of real history plays out but it doesn't seem worth the hassle unless a story directly requires the reference. I would support her going back into politics though, and DC treating it like a new career move.

It's not so much that I think that we should be beholden to it as it is that sticking to the original time traveling weirdness of it actually solves a number of problems

It does, but it's still a double edged sword that creates its own issues. I dunno, I've seen a lot of people say the same thing you are, that this is the way to handle Jon. Perhaps I'm in the wrong here.

Crisis on Infinite Earths ended with the Olympians offering Steve and Diana a home in their realm. While Wonder Woman doesn't need a time skip, being herself immortal, there's no harm in including one that's handed to you on a silver platter. Wonder Woman's 21st century debut, then, becomes a return of her and Steve Trevor from Olympus.

I personally see plenty of potential in the idea. People complain about how boring and dull Steve is but come on, the guy is clearly DC Steve Rogers even without this longevity thing, how can you *not* make him interesting?

Mild tangent but I'm also of the opinion/head canon that the Golden Age heroes were never public figures back in their day. They were local legends and urban myths, and those who knew the truth (like Roosevelt when he recruits them to the War) kept their mouths shut about it. World at large never learned that superhumans actually walk the earth. That way Superman's debut still has the paradigm shifting impact it's supposed to, but the Golden Age history can remain intact (such as it is).

There are two catches with this idea: first, Steve's return would have political implications when he tries to reintegrate himself into the modern world — similar in many ways to that other Steve over in Marvel Comics.

That's the smell of opportunity. Though Diana and Steve's return would've been at least a decade ago now (to line up with Clark/Bruce's debut) that he'd be as modernized as he's gonna get. And I'm sure he could've keep track of current events from Themyscria or Olympus or wherever they retire so the modern world wouldn't be *as* shocking to him.

But second, if Steve and Diana were married before they left for Olympus, they'd still be married now. And conversely, if we don't want them to be married in the present, then we have to retroactively annul their marriage before the Crisis. I don't have much of a problem doing that, mind you; although that might cause some problems down the road if Lyta Trevor is ever referenced again

If you're gonna keep the pre-Crisis history then you gotta keep those big keystone life moments, I think. The marriage should stand, in some fashion, and Diana's dating life has been a train wreck since post-Crisis so we're not losing anything. As for how you deal with it, I think I'm too shaky on the history to have a viable opinion. Lyta, at this point I'd say she should just be left on the editing room floor, it's been so long since anyone used her. But if one were determined, I'm sure her inclusion could be ironed out somehow.

Donna would be a bigger issue, I think. Figure, she only works at all if you lean into how broken she is and make "distorted reality" part of her story. Make the fact that it doesn't make sense a part of her actual narrative.

Finally, this this effectively reboots Wonder Woman again, I'd want to take this opportunity to restore Thymescrian technology into the mix

Damn straight, as long as it doesn't look like advanced real world tech. I don't want sci-fi rifles and helicopters and missiles. Morrison's earth-1 OGN really did do a solid job of developing Amazon tech.

Oh, and bring back the kanga!