Will You Miss Henry Cavil As Superman?

[manwhohaseverything]

One thing i won't miss is the vitriolic debate between snyder fans and anti snyder crowd..i hope this is the end of that.

[manofsteel1979]

One thing i won't miss is the vitriolic debate between snyder fans and anti snyder crowd..i hope this is the end of that.

Sadly I don't think it will quiet down anytime soon. Especially in light of Henry's return/not return. I'm already seeing the hard core Snyderverse fans on reddit and other places starting to attack Gunn.

The only way the Snyder hard core trolls will be forced to shut up and move on is once Gunn's films start to come out and become successful...and in the case of Superman, his first film out of the gate will not only have to be successful in respect to its budget to profit ratio, it will have to at least make 700 million or more to outgross MOS. Even if Gunn's Superman movie ends up more profitable in relation to budget, if It doesn't hit the 700 mill plus , the Snyder fans will be crowing and call it a failure.

That is assuming Gunn's film is lower in budget , like sub $150 million. If the budget ends up being 200 million , it's going to have to do a billion minimum. That's frankly a tall order.

[Vordan]

The poll being 50/50 as of this post is exactly why moving on from Cavill is the right call. He’s not the universally beloved figure people want him to be. Least he has his 40k shows over at Amazon, I’m more excited for those than I ever was for MoS2.

[manofsteel1979]

The poll being 50/50 as of this post is exactly why moving on from Cavill is the right call. He’s not the universally beloved figure people want him to be. Least he has his 40k shows over at Amazon, I’m more excited for those than I ever was for MoS2.

Honestly we won't know if it is the right call until Gunn's Superman movie (most likely the first movie of the slate) has come out and been judged by critics and audiences.

If its a run away smash hit that critics and audiences can agree on and puts Superman as a cinematic character back on the map, then of course it will have been a great call.

However if we end up with something that has a mixed reception, or it's something that divides the Fandom in some way or underperforms to expectations...or even ends up doing similar numbers to MOS, then that's a whole different discussion.

I hope Gunn and Warners and even the Fandom can temper their expectations a bit. The assumption I'm seeing is that Superman movies should be making a billion plus in their sleep due to how well known Superman as a character is, and anything less is somehow a failure. As a Superman fan, I hurts me to say this, but the character has been so badly handled for much of the last 35-40 years in comics and on the big screen , it's going to take more than a decent movie to turn Superman's fortunes around and to expect this one to hit those numbers and single-handedly reverse three decades of virtual neglect by Warners is frankly an almost impossible metric to judge this next film by. Hopefully the budget is kept down so it will be easier to turn a healthy profit.

[Riv86672]

Although in Affleck’s case it was his choice to leave. The right one though given his state at the time.

I do think though Affleck’s exit is a large reason why we are where we are. Had he stayed I think things would have turned out a bit differently. If Affleck’ was still Batman and still enthusiastic about sticking around it would be much much harder to replace the rest of the actors in the pantheon and doing a hard reboot.

^^^Interesting.
I hadn’t considered the ripple effect!

Maybe if he’d been given the opportunity do Star in his own series of movies, he might’ve worked through his issues to pursue the project(s)?

[JBatmanFan05]

Honestly we won't know if it is the right call until Gunn's Superman movie (most likely the first movie of the slate) has come out and been judged by critics and audiences.

If its a run away smash hit that critics and audiences can agree on and puts Superman as a cinematic character back on the map, then of course it will have been a great call.

However if we end up with something that has a mixed reception, or it's something that divides the Fandom in some way or underperforms to expectations...or even ends up doing similar numbers to MOS, then that's a whole different discussion.

So very true. That's why I did not vote in the poll (even though I know I could have since it's only "miss" question, but I don't have any strong opinions on Cavill as Superman since so much his time was shaped by the directors).

[Doctor Know]

The poll being 50/50 as of this post is exactly why moving on from Cavill is the right call. He’s not the universally beloved figure people want him to be. Least he has his 40k shows over at Amazon, I’m more excited for those than I ever was for MoS2.

It could be a number of factors though. MOS will be 10 years old come June 2023. Cavil was in the role for 9 years and only did 3 movies. The last of which was in 2017. I'll miss Cavil, but I feel it's time to move own as well. Warners certainly pissed theirs and everyone else's time away by not moving on MOS 2 sooner.

Honestly we won't know if it is the right call until Gunn's Superman movie (most likely the first movie of the slate) has come out and been judged by critics and audiences.

If its a run away smash hit that critics and audiences can agree on and puts Superman as a cinematic character back on the map, then of course it will have been a great call.

However if we end up with something that has a mixed reception, or it's something that divides the Fandom in some way or underperforms to expectations...or even ends up doing similar numbers to MOS, then that's a whole different discussion.

I hope Gunn and Warners and even the Fandom can temper their expectations a bit. The assumption I'm seeing is that Superman movies should be making a billion plus in their sleep due to how well known Superman as a character is, and anything less is somehow a failure. As a Superman fan, I hurts me to say this, but the character has been so badly handled for much of the last 35-40 years in comics and on the big screen , it's going to take more than a decent movie to turn Superman's fortunes around and to expect this one to hit those numbers and single-handedly reverse three decades of virtual neglect by Warners is frankly an almost impossible metric to judge this next film by. Hopefully the budget is kept down so it will be easier to turn a healthy profit.

I expect we'll see something akin to Reeves' The Batman and the MCU Spider-Man movie for the next Superman flick. Down to Earth, year two story. With a Clark who is just learning to be a hero but has to balance that with his job and social life.
Not a bad plan, but WB and Super supporters are expecting a billion dollar gross no doubt.

So very true. That's why I did not vote in the poll (even though I know I could have since it's only "miss" question, but I don't have any strong opinions on Cavill as Superman since so much his time was shaped by the directors).

Cavil was handled by Snyder, Whedon, passed over by Abrams and almost worked with Gunn for his Suicide Squad movie. So much potential wasted. It's funny, because Gunn's Superman vs Suicide Squad movie idea is now being used as the premise for the MCU Thunderbolts movie. Where Hyperion is slated to be the villain.

Never miss a chance to do something awesome, WB.

[Vordan]

Honestly we won't know if it is the right call until Gunn's Superman movie (most likely the first movie of the slate) has come out and been judged by critics and audiences.

If its a run away smash hit that critics and audiences can agree on and puts Superman as a cinematic character back on the map, then of course it will have been a great call.

However if we end up with something that has a mixed reception, or it's something that divides the Fandom in some way or underperforms to expectations...or even ends up doing similar numbers to MOS, then that's a whole different discussion.

I hope Gunn and Warners and even the Fandom can temper their expectations a bit. The assumption I'm seeing is that Superman movies should be making a billion plus in their sleep due to how well known Superman as a character is, and anything less is somehow a failure. As a Superman fan, I hurts me to say this, but the character has been so badly handled for much of the last 35-40 years in comics and on the big screen , it's going to take more than a decent movie to turn Superman's fortunes around and to expect this one to hit those numbers and single-handedly reverse three decades of virtual neglect by Warners is frankly an almost impossible metric to judge this next film by. Hopefully the budget is kept down so it will be easier to turn a healthy profit.

1 billion off the bat is delusional, I agree. That’s why the budget should not go higher than what the first Aquaman or WW DCEU films got. A budget of $100 million would make something like $700-800 million a success which feels feasible assuming of course that Gunn’s take gets good reviews.

[manofsteel1979]

^^^Interesting.
I hadn’t considered the ripple effect!

Maybe if he’d been given the opportunity do Star in his own series of movies, he might’ve worked through his issues to pursue the project(s)?

He was offered his own series . In fact he was supposed to write AND direct The Batman. He even finished the script and it was in preproduction when Affleck decided to bail. Partially because the bad taste left over from his dealings with Wheadon on the reshuffle on Justice League and his own personal demons taking him over. Apparently his pal Matt Damon told Ben that being Batman was going to kill him and he urged him to leave. The stress was too much for him.

[bat39]

Yeah I'm weirdly more sad for Gadot. We've had six movie Batmen and three movie Supermen....but only one movie Wonder Woman.

I know WW84 wasn't so great, but I really did want to see one more film with her in the role before moving on.


The Cavill thing hurts because of the cruelty of literally giving the role back to him and then basically going "SIKE" and taking it away. But it feels like Gadot and Momoa are going to have to lose those roles for the sake of the future of the reboot of the DCU and it royally sucks.

Maybe, after the smoke clears and their first handful of hopefully successful movies are out and the new universe is established ,Gunn and Safran can properly do a sort of DC BLACK LABEL imprint to allow Gadot and perhaps Cavill and the stuff that doesn't fit into the new plan they clearly have to have an outlet where say, Patty Jenkins can give Gal's Diana a great send off and Cavill could team with the Director of his choice to give him a chance to give his illeration of Superman a dignified stand alone send off.

If they are still considering doing the Abrams/Coates project that is unlikely to be anything beyond a stand alone outlier and Oscar bait, why not give the first cinematic Wonder Woman a proper send of and the actor who arguably got screwed the most a chance to do a Superman film he can be proud Of? I mean there is probably going to be a separate Batman universe all to itself and a separate DCU Batman hanging around. There's already a separate JOKER franchise. Why can't there be a separate little space for Gal and Henry?

Hell at this point I'd be ok with a Superman/Wonder Woman team up film made for the shippers of those two characters, and we all know how I feel about that whole SuperWonder thing! LOL

Yeah, if they're going to be doing a lot of ''out-of-continuity'' movies going forward, then it'll be if a shame if Cavill's Superman and Gadot's Wonder Woman don't get one last hurrah somewhere.

The poll being 50/50 as of this post is exactly why moving on from Cavill is the right call. He’s not the universally beloved figure people want him to be. Least he has his 40k shows over at Amazon, I’m more excited for those than I ever was for MoS2.

Cavill getting 50% of the vote among this community is pretty impressive for him, considering that this forum tends to lean towards the anti-Snyderverse/anti-MOS end of the spectrum on the whole. I'm sure if there was a way of polling the online fandom as a whole, and even casual audiences, Cavill might fare a lot better.

[JAK]

The poll being 50/50 as of this post is exactly why moving on from Cavill is the right call. He’s not the universally beloved figure people want him to be. Least he has his 40k shows over at Amazon, I’m more excited for those than I ever was for MoS2.

Eh... I don't know. I think a lot of it has to do with folks having a hard time separating his potential with how he was used in the previous movies - they'd have to see it happen to know it *can*. I can understand that mindset, though, after all the crap that Superman has been pushed through over the years. And the fact that I hated the Snyder movies but still voted "yes" overall should say something.

All that having been said, starting fresh may end up being a good thing - but they can't flub any more landings on these things.

Honestly we won't know if it is the right call until Gunn's Superman movie (most likely the first movie of the slate) has come out and been judged by critics and audiences.

If its a run away smash hit that critics and audiences can agree on and puts Superman as a cinematic character back on the map, then of course it will have been a great call.

However if we end up with something that has a mixed reception, or it's something that divides the Fandom in some way or underperforms to expectations...or even ends up doing similar numbers to MOS, then that's a whole different discussion.

I hope Gunn and Warners and even the Fandom can temper their expectations a bit. The assumption I'm seeing is that Superman movies should be making a billion plus in their sleep due to how well known Superman as a character is, and anything less is somehow a failure. As a Superman fan, I hurts me to say this, but the character has been so badly handled for much of the last 35-40 years in comics and on the big screen , it's going to take more than a decent movie to turn Superman's fortunes around and to expect this one to hit those numbers and single-handedly reverse three decades of virtual neglect by Warners is frankly an almost impossible metric to judge this next film by. Hopefully the budget is kept down so it will be easier to turn a healthy profit.

That's my thinking, as well. We all can't look at decades of mismanagement and expect a breakaway $1B movie. If that happens, it will be - should be - a happy surprise. As I've said before: look at "Batman Begins" and how that did vs "The Dark Knight." The expectations we're seeing now, TDK would never have been made because BB didn't hit insane numbers. Trust and emotional investment in a new version of any given franchise don't happen immediately; they have to be cultivated. And one fear I have is that while scrapping everything (as much as I hate the Snyderverse timeline) seems like the right move, screwing up the do-over will have (imo) a decades-long chilling effect at WB. Especially with those insane expectations.

If it was me, I'd have kept pockets of the DCEU for HBO Max or small-release, making them their own standalone universe that gets love once in awhile (at a smaller budget in exchange for, say, Cavill having creative control) while the new universe gets fleshed out (also smaller budget, but not as small). Then, you ride further on what's working, and sprinkle the rest in as possible. Personally, I'm fine with movies not being so big; some of the smaller ones have been very impressive.

At any rate, Cavill getting creative control on Warhammer (which I'll support even though I have no real interest in the property) is exactly what I'd do after all the crap he's been put through. Good for him!

Cavil was handled by Snyder, Whedon, passed over by Abrams and almost worked with Gunn for his Suicide Squad movie. So much potential wasted. It's funny, because Gunn's Superman vs Suicide Squad movie idea is now being used as the premise for the MCU Thunderbolts movie. Where Hyperion is slated to be the villain.

Never miss a chance to do something awesome, WB.

LOL, right? Doesn't seem to matter who's managing WB, it's the same "10 years behind" crap over and over. "A day late and a dollar short" should be the company motto.

[Holt]

I will miss the potential he had, but unfortunately, his movies never clicked for me. That's not his fault and I've always maintained he could've been spectacular with the right script and direction, but it is what it is. I was ready to move on like 3 years ago when it was already clear he likely wasn't coming back.

[Jeffrey2]

Honestly we won't know if it is the right call until Gunn's Superman movie (most likely the first movie of the slate) has come out and been judged by critics and audiences.

If its a run away smash hit that critics and audiences can agree on and puts Superman as a cinematic character back on the map, then of course it will have been a great call.

However if we end up with something that has a mixed reception, or it's something that divides the Fandom in some way or underperforms to expectations...or even ends up doing similar numbers to MOS, then that's a whole different discussion.

I hope Gunn and Warners and even the Fandom can temper their expectations a bit. The assumption I'm seeing is that Superman movies should be making a billion plus in their sleep due to how well known Superman as a character is, and anything less is somehow a failure. As a Superman fan, I hurts me to say this, but the character has been so badly handled for much of the last 35-40 years in comics and on the big screen , it's going to take more than a decent movie to turn Superman's fortunes around and to expect this one to hit those numbers and single-handedly reverse three decades of virtual neglect by Warners is frankly an almost impossible metric to judge this next film by. Hopefully the budget is kept down so it will be easier to turn a healthy profit.

WBD has to know that Superman is not a popular character today even though he is one of the most well-known characters. How many Superman costumes do you see at Halloween? If WBD expects a billion, then they are making the same mistake WB did with MOS. Practically this means the budget must be held down. 150 million or so. About what WW cost. That too drives a less FX-heavy film which is fine and especially if the villain is Earth-bound.

WBD takes audience polls as do all studios. I imagine polls were taken to gauge the reaction to Cavill's BA appearance and perhaps they were middling. As much because the general audience does not really care about Superman as about Cavill himself. Maybe that drove in part the decision to recast the role.

[manofsteel1979]

Eh... I don't know. I think a lot of it has to do with folks having a hard time separating his potential with how he was used in the previous movies - they'd have to see it happen to know it *can*. I can understand that mindset, though, after all the crap that Superman has been pushed through over the years. And the fact that I hated the Snyder movies but still voted "yes" overall should say something.

All that having been said, starting fresh may end up being a good thing - but they can't flub any more landings on these things.



That's my thinking, as well. We all can't look at decades of mismanagement and expect a breakaway $1B movie. If that happens, it will be - should be - a happy surprise. As I've said before: look at "Batman Begins" and how that did vs "The Dark Knight." The expectations we're seeing now, TDK would never have been made because BB didn't hit insane numbers. Trust and emotional investment in a new version of any given franchise don't happen immediately; they have to be cultivated. And one fear I have is that while scrapping everything (as much as I hate the Snyderverse timeline) seems like the right move, screwing up the do-over will have (imo) a decades-long chilling effect at WB. Especially with those insane expectations.

If it was me, I'd have kept pockets of the DCEU for HBO Max or small-release, making them their own standalone universe that gets love once in awhile (at a smaller budget in exchange for, say, Cavill having creative control) while the new universe gets fleshed out (also smaller budget, but not as small). Then, you ride further on what's working, and sprinkle the rest in as possible. Personally, I'm fine with movies not being so big; some of the smaller ones have been very impressive.

At any rate, Cavill getting creative control on Warhammer (which I'll support even though I have no real interest in the property) is exactly what I'd do after all the crap he's been put through. Good for him!



LOL, right? Doesn't seem to matter who's managing WB, it's the same "10 years behind" crap over and over. "A day late and a dollar short" should be the company motto.

Which is why I am kinda questioning if trying to do a tightly interconnected DCU as a rival or answer to Marvel is even feasible or truly needed at this point. No matter how good the slate of movies Gunn has planned, DC is going to always be seen as the wanna be. The red headed step child.DC is never going to be able to beat Marvel at its own game. That ship has sailed long before even Snyder's involvement. Warners could have done the cinematic universe thing years ago, but all they wanted to do was Batman movies with the occasional Superman project thrown in.

That doesn't mean DC shouldn't make movies out of their properties, nor should they abandon any attempt to crossover franchises or do big events every few years. But a tightly connected cinematic universe done in "Phases" where every movie is a part of a long saga culminating in a big event movie...I don't think it's necessarily the model DC should follow. Time will tell, but frankly I'd be more excited for DC Studios future if they'd focus on making the best Superman movies they can, or making the best Wonder Woman films they can or Teen Titans etc. And via the multiverse angle, if it makes sense do crossovers.

If I were Zazlav, Gunn and Safran, instead of worrying about telling some intricate cross platform story spanning 10 years, I'd focus on just telling quality stories with these characters in live action with varying tones and such instead of trying to make everything fit some preconceived mould. At this point I could care less about Superman and Batman having another team up movie. I just want a good Superman movie and a Superman universe to build.

If we eventually get another team up movie...great. but let's spend some time reestablishing Superman first.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Which is why I am kinda questioning if trying to do a tightly interconnected DCU as a rival or answer to Marvel is even feasible or truly needed at this point. No matter how good the slate of movies Gunn has planned, DC is going to always be seen as the wanna be. The red headed step child.DC is never going to be able to beat Marvel at its own game. That ship has sailed long before even Snyder's involvement. Warners could have done the cinematic universe thing years ago, but all they wanted to do was Batman movies with the occasional Superman project thrown in.

That doesn't mean DC shouldn't make movies out of their properties, nor should they abandon any attempt to crossover franchises or do big events every few years. But a tightly connected cinematic universe done in "Phases" where every movie is a part of a long saga culminating in a big event movie...I don't think it's necessarily the model DC should follow. Time will tell, but frankly I'd be more excited for DC Studios future if they'd focus on making the best Superman movies they can, or making the best Wonder Woman films they can or Teen Titans etc. And via the multiverse angle, if it makes sense do crossovers.

If I were Zazlav, Gunn and Safran, instead of worrying about telling some intricate cross platform story spanning 10 years, I'd focus on just telling quality stories with these characters in live action with varying tones and such instead of trying to make everything fit some preconceived mould. At this point I could care less about Superman and Batman having another team up movie. I just want a good Superman movie and a Superman universe to build.

If we eventually get another team up movie...great. but let's spend some time reestablishing Superman first.

How they can believe a 10 years plan can work with all the changes of leadership and direction that keep happening at WB?

Snyder started with BvS (2016) the shared universe and his Knightmare/Darkseid storyline that was supposed to culminate in JL2/3 in 2019/2020. It got changed and later aborted.

Hamada planned to start a multiversal storyline with the upcoming The Flash culminating in a Crisis event down the line. All dead before it even began.

Not counting all the secondary storylines that went nowhere.

Should we expect the Gunn/Safran team will not meet a similar fate?