Will You Miss Henry Cavil As Superman?

[magha_regulus]

The situation sucks for sure, but I think it's probably for the best. Warner Brothers' management is really to blame; even more so than Snyder's vision and tastes which were also an issue. Wishing Henry Cavil all the best. Time for everyone to move on.

[JAK]

Which is why I am kinda questioning if trying to do a tightly interconnected DCU as a rival or answer to Marvel is even feasible or truly needed at this point. No matter how good the slate of movies Gunn has planned, DC is going to always be seen as the wanna be. The red headed step child.DC is never going to be able to beat Marvel at its own game. That ship has sailed long before even Snyder's involvement. Warners could have done the cinematic universe thing years ago, but all they wanted to do was Batman movies with the occasional Superman project thrown in.

That doesn't mean DC shouldn't make movies out of their properties, nor should they abandon any attempt to crossover franchises or do big events every few years. But a tightly connected cinematic universe done in "Phases" where every movie is a part of a long saga culminating in a big event movie...I don't think it's necessarily the model DC should follow. Time will tell, but frankly I'd be more excited for DC Studios future if they'd focus on making the best Superman movies they can, or making the best Wonder Woman films they can or Teen Titans etc. And via the multiverse angle, if it makes sense do crossovers.

If I were Zazlav, Gunn and Safran, instead of worrying about telling some intricate cross platform story spanning 10 years, I'd focus on just telling quality stories with these characters in live action with varying tones and such instead of trying to make everything fit some preconceived mould. At this point I could care less about Superman and Batman having another team up movie. I just want a good Superman movie and a Superman universe to build.

If we eventually get another team up movie...great. but let's spend some time reestablishing Superman first.

That would be my thinking, too: do a bunch of seemingly disconnected movies, tell people they're all in different universes, and then start having the universes collide. That way it's *like* what Marvel was doing, but coming from a different direction and allowing things to also sit by themselves if someone wants them to. Plus, we can still have 3+ versions of different characters and it's fine.

Keaton can still rock a Bat-suit, and I say let him. Same for Routh, etc. Imagine Keaton and Routh in a "World's Finest" film. And if the CG is Disney+ level, is that really that bad? I enjoyed She Hulk, but maybe a touch better than that. Get people who care about these characters/iterations, give them time and make them comfortable - they could have a huge team of people for a sliver of what they're paying out now.

How they can believe a 10 years plan can work with all the changes of leadership and direction that keep happening at WB?

Snyder started with BvS (2016) the shared universe and his Knightmare/Darkseid storyline that was supposed to culminate in JL2/3 in 2019/2020. It got changed and later aborted.

Hamada planned to start a multiversal storyline with the upcoming The Flash culminating in a Crisis event down the line. All dead before it even began.

Not counting all the secondary storylines that went nowhere.

Should we expect the Gunn/Safran team will not meet a similar fate?

This, too. WB would be better suited in keeping mum about a big plan, just doing movies that will be fine on their own but *could* become more if they get there. WB up to this point has been all cart, no horse.

[manofsteel1979]

That would be my thinking, too: do a bunch of seemingly disconnected movies, tell people they're all in different universes, and then start having the universes collide. That way it's *like* what Marvel was doing, but coming from a different direction and allowing things to also sit by themselves if someone wants them to. Plus, we can still have 3+ versions of different characters and it's fine.

Keaton can still rock a Bat-suit, and I say let him. Same for Routh, etc. Imagine Keaton and Routh in a "World's Finest" film. And if the CG is Disney+ level, is that really that bad? I enjoyed She Hulk, but maybe a touch better than that. Get people who care about these characters/iterations, give them time and make them comfortable - they could have a huge team of people for a sliver of what they're paying out now.



This, too. WB would be better suited in keeping mum about a big plan, just doing movies that will be fine on their own but *could* become more if they get there. WB up to this point has been all cart, no horse.

Yeah. I think all the talk of some 10 year master plan is a bit disingenuous . I mean....what happens if WB gets sold again in the next couple years. It's possible. Even if that's not the case, what happens if Gunn's first few movies do middling numbers? Do they stay the course and hope people catch on
? What happens if Gunn gets fired half way through the set up?

, I'm glad Gunn says Superman is THE priority at the start ....but how can that really be when you are already focused on some theoretical endpoint in a decade? It could be argued that's a huge reason we are where we are. Instead of doing a stand alone Superman trilogy like MOS was initially intended to set up, Warners immediately decided to go all in on "future plans" with a larger scope...and of course it all ultimately went no where.

[Jeffrey2]

IMO Cavill was miscast as Superman. I didn't like MOS and, miscast or not, it was a poor vehicle with which to reintroduce Superman. Cavill was pushed aside in BvsS and dead for more than half of JL. Snyder said in a video that they had to find a way to get rid of Superman in BvsS so that the stage would be set for Batman to found the JL. Snyder had no respect for the character. Neither did/does WB.

Cavill comes off as naive in all of this. After JL you'd think he would have learned his lesson. DeLuca/Abdy and Johnson used Superman/Cavill to try to bolster BA. Zaslav said he wanted a Superman film but never singled out Cavill despite some reports that he said something to someone which was overheard by someone else. John Campea has good WB sources and he kept saying, to his chagrin, Cavill was not a priority for Zaslav. Indeed, if BA had done well and DeLuca/Adby remained in charge with their Brainiac featuring film getting made it's not a given Cavill would have gotten the role.

For Cavill to agree to cameos with only vague verbal promises of him getting a solo was naive as hell. He has handled it all incredibly well in recent days. Well done, Henry. Gunn said he was not part of any of the BA/Johnson/DeLuca stuff. I believe him. I think his saying Cavill could be used in the future within the DCEU was more pleasantry than something which is going to actually happen. Cavill likely wouldn't come back anyway.

Cavill spoke with Marvel over the past year about several roles. This was likely instigated by his agent to put heat on WB to bring him back as Superman. Now? Cavill plays a dark Superman well and casting him as Hyperion would be sweet justice. Marvel could have that film out in 2024 and given the goodwill Marvel films have a Cavill led Hyperion could do 800 or 900 million. If Captain Marvel could do over a billion, why not. If Gunn's Superman project actually gets made 700 million is likely the best it will do. It would be an in your face to WB which they deserve. It would also be great to see Cavill have a mega-hit film

[KC]

Honestly, no. His Superman has always been tainted by Zack Snyder and his version of the DCEU for me and I am ready for a fresh start.

[Prime]

Yes but only because Cavill is a cool dude and WB did him dirty

[Venceremos]

Won't miss him, though I recognize that he could have made a good Superman if the writing and directing had been there. Squandered potential, but I can't long for something that didn't actually exist.

[Jeffrey2]

Some people who want Cavill to continue as Superman qualify that by saying he needs another chance. That better directing would make a difference. But no one knows if a change of director and another chance would turn out any differently. Superman is a risky film to make to begin with. Campea and Bennett debated a while back whether or not audiences want more Superman films. They weren't sure.

Cavill and Adams in another film would've seemed tired/"been there, done that". Their return to the roles could've been a net negative going into the film's release. The reviews for MOS and BvsS weren't kind to Cavill. The scene between Superman and Lois just before he went off to battle Doomsday should have been poignant, a real heartbreaker. It wasn't. Flat and underwhelming, it got less positive reaction than did the scenes between Affleck and Gadot.

Zaslav/WBD can't take chances with the next Superman film. The viability of the franchise isn't a given and Cavill likely wasn't going to be asked back no matter what. Too much of a risk. If Superman is the first film released and does poorly the DC Studios slate takes a hit. Gunn said Superman will be on the slate, but the first film released under Zaslav/Gunn has to be a huge financial/critical success. Given that, my bet is Superman won't be that film. Wonder Woman with a new writer/director has more upside potential. Zaslav/Gunn may surprise. Zaslav is very big on Green Lantern and feels it could be WBD's Star Wars. Gunn is tied to Guardians of the Galaxy. A GL announcement as the first film to be released would garner more excitement than another Superman origin film. GL could do a billion. Superman not so.

A slate will be announced in early 2023 but it's likely only a couple of films will get firm release dates and don't be surprised if Superman is not one of them.

[JAK]

Some people who want Cavill to continue as Superman qualify that by saying he needs another chance. That better directing would make a difference. But no one knows if a change of director and another chance would turn out any differently. Superman is a risky film to make to begin with. Campea and Bennett debated a while back whether or not audiences want more Superman films. They weren't sure.

I have about as much trust in the ideas of anyone at WB as I do of Otis from "Superman: The Movie". What they greenlight and what they don't greenlight doesn't strike me with any sense that they know what they're doing. As for why I think a better director would get better results, I can simply say that seeing Henry and Amy in other roles with better directors and writers tells me everything I need to know. To be fair, it's not just Snyder: it's also Goyer and a whole host of others. Anyone in cinema who thinks "The Bat is dead. Bury it. Consider this mercy." coming out of Superman's mouth makes any sense at all and would land with anything other than a resounding thud should have been fired on sight. And aaaaalllll of those people had more control over the movie than Henry/Amy/etc.

Cavill and Adams in another film would've seemed tired/"been there, done that". Their return to the roles could've been a net negative going into the film's release. The reviews for MOS and BvsS weren't kind to Cavill. The scene between Superman and Lois just before he went off to battle Doomsday should have been poignant, a real heartbreaker. It wasn't. Flat and underwhelming, it got less positive reaction than did the scenes between Affleck and Gadot.

That's a matter of vision. I know it can be hard for people to separate what they've seen on screen with what's very possible, but once you see it, you see it. And yeah, they were flat. Don't forget, Affleck directed a lot of his own scenes - it was in his contract. That and Affleck's writer were the main reasons I bothered to see BvS. If you look at what Snyder got from Gadot vs what Jenkins got from Gadot, I'd say that shows a lot as well. Snyder did get better results on JL than Whedon, but that's not a high bar given the set issues.

Zaslav/WBD can't take chances with the next Superman film. The viability of the franchise isn't a given and Cavill likely wasn't going to be asked back no matter what. Too much of a risk. If Superman is the first film released and does poorly the DC Studios slate takes a hit. Gunn said Superman will be on the slate, but the first film released under Zaslav/Gunn has to be a huge financial/critical success. Given that, my bet is Superman won't be that film. Wonder Woman with a new writer/director has more upside potential. Zaslav/Gunn may surprise. Zaslav is very big on Green Lantern and feels it could be WBD's Star Wars. Gunn is tied to Guardians of the Galaxy. A GL announcement as the first film to be released would garner more excitement than another Superman origin film. GL could do a billion. Superman not so.

Any DC film that does $1B should be considered the exception, not the rule. Those days are a fluke for WB, almost no matter what the property. I do agree that not taking chances with (almost) anything tied to the Snyderverse is what led to the decision to not keep Henry. But it's not a "Henry bad" thing.

A slate will be announced in early 2023 but it's likely only a couple of films will get firm release dates and don't be surprised if Superman is not one of them.

That seems likely, yeah.

[Triniking1234]

We only got one solo movie and a bunch of cameos and team-ups. I'll probably miss the guy from Superman and Lois more when his time is up.

[Jeffrey2]

Any DC film that does $1B should be considered the exception, not the rule. Those days are a fluke for WB, almost no matter what the property. I do agree that not taking chances with (almost) anything tied to the Snyderverse is what led to the decision to not keep Henry. But it's not a "Henry bad" thing.

Joker and Aquaman did a billion. The Batman would have done a lot more, though not a billion, if it had been released post-pandemic. Wonder Woman is set to do a billion in her 3rd film. Without Jenkins of course. I think Gal will stay on as WW. Especially as one of her Flash scenes will remain per reports. The scene cut is where she interacts with Cavill so that makes sense.

It seems Mamoa is being kept on board but as Lobo. Gunn said they'd do franchises for lesser-known characters, so a Lobo franchise seems likely. Shifting Mamoa there causes a reset (as in lowering) of his salary. Aquaman is a billion-dollar franchise so Aquaman 3 likely will be on the slate announced next year with a new less expensive actor.

As to the slate, my guess is only a couple of films get put into production. The remainder of the slate, including a Superman film, will be in phase 2. Coming out in the late 20s. Don't forget Zaslav reportedly wants to sell WB. He can't do that until 2024 per the WBD merger. In the meantime, the idea is to cut expenses as much as possible. WBD reportedly has to take an 800 million write-off. If you are selling the studio you don't want to have a bunch of high paid actors locked into lucrative contracts. So, keep the number of films in production in 2024 to a minimum. The others, including Superman, can be in pre-production and a buyer would not be committed to going forward with those films. It makes WB more appealing to a buyer (likely Comcast) to come in and pretty much start from scratch. Too, Gunn's contract is up in 2026 so likely he would not survive a sale of WB to another company.

[JAK]

Joker and Aquaman did a billion. The Batman would have done a lot more, though not a billion, if it had been released post-pandemic. Wonder Woman is set to do a billion in her 3rd film. Without Jenkins of course. I think Gal will stay on as WW. Especially as one of her Flash scenes will remain per reports. The scene cut is where she interacts with Cavill so that makes sense.

They did do $1B, but Joker captured the cultural zeitgeist and wasn't part of the connected universe, and Aquaman was pushed as a feel-good fun time amid a dour universe, so it had contrast on it's side. After WW84, I'm not sure about WW3 doing those numbers. And some of these numbers depend on China (over 10% of WW's 800m+ was China) - if China becomes closed off as a market, 1B is a taller order. I like Gadot, and would love to see them keep her, but it depends on where the scene is in the Flash movie. Something tells me it's from "before" whereas (if reports/rumors I saw are correct) that the scene with Gal and Henry was toward the end? That would also fit with everything. Though at this point, why they're worrying about that when Ezra is likely gone after this is baffling, lol.

I'd agree on Batman doing better if it'd released later, but I don't see $1B. The sequel might, though (because it's build on a fairly solid foundation, which is key).

It seems Mamoa is being kept on board but as Lobo. Gunn said they'd do franchises for lesser-known characters, so a Lobo franchise seems likely. Shifting Mamoa there causes a reset (as in lowering) of his salary. Aquaman is a billion-dollar franchise so Aquaman 3 likely will be on the slate announced next year with a new less expensive actor.

Yeah, Jason was born to play Lobo. As for Aquaman being a billion dollar franchise... maybe. It's a very different world than when Aquaman 1 came out (and almost 25% of Aquaman was China).

As to the slate, my guess is only a couple of films get put into production. The remainder of the slate, including a Superman film, will be in phase 2. Coming out in the late 20s. Don't forget Zaslav reportedly wants to sell WB. He can't do that until 2024 per the WBD merger. In the meantime, the idea is to cut expenses as much as possible. WBD reportedly has to take an 800 million write-off. If you are selling the studio you don't want to have a bunch of high paid actors locked into lucrative contracts. So, keep the number of films in production in 2024 to a minimum. The others, including Superman, can be in pre-production and a buyer would not be committed to going forward with those films. It makes WB more appealing to a buyer (likely Comcast) to come in and pretty much start from scratch. Too, Gunn's contract is up in 2026 so likely he would not survive a sale of WB to another company.

I said this in a different way in the other thread, but it's insane how messed up WB is at this point. Decades of mismanagement and short-sightedness have cost them, dearly. So I think the 1B expectation needs to go out the window if WB expects to not be broke and busted in the next years. They can hope for 1B, but shouldn't expect it anymore.

[Stanlos]

No, it was NEVER and WILL NEVER be about Cavill or any other thesp. It's about effin SUPERMAN

[The Frog Bros]

No, it was NEVER and WILL NEVER be about Cavill or any other thesp. It's about effin SUPERMAN

I think Chris Reeve once said something along the lines of, "the character will always be more important than the actor."

[exile001]

No, it was NEVER and WILL NEVER be about Cavill or any other thesp. It's about effin SUPERMAN

Huh? For a live action adaptation Superman has to be played by SOMEONE. The question is simply whether or not you'll miss Cavill as that someone.

Or are you more concerned that this question and DC's recent treatment of Cavill might negatively affect future instalments?

I'm pretty sure, as with a lot of recastings, once they're announced the majority will just start getting excited for the new person.