Legion of Super-Heroes Appreciation 2023

[Dataweaver]

Honestly, I’m starting to think it might be wise to use the flexibility of time travel to canonically switch between different “possible” Legions, with particular Legions tied to particular Superman family members - like of Kal is attached to a more Silver Age Legion, Kon to a DnA type with XS in its roster, Supergirl to a Brainiac 5-focused Threeboot style, etc. Just have different Legion runs introducing which ones they are… and then inevitable have them become aware of each other as well.

Might even give Time Trapper a better reason to do his stuff.

Personally, I'd be more inclined to have the Legion embrace the vaguerities of Hypertime: there's one Legion in Earth 0's future; but because Hypertime allows timelines to split off and merge back in, that Legion has ties to seemingly incompatible versions of the Superman mythos. That is, instead of having multiple competing future Legions, present it as one consistent future Legion that's aware of multiple competing histories. There's a more or less consistent overall story that the Legion is aware of; but the specifics are fuzzy.

[kcekada]

Personally, I'd be more inclined to have the Legion embrace the vaguerities of Hypertime: there's one Legion in Death 0's future; but because Hypertime allows timelines to split off and merge back in, that Legion has ties to seemingly incompatible versions of the Superman mythos
. That is, instead of having multiple competing future Legions, present it as one consistent future Legion that's aware of multiple competing histories. There's a more or less consistent overall story that the Legion is aware of; but the specifics are fuzzy.

I was thinking of a similar concept for a Legion companion book which would be Legion of Infinite Heroes. Each mission would assemble a variety of members from different versions of the Legion. So all of the Legions would be aware of the other versions that exist. But I think you're suggesting a more fluid single Legion -- where the history and membership varies. Hmmm.

[kcekada]

I won't make myself popular by saying this, but I think Dave and Mike's inexperience shows in their early work. It's just that they had so much enthusiasm for the Legion and that came through on the page. That's what I responded to when I was buying those comics in the 1970s.

And I would gladly settle for lesser artwork, so long as it meant a steady output of material. I think the writer is much more important because there's a lot of world building in the Legion and you need a writer who can plan out that world and keep everything on track. If the artist has some ideas to contribute--so much the better.

Grell's style improved a great deal after Legion -- especially by the time of Green Arrow: Longbow Hunter. I can kinda see some inexperience in Dave's early work -- but he was pretty polished right out of the gate. Coipel's art, however, was very rough in comparison to everyone else mentioned above.

I don't want to downplay the importance of writing. There have been many great-looking books with bad writing that didn't last. But without great artwork, books do 'okay'. It really takes a mesh of both good writing and good artwork to make a book a standout. That's why Legion ebbed and flowed in its original existence.

[Sutekh]

I won't make myself popular by saying this, but I think Dave and Mike's inexperience shows in their early work. It's just that they had so much enthusiasm for the Legion and that came through on the page. That's what I responded to when I was buying those comics in the 1970s.

I am a huge art snob, and have been known to buy utter trash if it's drawn by Mike Turner or Jim Lee or John Byrne, and yet I have a weird affection for Dave Cockrum that's all out of proportion to my love for his art on a technical level. I feel like you've hit the nail on the head when you say it's that their enthusiasm for the whiz-bang alien sci-fi topic shining through that really captivated me, even if his art wasn't as technically 'good' (a subjective call, to be sure) as some other Legion artists.

For me, Dave Cockrum is the art version of writers like Edmund Hamilton, who may not have been the greatest at writing serial comics, but his vision really ignited my imagination in a way that some more experienced (at comics, anyway! He wrote sci-fi short stories more than most of the rest combined!) writers sometimes failed to do. Dave just felt like he was brimming with big out-there ideas, and that came through on the page.

[Thor-Ul]

I agree with a lot of this, but with one caveat: note that the LoSH didn't get impacted at all by things that happened a thousand years ago to Batman, or Wonder Woman, or the Flash or Green Lantern, etc.; only by changes to Superman. Why? Because Superman wasn't thousand year old history to them; he was one of them. Furthermore, he was the reason the Legion existed in the first place. So of course core changes to Superman's timeline are going to impact the Legion.

Well, that can be explained editorialy: The Legion was for several years a Superman title, before becoming its own realm. I think we could speculate than Superboy spend more time with the Legion than Superman appeared in the Justice League, even. And that was why he being disconnected from them hurt not only the Legion, but the character of Superman.

But yes, a thousand years is a long time; and the 30th and 31st centuries ought to be treated as if they were taking place on a separate Earth from what's going on in the present, because aside from time travel links between the Legion and Superman (and a slightly more tenuous one involving the Flash), there's nothing that can happen in the 21st century that will make waves big enough in the timeline to disrupt the history of the Legion. Just play up that their knowledge of history is, for whatever reason, imprecise: say that at some point along the line, society collapsed and records were lost; and what the Legion knows of “future history” relative to the contemporary DCU is closer to legends than to history. If things start happening in the modern DCU that contradict what the Legion thinks it knows of history, and they learn of it because of their time travel ties to Superman, the general reaction should be “huh; didn't see that one coming. But it all worked out in the long run, so it's all good.” There's a certain optimism inherent in that idea that no matter how badly we screw up in the present, we still have a bright future to look forward to, which I think is essential to the Legion of Superheroes.

I can support this take. We always can blame the Great Disaster as the moment when historical records were lost or rewriten by evil villians and most of the stories become myths. Is better to have certain aspects on the grey zone instead to always risking to change accidentally history.

[Jim Kelly]

Tying the Legion to Superman has been the source of all the problems. Every time he changes his underwear, the Legion has to go through a total rethink. Much as I like the connection to Superboy--it would probably be better if they stopped trying to connect the Legion with whatever mainstream 21st century continuity happens to be at the time.

Thankfully, a few years ago I stumbled upon a head canon that works for me. And now every story that I reread, no matter the contradictions, I am able to fit it into that canon. As it's my own intellectual propery, you'll forgive me if I don't share it here.

[kcekada]

I doubt I would have picked up a Legion book as a kid, but I was a big fan of Superboy due to the Filmation series. That connection definitely benefited the Legion. But contemporary Superboys and Supergirls don't have the same impact -- so I'm fine with keeping Legion separate from the Superman family.

[Thor-Ul]

Tying the Legion to Superman has been the source of all the problems. Every time he changes his underwear, the Legion has to go through a total rethink. Much as I like the connection to Superboy--it would probably be better if they stopped trying to connect the Legion with whatever mainstream 21st century continuity happens to be at the time.

Thankfully, a few years ago I stumbled upon a head canon that works for me. And now every story that I reread, no matter the contradictions, I am able to fit it into that canon. As it's my own intellectual propery, you'll forgive me if I don't share it here.

Kinda of hard to not tying Legion to Superman, considering than the Legion was created as a Superboy feature. I mean, I understand than not everything happening in the present time books should affect a Legion book, but you can't eliminate him from the origin.

[Zero Hunter]

I have said for a long time DC screwed up by not taking Chris Kent (Lor Zod) and Cir-El and moving both of them to the future full time to be the new Superboy and Supergirl in the Legion. It would have kept the ties to Superman without worry and hassle of the Superman editors taking the characters back like we get with Conner, Jon, and Kara all the time. A Superboy and Supergirl that the Legion writers had complete control over.

[godisawesome]

Personally, I'd be more inclined to have the Legion embrace the vaguerities of Hypertime: there's one Legion in Earth 0's future; but because Hypertime allows timelines to split off and merge back in, that Legion has ties to seemingly incompatible versions of the Superman mythos. That is, instead of having multiple competing future Legions, present it as one consistent future Legion that's aware of multiple competing histories. There's a more or less consistent overall story that the Legion is aware of; but the specifics are fuzzy.

How’s about we go one better and make it a two-way street: the Legion has ties to seemingly incompatible versions of the Superman mythos on their end, while the Superman mythos has ties to seemingly incompatible versions of the Legion?

…And then the hijinks of both time periods doing time travel to each other causes extra issues they have to deal with/take advantage of?

So *one* Legion gets a book to be the stars of (the one connected to Clark specifically), but the Superboys and Supergirl know their own Legions… and there’s frequent “refugees” from the Legion timeline who end up trapped in the past for a while, and have difficulty traveling back to their “proper” Legion timeline… and sense Hypertime sometimes shifts to accommodate changes, there’s some drama over who can be where before things get hairy…

…And maybe you can incorporate and adjust to any retcons or changes mandated b6 editorial without eternally exiling a Legion or associated characters from continuity simply by having Superman lose access to “his” Legion for a while, and make “reconnecting” them a project for a writer.

[j9ac9k]

Maybe because I started reading the book later, I prefer that the Legion simply be inspired by Superman, or even just the "Age of Heroes" rather than having any Super actively being on the team. A few adventures together, but that's it.

[caj]

Maybe because I started reading the book later, I prefer that the Legion simply be inspired by Superman, or even just the "Age of Heroes" rather than having any Super actively being on the team. A few adventures together, but that's it.

Agree completely.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I just don’t get that idea of taking Superman out of the Legion. The Inhumans, Black Panther, and Galactus don’t need the Fantastic Four but I can’t imagine totally removing them from the FFs history. That’s how I feel when people say the Legion is better without Superman.

[Captain Nostalgia]

I just don’t get that idea of taking Superman out of the Legion. The Inhumans, Black Panther, and Galactus don’t need the Fantastic Four but I can’t imagine totally removing them from the FFs history. That’s how I feel when people say the Legion is better without Superman.

I suppose it's a generational thing, and depends upon when you started reading the Legion.

By the time I started reading, Superboy was long gone, and although I enjoyed reading the older stories with him it, my preference is no Superboy....(I prefer Mon El)

In general I prefer it when a super team can succeed independently without the aid of a trinity character, (the Legion without Superboy, the Outsiders without Batman and Justice League Dark without Wonder Woman ect)

[Vordan]

If they need a Super just adapt Superman X from the cartoon:



That avoids any continuity fuckery resulting from what’s going on in the past