Coates/Abrams Superman Project Discussion

[Vordan]

Consider this the official thread for anyone who wants to talk about/complain about this project.

Things we “know” about the project:
-It will star a black Superman
-It’s probably a black Clark given they originally wanted MBJ for the role but he declined after failing to get them to switch the focus to Val-Zod
-There were rumors it would be a period piece but others have come out and said that’s no longer true

As of right now both THR and Variety claim that the project is still in development and will sit alongside Gunn’s Superman reboot, albeit out of continuity and unconnected to the DCU like Reeves Batman and Phillips Joker. My guess? If WBD actually is interested in getting this project made then expect an official announcement or news some time in Feb 2023. It will be Superman’s 85th and Black History Month, perfect time for an announcement.

[manofsteel1979]

I don't mind this existing as long as it isn't the main DCU Superman and is its own elseworlds pocket universe.

I'm curious to see it actually happen and if it does well, it would be nice.

Success for out of main continuity movies like this and The Joker and the Reeves Batman universe is a good thing, because it would in theory encourage other out of continuity "one -offs" that fall outside of Gunn's plans for a connected universe.

It's probably the only way we may see resolutions or wrap up of some of the incarnations that are likely going away now that it's almost a certainty the Gunn relaunch is indeed a hard reboot. I'd love to see Gal Gadot and Patty Jenkins get their last Wonder Woman story , and perhaps a Henry Cavill one off Superman story. Oh to dream....

[The World]

I'm a black guy and it was precisely the Golden Age era of the Superman comics that made me a fan, but I don't think this makes much sense. At least from what I'm hearing what Coates is doing feels like a misread of the character. There's much ado about how Clark could have been a tyrant with his powers but I always saw the important point was that he could have just been a bystander and watched the world go whichever way the human race dragged it into. He was a hyper evolved alien with the power to go through anything humanity could throw at him yet he chose to try and help people out. If you make him black and especially if you set it back into the 40's you kind of change that narrative into something else entirely. Idk. I'm not totally against it but I think a Val-Zod movie or something would have made more sense.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I'm curious about it but until I see a trailer, I'm neutral.

[Sacred Knight]

With the shared universe being rebooted with Superman one of the first things on tap, this feels even more superfluous if indeed they're sticking with black Clark Kent. I mean, yeah there can be two different Clarks, more than two out there in the multiverse. But for the sake of a movie it just seems a better idea to use one of the alternates where there is more differentiating between them and Clark/Kal-El.

But then again I'm still sore they're not using this opportunity for Milestone instead so yeah.

[manwhohaseverything]

I don't mind this existing as long as it isn't the main DCU Superman and is its own elseworlds pocket universe.

I'm curious to see it actually happen and if it does well, it would be nice.

Success for out of main continuity movies like this and The Joker and the Reeves Batman universe is a good thing, because it would in theory encourage other out of continuity "one -offs" that fall outside of Gunn's plans for a connected universe.

It's probably the only way we may see resolutions or wrap up of some of the incarnations that are likely going away now that it's almost a certainty the Gunn relaunch is indeed a hard reboot. I'd love to see Gal Gadot and Patty Jenkins get their last Wonder Woman story , and perhaps a Henry Cavill one off Superman story. Oh to dream....

the main universe thing always flew over my head.But,all i know is welcome something that's actually creative.as a manga guy i want more people's take on the character with start,middle and finish.If this a goldenage take, That's more of a reason for me to champion this.

With the shared universe being rebooted with Superman one of the first things on tap, this feels even more superfluous if indeed they're sticking with black Clark Kent. I mean, yeah there can be two different Clarks, more than two out there in the multiverse. But for the sake of a movie it just seems a better idea to use one of the alternates where there is more differentiating between them and Clark/Kal-El.

But then again I'm still sore they're not using this opportunity for Milestone instead so yeah.

I would prefer something centered around superman.Not clark nor kal.These two had their fair share of takes.Most of the time it feels like superman is just a dumb costume he wears.

[achilles]

With the shared universe being rebooted with Superman one of the first things on tap, this feels even more superfluous if indeed they're sticking with black Clark Kent. I mean, yeah there can be two different Clarks, more than two out there in the multiverse. But for the sake of a movie it just seems a better idea to use one of the alternates where there is more differentiating between them and Clark/Kal-El.

But then again I'm still sore they're not using this opportunity for Milestone instead so yeah.

Honestly, I much rather an Icon movie rather than any of the existing black Supermen. Icon was original in execution if not in concept, (he's still obviously a different take on Superman). He had touches that made him unique among that sort of character.

[bat22]

A black Superman is an interesting if challenging pitch, but I don't think Ta-Nehisi Coates has the moderation or understanding when it comes to the American Dream, race relations, and racial history to make that black Superman an appealing one.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2015...ld-and-me.html

It would've been better to just adapt Dwayne McDuffie's Icon and Rocket.

[Mantis-Ray]

the main universe thing always flew over my head.But,all i know is welcome something that's actually creative.as a manga guy i want more people's take on the character with start,middle and finish.If this a goldenage take, That's more of a reason for me to champion this.


I would prefer something centered around superman.Not clark nor kal.These two had their fair share of takes.Most of the time it feels like superman is just a dumb costume he wears.

That is such a bizarre nonsensical take. Superman is the super-heroic identity Clark Kent/Kal-El puts on, he's not a separate character or alternate personality.

The civilian identity is what influences Superman, not the other way around. Like how in Justice League Gods and Monsters, Superman was raised by a Mexican migrant family and lived a harder life so his Superman turned out to be a much harsher person.

Taking the superhero identity by itself is how you get Rob Liefeld characters from Youngblood. Completely depthless asshats who have nothing of substance to them.

[JAK]

Consider this the official thread for anyone who wants to talk about/complain about this project.

Things we “know” about the project:
-It will star a black Superman
-It’s probably a black Clark given they originally wanted MBJ for the role but he declined after failing to get them to switch the focus to Val-Zod
-There were rumors it would be a period piece but others have come out and said that’s no longer true

As of right now both THR and Variety claim that the project is still in development and will sit alongside Gunn’s Superman reboot, albeit out of continuity and unconnected to the DCU like Reeves Batman and Phillips Joker. My guess? If WBD actually is interested in getting this project made then expect an official announcement or news some time in Feb 2023. It will be Superman’s 85th and Black History Month, perfect time for an announcement.

I'm of two minds on this, which are somewhat conflicting:

1: Is this creative, or cash-in? It could absolutely be creative, and beautiful. It could also be an attempt to cash in on controversy, while also trying to "bias-wash" after the years of stories about Ray Fisher's accounts on Justice League/etc. They seem like old news now, but they were fairly fresh when this was first announced. And like many of us, I have had very little faith in the creative ability of WB, in general.

2: This third point is more sensitive... on the one hand, I get that nearly every character in the Golden Age (both lead and supporting cast) was white, and that's one reason diversity casting of traditionally white characters has been a thing. However, when this movie was first announced, I was excited - because I thought we'd be getting a black Supermen from the multiverse. With this (most likely) being Clark Kent now.. where does that leave Calvin Ellis or Val-Zod? I get that people don't know those characters as well, but they know the name Superman - and I think their stories should be told. This somewhat ties into the other thought, since I think telling the stories of Val-Zod or Calvin Ellis are more creative ideas with greater possibility.


Separated from all of this is where WB stands. On that, I have no idea. Since the project, up to this point, has only been given attention in asides or footnotes... I'm of the opinion the WB likely feels that this likely won't go anywhere, but they'll never kill the project outright themselves because of the backlash it would cause - luckily for them (if that's the case), they may feel they won't need to since it keeps missing deadlines. I can see them having the stance of "just let this peter out on it's own," basically.

That said, there's always the chance that this could be good and a fresh take, and if that's the case - then cool! I'll always be disappointed that Val and Calvin haven't had any love yet, but hopefully that's coming someday.

I don't mind this existing as long as it isn't the main DCU Superman and is its own elseworlds pocket universe.

I'm curious to see it actually happen and if it does well, it would be nice.

Success for out of main continuity movies like this and The Joker and the Reeves Batman universe is a good thing, because it would in theory encourage other out of continuity "one -offs" that fall outside of Gunn's plans for a connected universe.

It's probably the only way we may see resolutions or wrap up of some of the incarnations that are likely going away now that it's almost a certainty the Gunn relaunch is indeed a hard reboot. I'd love to see Gal Gadot and Patty Jenkins get their last Wonder Woman story , and perhaps a Henry Cavill one off Superman story. Oh to dream....

That would be pretty cool, if it led to that!

[manwhohaseverything]

That is such a bizarre nonsensical take. Superman is the super-heroic identity Clark Kent/Kal-El puts on, he's not a separate character or alternate personality.

The civilian identity is what influences Superman, not the other way around. Like how in Justice League Gods and Monsters, Superman was raised by a Mexican migrant family and lived a harder life so his Superman turned out to be a much harsher person.

Taking the superhero identity by itself is how you get Rob Liefeld characters from Youngblood. Completely depthless asshats who have nothing of substance to them.

Never said he was alternate personality.i disagree,superman isn't some costume.It is an identity though.Clark/kal becomes superman.Superman is born from Clark's dreams,his reactions and his opinions seeing the world around him.That much i gather..A world of decency and all.It is born in metropolis.Not in smallville nor in krypton/fortress.Those are birth places of clark kent and kal el identities.

It(superman) is also an ephitat given to him because of his calibre and potential.After all batman or any other hero is exceptional.Yet,we don't call them superman.why clark/kal?he is an alien who flies or leaps,shoots lasers and ****.Really?am i supposed to be impressed by that when we have a wierder or more exceptional things in the world?the martian manhunter can do that and more..There are swamp things,ghosts and magical teleporting houses.Flash can run as fast as superman.

You might say his morality is what makes him exceptional?a morality that cannot answer the questions for the everyman(spinning around the globe/time travel is answer for superman.But,that ain't answer for me) such as trolley problem or Deal with heavy subjects in ways that can be cathartic and isn't condescending (come on,read peace on earth it condescending paternalism and nothing else).And more importantly has superman done anything exceptional morality wise that any other hero can't or wouldn't be able to do?

We know what clark is about.clark is about the farmlands,jobs,getting the girl and falling in love.We know what's kal is about.The immigrant trial and tribulations.Superman?? what's that about?you have any idea.All we have is "clark kent/kal el got a savior complex because of all four of his parents".Superman is merely about "saving the world"? that's it?That's making the superman into mere a clothing for his parent's will.i am sorry that's not really interesting for me...

non-superhero character's exist.Civilian identity is not what was front and centre in goldenage.It was the "hero" identity.Writers think they are being "deep" by putting clark kent or kal el front and center.i tend to disagree.Superman is a freaking champion .You think he wouldn't go through **** that's interesting on the streets,in his citadel or anywhere in the world?you think streets of metropolis isn't interesting?No way.. that's more interesting and that might be just me.

[Isaac Lawrence]

As of right now both THR and Variety claim that the project is still in development and will sit alongside Gunn’s Superman reboot, albeit out of continuity and unconnected to the DCU like Reeves Batman and Phillips Joker.

When it was first announced I assumed it was going to be a character study of Superman, similar to what Todd Phillips did with the Joker.

And considering Ta-Nehisi Coates was the writer, I would expect it to be a think-piece that would be up for consideration for Oscars; Best Picture and the like. Because that's the kind of writer he is.

It was never going to be a four-quadrant movie that the whole family would go and see. No, that's something that I assume James Gunn is going to do, Superman for the masses, for the hoi polloi, for the common man. A DC Studios Superman.

Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Superman I assumed would have been Superman for the haute monde, for the high society. The corps d'elite. Superman for people who read The New Yorker and The Atlantic. And a Warner Bros. Pictures Superman.

And James Gunn's Superman I suspect Warner Bros. wants to make close to a billion.

Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Superman I suspect Warner Bros. would be absolutely thrilled with... $500 million, maybe (and that may be a little high). What they would probably want most are Oscar considerations and perhaps wins, in again, the Best Picture category, and Best Screenplay. Maybe Best Actor. That type of thing.

James Gunn's Superman is meant to serve as the foundation of a connected cinematic universe and make a tremendous amount of money.

Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Superman is being positioned to win Best Picture and be something that the studio heads can brag about at their Hollywood parties -- "Look at how special were are. Look at what we've done, how genre defying we are; how above everyone else we are." [insert smiley face]

The latest rumors that I'm aware of...

• while the project was originally intended to be a period piece, the final draft submitted by Coates recently is not a period piece
  
  
• It’s not about a black superman being a victim of racism, rather it uses Superman’s alien heritage as a parallel to racism. They are, however going through with colorblind casting.
  
  
• Superman is heavily nerfed, being taken back to his golden age roots. He can no longer fly, but he can instead “leap tall buildings in a single bound”, He also lacks heat vision, frost breath and x-ray vision. He’s also described as moving at Mach 7
  
  
• They do have descriptions of the characters in the script which gives away their races. Lois Lane is written with an Asian Actress in mind Perry White is written as an African American man and Jimmy Olsen is described as a freckled redhead (no racebending with Jimmy)
  
  
• The Film is currently utilizing The golden age version of The Ultra-Humanite as the main antagonist although this may change. At no point in the story does he use the Albino Gorilla body.
  
  
• The script is rather long, clocking in at 165 pages. This may be due to the fact that the film is being written as an awards contender rather than a regular Superhero film. It portrays Superman as a champion of the opressed. The government hates him but the people love him.
  
  
• The film is a love letter to Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster’s original comics. It also has a dedication to them. Pa Kent’s character is based off of Jerry Siegel. It actually has a dedication to a lot of writers such as Jack Kirby, who serves as the inspiration for Dan Turpin.

So can't fly, only able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, champion of the oppressed, and the Ultra-Humanite from ACTION COMICS #13 as the possible bad guy, and love letter to Siegel and Shuster.

And I joke that they should probably call it The Super-Man, because it sounds like he would be a super man, a man with super powers.

And while this is of course rumor, it does sound like something Ta-Nehisi Coates would do.

I'm one of the pretentious people who read The Atlantic and are therefore the target audience for a Ta-Nehisi Coates Black Superman movie.

And I've read Ta-Nehisi Coates' articles and essays for years and am a fan and agree with a lot of what he says. And I've read a couple of his novels (and they're non-fiction; We Were Eight Years in Power and Between the World and Me). And so while the above is just rumor, I could see him writing something like that.

Interesting, back in October The Hollywood Reporter said it was a "multidecade-spanning story." I guess we'll see about.

As an aside, earlier this year it was reported that Nia DaCosta was going to direct Ta-Nehisi Coates' The Water Dancer, his fiction novel, for MGM, with Oprah Winfrey's production company producing. So we'll see how that develops.

In an interview last year Ta-Nehisi Coates has this to say...

Speaking of things that are wild, you are now participating in the legacy of one of the most powerful superhero characters. What can you say about Superman and what the journey has been like for you thus far?

Nothing I can say would be helpful here. Absolutely nothing. Nothing I can say will do anything to improve how this film is ultimately received. I got a big thing: I want people to have their own experience with the art, and I don’t want to step on it. I don’t want them to hear me. I don’t want them to see me. As much as possible, I really don’t want them to see me. I want them to see what we ultimately produce. And so what I’m trying to do is ... I’m not even being coy here.

We live in an era where people — because you have social media and can share so much — the instinct when you’re creating is to let fans in on the process, to let them see where you’re going. And I might could do that after. That might be an aftermath thing I would do, but I do worry about doing injustice to the art.

I just worry that you are, however unintentionally, seeding ideas in people’s head. Now, look, there’s a point where you have trailers and things where I’m going to have to talk about it, but if it were up to me, I wouldn’t say anything ever until it’d been out and seen and consumed and all of that. I don’t want to get in the way. I want Superman to have his chance.

Fair.

I really want him to live. I want him to be greeted. I don’t want me and whatever baggage the narrative of me has to overshadow that. I’ve said things in the past when I was working on things, and I guess this is still true. When I got on Captain America, I wrote about taking on Captain America, and the thing I wrote was, “It’s an opportunity for me to speak, it’s an opportunity for Cap to speak, and it’s an opportunity for me to figure out what this experience is like.” And it’s the same thing here. As much as possible I really would like to recede and hopefully make something that folks feel is worthy.

Well said.

Anyway, yeah, for the people who aren't down for the Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Superman, it's like... yeah, it ain't for you. It's not being written for you. You are not the intended audience.

It's being written for and is intended for the audience the see the kind of movies that win Best Picture. I suspect Joker was like that too. It just happened to connect with enough people and somehow made a billion dollars on a $60 million dollar budget. Things happen, I guess.

And yes, I absolutely loved the Joker. I think it's the greatest comic book movie ever made. And if Warner Bros. makes Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Superman movie, I am sure I will proclaim that the greatest comic book movie ever made supplanting the Joker; because I know thyself.

But yeah, this Ta-Nehisi Coates Black Superman movie, if it happens, and apparently it's still not dead yet, it's a vanity project, it's a prestige project. And it's intended for a select audience. It's not intended for everybody. No, that's James Gunn Superman.

Fan cast, and I don't usually do that, but I would fan cast Monsieur Regé-Jean Page as the Black Superman...

I think he could be a good Black Superman, and he has a fanbase that would support him. And his build is irrelevant. Because it would be "Ta-Nehisi Coates Black Superman," not comic book Superman.

But yep, the Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Superman I would assume would be ars gratia artis, art for art's sake.

The kind of stuff that Warner Bros. does from time to time.

[manwhohaseverything]

I do hope this is good and connects with people.Not just some random elites at some award show.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

When it was first announced I assumed it was going to be a character study of Superman, similar to what Todd Phillips did with the Joker.

And considering Ta-Nehisi Coates was the writer, I would expect it to be a think-piece that would be up for consideration for Oscars; Best Picture and the like. Because that's the kind of writer he is.

It was never going to be a four-quadrant movie that the whole family would go and see. No, that's something that I assume James Gunn is going to do, Superman for the masses, for the hoi polloi, for the common man. A DC Studios Superman.

Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Superman I assumed would have been Superman for the haute monde, for the high society. The corps d'elite. Superman for people who read The New Yorker and The Atlantic. And a Warner Bros. Pictures Superman.

And James Gunn's Superman I suspect Warner Bros. wants to make close to a billion.

Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Superman I suspect Warner Bros. would be absolutely thrilled with... $500 million, maybe (and that may be a little high). What they would probably want most are Oscar considerations and perhaps wins, in again, the Best Picture category, and Best Screenplay. Maybe Best Actor. That type of thing.

James Gunn's Superman is meant to serve as the foundation of a connected cinematic universe and make a tremendous amount of money.

Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Superman is being positioned to win Best Picture and be something that the studio heads can brag about at their Hollywood parties -- "Look at how special were are. Look at what we've done, how genre defying we are; how above everyone else we are." [insert smiley face]

The latest rumors that I'm aware of...


So can't fly, only able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, champion of the oppressed, and the Ultra-Humanite from ACTION COMICS #13 as the possible bad guy, and love letter to Siegel and Shuster.

And I joke that they should probably call it The Super-Man, because it sounds like he would be a super man, a man with super powers.

And while this is of course rumor, it does sound like something Ta-Nehisi Coates would do.

I'm one of the pretentious people who read The Atlantic and are therefore the target audience for a Ta-Nehisi Coates Black Superman movie.

And I've read Ta-Nehisi Coates' articles and essays for years and am a fan and agree with a lot of what he says. And I've read a couple of his novels (and they're non-fiction; We Were Eight Years in Power and Between the World and Me). And so while the above is just rumor, I could see him writing something like that.

Interesting, back in October The Hollywood Reporter said it was a "multidecade-spanning story." I guess we'll see about.

As an aside, earlier this year it was reported that Nia DaCosta was going to direct Ta-Nehisi Coates' The Water Dancer, his fiction novel, for MGM, with Oprah Winfrey's production company producing. So we'll see how that develops.

In an interview last year Ta-Nehisi Coates has this to say...



Well said.

Anyway, yeah, for the people who aren't down for the Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Superman, it's like... yeah, it ain't for you. It's not being written for you. You are not the intended audience.

It's being written for and is intended for the audience the see the kind of movies that win Best Picture. I suspect Joker was like that too. It just happened to connect with enough people and somehow made a billion dollars on a $60 million dollar budget. Things happen, I guess.

And yes, I absolutely loved the Joker. I think it's the greatest comic book movie ever made. And if Warner Bros. makes Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Superman movie, I am sure I will proclaim that the greatest comic book movie ever made supplanting the Joker; because I know thyself.

But yeah, this Ta-Nehisi Coates Black Superman movie, if it happens, and apparently it's still not dead yet, it's a vanity project, it's a prestige project. And it's intended for a select audience. It's not intended for everybody. No, that's James Gunn Superman.

Fan cast, and I don't usually do that, but I would fan cast Monsieur Regé-Jean Page as the Black Superman...

I think he could be a good Black Superman, and he has a fanbase that would support him. And his build is irrelevant. Because it would be "Ta-Nehisi Coates Black Superman," not comic book Superman.

But yep, the Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Superman I would assume would be ars gratia artis, art for art's sake.

The kind of stuff that Warner Bros. does from time to time.

I'm interested in a postmodern Golden Age take on Superman so I'm excited for it.

The description reminds of this fan reboot I saw years ago. Giving Superman a rough and tumble adventurer vibe could be fine. Given Gunn's writing another Superman project I would've preferred Val-Zod, Calvin or Steel being the focus.

Maybe it is Calvin or we could get a Superman red and blue type split in terms of design?

[Isaac Lawrence]

I'm interested in a postmodern Golden Age take on Superman so I'm excited for it.

I was probably one of the few that was excited when JJ Abrams came to Warner Bros., because the first thing I assumed that he was going to do was Superman.

And I wanted him to do a Golden Age Superman. And he could direct it or just produce it. Either/or was fine with me.

I would have never guessed in a million years that he would be the producer and get Ta-Nehisi Coates to write a Black Superman movie. That was like, "What?!"

And it's not something that I asked for, or even wanted. But after they said this is what we want to do, then hey, let's do it.

And here we are. And let's see what they do with it.

I do hope this is good and connects with people.Not just some random elites at some award show.

I hope it's massive. I hope it's Joker-billion-dollar massive.

Do I think it's going to do that, though... no. I think too many people will dismiss it out of hand. Regardless of what it's actually about, I think it will be dismissed by a lot of people.

Of course, all they can do is make it. And make it the best they can.

And like Ta-Nehisi Coates said:

Nothing I can say would be helpful here. Absolutely nothing. Nothing I can say will do anything to improve how this film is ultimately received. I got a big thing: I want people to have their own experience with the art, and I don’t want to step on it. I don’t want them to hear me. I don’t want them to see me. As much as possible, I really don’t want them to see me. I want them to see what we ultimately produce.

Yeah, just put it out there and see what happens.

It might be kind of cool if JJ Abrams can get Steven Spielberg to direct it.

One of my favorite films ever is The Color Purple.

Alice Walker wrote it. Warner Bros. made it. And Steven Spielberg directed it.

Maybe he'd like to do a Black Superman movie. Probably not, but maybe.

EDIT:

A Black director that they could go with is Barry Jenkins. He directed Best Picture winner Moonlight, and was nominated for Best Director; only the fourth Black director to get that nod.

And Barry Jenkins and Ta-Nehisi Coates are friends.