Gohan Beast vs Jiren

[JohnDiggle]

Can an upgraded Gohan beat up Jiren?

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[BitVyper]

Basically impossible to judge, since the movie used a combination of new characters and characters with no real scale against Jiren. By feats, Jiren is definitely still winning. My heart says... well Gohan kept training in secret after ToP according to the movie, so he's probably at least a little bit stronger than he was then to start. Orange Piccolo comes off as somewhat stronger than Mystic Gohan to me in the movie, and Beast is clearly a big jump up from him. I think he could probably at least fight pre-power up Jiren, but that Jiren's got feats for really going the distance and will probably win eventually. Post power up, nah I don't see Beast matching up with that Jiren.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Yeah, the strength of Gohan Beast is tricky to place at best. It's clearly intended to be Gohan's uber-transformation, like UI is for Goku and UE is for Vegeta. But it's not used against anybody that we can properly scale to anybody else of significance. Hell, we've never even seen Vegeta use Ultra-Ego in the anime.

Piccolo mentions that Goku and Vegeta would have trouble with Cell Max. But that's just speculation on his part and we don't know if he means in their Blue forms or Ultra forms, or whatever. Mystic Gohan was pretty close to Blue level and Gohan Beast is clearly quite a bit above that. And that is the closest we can tell.

So by board rules Jiren should have more concrete feats and wins this.

[Jcogginsa]

Some WoG that came up in the Orange Piccolo thread is that Cell Max, if he'd be completed, would have been on par with Broly.

And previous threads on here have pegged Broly as being below Jiren .


(There's also WoG about Orange Piccolo that I think puts him as at least God Level, but it's too ambigious to really be useful )

[Nik Hasta]

Mystic Gohan was pretty close to Blue level and Gohan Beast is clearly quite a bit above that.

How do you land on Mystic being close to Blue?

As I understand it, Bills was massively above an ambiguous "I have continued to train," SSJ3 Goku, who was pretty close to Mystic Gohan to my mind. SSJ God was an upgrade to this and much closer to Bills, maxing out with him using 70%(?) of his power (I think?) but ultimately couldn't keep up with God of Destruction.

SSJ Blue is a stabilised SSJ God that regulates their energy consumption at the cost of less directly explosive power.

So that's like, two powerups, one quite steep, the other a little lateral, ahead of where I'd pitch Mystic in the meta. Like even if Mystic was significant above SSJ3, I don't think it was as strong as Bills even kidding around. Beast Gohan seems pretty beefy in terms of the boost provided but I don't know if it closes the gap between Mystic and UI, much less Jiren.

[Jcogginsa]

Found the WoG

Orange Piccolo

Cell MAX

Hmm.

"If Cell MAX had been completed, he would have been a superhuman whp even Broly couldn't defeat, but since he was forcibly activated, he became an uncontrollable monster. "

That wording is interesting to me, because it implies that the thing Cell MAX lacked due to being incomplete was control, not power.

[Rightoya]

From what i got about the weird movie continuity with Super Saiyan Blue as the only transformation he scales above i am not even sure if Gohan Beast would survive Kefla's final effort focused on him outside of the manga, let alone if he stands any chance against Jiren.

[Robotech Master]

How do you land on Mystic being close to Blue?

As I understand it, Bills was massively above an ambiguous "I have continued to train," SSJ3 Goku, who was pretty close to Mystic Gohan to my mind. SSJ God was an upgrade to this and much closer to Bills, maxing out with him using 70%(?) of his power (I think?) but ultimately couldn't keep up with God of Destruction.

SSJ Blue is a stabilised SSJ God that regulates their energy consumption at the cost of less directly explosive power.

So that's like, two powerups, one quite steep, the other a little lateral, ahead of where I'd pitch Mystic in the meta. Like even if Mystic was significant above SSJ3, I don't think it was as strong as Bills even kidding around. Beast Gohan seems pretty beefy in terms of the boost provided but I don't know if it closes the gap between Mystic and UI, much less Jiren.

You seem to be looking at where Mystic was in the Buu arc. Piccolo said they weren't just having Gohan regain his Mystic Form in Super, but take it further beyond. When they completed that training, Mystic Gohan was fighting on par with SSJ Blue.

[Nik Hasta]

You seem to be looking at where Mystic was in the Buu arc. Piccolo said they weren't just having Gohan regain his Mystic Form in Super, but take it further beyond. When they completed that training, Mystic Gohan was fighting on par with SSJ Blue.

Wow, I fully just blanked on Gohan being in the tournament in Super.

Ignore me, I clearly should not post while intoxicated.

[Jackalope89]

Yeah, Gohan during the ToP threatened Golden Freeza, more than hinting he was strong enough to handle him if Freeza betrayed them. So yeah, somewhere around Blue level at least by ToP (nevermind it took like, one day to get there). We know Freeza got bodied against GoD Toppo, whom was below Jiren. And badly to boot. Then Jiren... Yeah.

[Captain Morgan]

There was so much sandbagging in the ToP though... We also had Krillin and Roshi participating on the same stage as SSBs. I'm not saying Gohan was presented as weak as they were or anything, but everyone just kind of got arbitrarily scaled up to the point where they were relevant, despite the SSG breakthrough requiring specific rituals and such.

I guess bad writing doesn't necessarily disqualify feats and presentation, but...

[grampagen]

There was so much sandbagging in the ToP though... We also had Krillin and Roshi participating on the same stage as SSBs. I'm not saying Gohan was presented as weak as they were or anything, but everyone just kind of got arbitrarily scaled up to the point where they were relevant, despite the SSG breakthrough requiring specific rituals and such.

I guess bad writing doesn't necessarily disqualify feats and presentation, but...

I will always remember that moment where Vegeta performed that self-sacrifice move to defeat Toppo that used up all his ki, and that if he used up all his ki, he could potentially die like he did in the Buu saga when he last did it, but when he survived everyone in the audience and on the battlefield remarked how he really, truly, used all his ki.

Then in the next episode or thereabouts he powered up to max in preparation fight Jiren. I guess he just had some more.

Yeah, Gohan during the ToP threatened Golden Freeza, more than hinting he was strong enough to handle him if Freeza betrayed them. So yeah, somewhere around Blue level at least by ToP (nevermind it took like, one day to get there). We know Freeza got bodied against GoD Toppo, whom was below Jiren. And badly to boot. Then Jiren... Yeah.

This assessment is about right. At this point in time, Gohan's somewhere around SSJ Blue in that rung of talent along with Freeza and #17, but a step below Kaioken Blue, Royal Blue, and Ultra Instinct.

[Dark Soul # 7]

I will always remember that moment where Vegeta performed that self-sacrifice move to defeat Toppo that used up all his ki, and that if he used up all his ki, he could potentially die like he did in the Buu saga when he last did it, but when he survived everyone in the audience and on the battlefield remarked how he really, truly, used all his ki.

Then in the next episode or thereabouts he powered up to max in preparation fight Jiren. I guess he just had some more.

Another weird example is at the end of Vegeta vs. Jiren. Vegeta is on the last dregs of his power, has no transformation going and can barely stand up or throw a punch. But when he does, Jiren actually bothers to block said punch.

Earlier in the tournament Jiren had litterally just stood there completely unflinching when a fairly fresh base form Goku relentlessly attacked him. A base form Kame Hame Ha wasn't even able to get through Jiren's passive power field. So him bothering to block a Vegeta who was on the verge of passing out was really weird to me.

This assessment is about right. At this point in time, Gohan's somewhere around SSJ Blue in that rung of talent along with Freeza and #17, but a step below Kaioken Blue, Royal Blue, and Ultra Instinct.

Yup, this is what I was referring to. In the lead up to the ToP Gohan even had a sparring match with Goku where he forced his dad to get serious in SSJ Blue by activating his Mystic form.

And thus, Gohan Beast is quite a step above Mystic. If it actually matches up to Ultra Instinct/Ego and Jiren is unclear though.