Personal Wonder Woman Head-Canon

[Alpha]

Because being an all-female society and how that influences things is one of those utterly unique social factors. Obviously.

So it's the situation they are built around, but it's not something they specifically desire to maintain?

And what you described was "what if a greek society of women lost all their men in a war and then became immortal", the foundational aspect of it is that half their people died, and they are fine with it?

What's the statement here? What's the philosophical theme for why this society specifically is only female?
Because in terms of plot, you seem to be talking about widows building a society on their own, but that's radically distinct from everything else in the Wonderverse Thematically. Not antagonistic, but very disconnected.

I didn't say it was the opposite of an afterlife narrative, I said I prefer it more than another afterlife narrative.

My point is that an afterlife narrative does in fact justify everything else you described about creating a uniquely evolving society
They aren't alternatives to each other.

[Ascended]

So it's the situation they are built around, but it's not something they specifically desire to maintain?

You're putting an awful lot of words in my mouth. How exactly did you get from "I don't want Greek Valhalla" to "The Amazons don't care about their demographic makeup?"

[bardkeep]

I'm aware of the symbolism. I read it not as the abuse that's the keystone to Amazonian 'worthiness' but rising up and fighting back against it. Which is why I asked about the social worker or activist. Are they not worthy? To my mind, the reason the Amazons were blessed by the gods and given the Island isn't because they were victims. As you say, the patriarchy is abuse, so we're all victims to one degree or another. No, I think the Amazons were given the Island because even beaten down, they were strong enough to take a stand.

And none of that, I think, requires 'new' Amazons. I wouldn't want drowned sailors being reborn as Atlanteans either.

The abuse is a given. But Themyscria is not Valhalla. It's not a reward you get after suffering under the patriarchy. Diana's whole mission, to me, isn't about a glorious rebirth on a magic faraway land, it's about building our own Paradise Island right here. She's here to burn the patriarchy to the ground, not relocate us.

Besides that, and this is my chief issue with the concept, it diminishes Diana's uniqueness. If 'new' Amazons are showing up on a regular basis then Diana's not quite so out of place; even if those other women are being reborn as adults they're still new faces. I prefer it when Diana's not just the only child on the Island, but the only new face that anyone has seen in centuries.

Have you read Perez's Gods and Mortals or Historia, the two biggest origin stories that use the reincarnation thing? I can't imagine reading those and interpreting Themyscira as Valhalla/an afterlife, and that's only partially because the Amazons aren't undead (they're spiritually reincarnated with no memories of their past lives). The island isn't a reward and it's not given to them fully baked. And the Amazons weren't created to live in isolation - the goddesses created them to fight the power and protect others from oppression.

The island has always begun as a tragedy. In the Marston origin, Aphrodite told them they had to leave the world of men after they freed themselves from Heracles and his men, so they sailed off and found the island. In Perez's origin it was a punishment because they relished in excessive violence against their oppressors (which is pretty damn problematic and why I much prefer the Historia take on the whole thing). In both cases it becomes a place of healing - a paradise, even - because the Amazons actualize it. That story of trauma, loss, and healing lies at the center of Diana's entire mission.

The idea of Amazons popping up on Themyscira through the Well of Souls is a very recent addition, just from the past couple of years. I have mixed feelings and prefer the Perez and DeConnick takes on it, but there's one explanation I can get down with - Diana is the first Amazon to be born on Themyscira after centuries of isolation, but the magic from her creation activates the well and indicates fate shifting toward Themyscira's re-entry into the outside world.

If others like Themyscria as Valhalla, more power to you. But in *my* headcanon, they're a static/immortal population that has developed their own totally unique society and culture, without touching anything from the outside world. Nobody arrives, nobody leaves (baring an exception or three of course). That's far more interesting to me than yet another 'afterlife' narrative. All these women, stuck on a relatively small island they can't leave and no one else can find, and they're immortal. What does that *do* to a people? How does their society evolve, and more importantly how is it different (and similar) to our own because of it? These are social pressures and factors we have no allegory for in reality. Even 'lost' tribes in the deep rainforest and such are influenced by our impact on climate, etc. Not Themyscira. That's fascinating to me. And I don't think reborn, new Amazons fit that. Nor do I think, quite honestly, that it fits several elements in their society, including but not limited to Amazon isolationism. But to each their own.

So you want to completely disconnect the Amazons from real-world oppression and all of the themes that accompany it?

What is relatable or important about the Amazons' struggle? Why do they need to all be women if they weren't subjugated by men? Why do they all wear broken shackles on their wrists? What happens to the central theme of intergenerational trauma? Why are the Amazons wary of the outside world? What motivates Diana's creation if they're a static population? How does the story specifically empower and speak to the experience of marginalized people, i.e. the entire reason the character exists?

A story about a truly isolated society could be interesting, but Wonder Woman is an amazing story that isn't about that.

I'm not taking away anything except a unnecessary Valhalla proxy. Actually, since we're talking personal head canon, I'm not taking anything away from anyone.

No, you're taking out the entire foundation of the lore, which is that the Amazons were enslaved by men, rose up against their oppressors, and liberated themselves. You're also taking away the thing that motivates everything about how Diana and the Amazons operate.

I like the reincarnation thing, but I could take it or leave it because it isn't that important. The Amazons' experiences before they arrive on the island are the things that matter.

[Alpha]

You're putting an awful lot of words in my mouth. How exactly did you get from "I don't want Greek Valhalla" to "The Amazons don't care about their demographic makeup?"

After you described ypur tale, I literally asked you "why does it matter that they are a female society", and your answer was:

Because being an all-female society and how that influences things is one of those utterly unique social factors.

I don't see where in here I have put words into your mouth or made giant leaps of logic.

I'm struggling to understand why the amazons uniquely occupy the role you described, rather than for example the Argonauts or Ithaca.

[Ascended]

Have you read Perez's Gods and Mortals or Historia, the two biggest origin stories that use the reincarnation thing?

Read Perez, though it's been years. When I re-read old stuff I gravitate to Rucka's first run, Jimenez, sometimes Byrne (his was the first run I was able to read as-it-happened, in its entirety). Haven't got my hands on Historia yet, but it's on the list. I hear it lived up to expectations, so I'm pretty excited for it.

The island has always begun as a tragedy. That story of trauma, loss, and healing lies at the center of Diana's entire mission.

...wait, do you think I want to change the origin?

The idea of Amazons popping up on Themyscira through the Well of Souls is a very recent addition, just from the past couple of years.

And *that's* what I'm talking about.

I like the reincarnation thing, but I could take it or leave it because it isn't that important. The Amazons' experiences before they arrive on the island are the things that matter.

Yes! That's what I've been saying! What did y'all think I meant when I was talking about 'new' Amazons being born in the modern era?

Oh, speaking of Byrne. Not exactly headcanon, but I actually liked Cassie more when she was an awkward kid using old relics. I appreciate her growth as a character and the confidence she's gained, she's come a long way, but I miss the gangly nerd in goggles, and that's often how I think of her.

[bardkeep]

What did y'all think I meant when I was talking about 'new' Amazons being born in the modern era?

I wasn't talking about that - again, I also have mixed feelings about new Amazons popping up, though I'm much more open to it than you are. I was referring to this:

To me the Amazons are the ancient Greeks who lost their men and nation fighting Ares thousands of years ago, and were given the boon of immortality on the Island along with the duty of protecting the Doorway.

I asked about your familiarity with Perez's origin and Historia because I'm not sure how familiar you are with the established lore. I'd include the Marston comics and/or any accompanying scholarship but I've gotta cap my nerd gatekeeping somewhere

The Amazons were never Greek women, nor did they ever have husbands they lost - they were always an all-women society created by the goddesses (or in Marston's origin just Aphrodite) to combat patriarchy, though Historia's Amazons also include mortal recruits. And you've removed the Amazons' history of enslavement by and liberation from men, which is as thematically essential to WW's mythos as Krypton's destruction is to Superman's.

I do like the reincarnation idea thematically, and I like that it gives a clear reason why the Amazons look so racially and ethnically diverse. But by "I could take or leave it," I meant that I'd be fine with the Greek goddesses creating the Amazons as a new race of women without a pool of lost souls they're pulling from. I'm definitely not fine with them being ancient Greek women who lost their men and were made immortal to guard Doom's Doorway - that doesn't have any of the thematic texture that needs to be in the lore.

And regarding your larger vision of the Amazons, I'd second Alpha's question here:

I'm struggling to understand why the amazons uniquely occupy the role you described, rather than for example the Argonauts or Ithaca.

Oh, speaking of Byrne. Not exactly headcanon, but I actually liked Cassie more when she was an awkward kid using old relics. I appreciate her growth as a character and the confidence she's gained, she's come a long way, but I miss the gangly nerd in goggles, and that's often how I think of her.

With you here. My wildest dream is that they'll bring back Trevor Barnes and give him the "nerdy Wonder Woman-loving kid with old relics" origin.

[Agent Z]

I wasn't talking about that - again, I also have mixed feelings about new Amazons popping up, though I'm much more open to it than you are. I was referring to this:



I asked about your familiarity with Perez's origin and Historia because I'm not sure how familiar you are with the established lore. I'd include the Marston comics and/or any accompanying scholarship but I've gotta cap my nerd gatekeeping somewhere

The Amazons were never Greek women, nor did they ever have husbands they lost - they were always an all-women society created by the goddesses (or in Marston's origin just Aphrodite) to combat patriarchy, though Historia's Amazons also include mortal recruits. And you've removed the Amazons' history of enslavement by and liberation from men, which is as thematically essential to WW's mythos as Krypton's destruction is to Superman's.

I do like the reincarnation idea thematically, and I like that it gives a clear reason why the Amazons look so racially and ethnically diverse. But by "I could take or leave it," I meant that I'd be fine with the Greek goddesses creating the Amazons as a new race of women without a pool of lost souls they're pulling from. I'm definitely not fine with them being ancient Greek women who lost their men and were made immortal to guard Doom's Doorway - that doesn't have any of the thematic texture that needs to be in the lore.

And regarding your larger vision of the Amazons, I'd second Alpha's question here:





With you here. My wildest dream is that they'll bring back Trevor Barnes and give him the "nerdy Wonder Woman-loving kid with old relics" origin.

Sorry, did you mean Bobby Barnes?

[bardkeep]

Sorry, did you mean Bobby Barnes?

Lol yes I do, thanks

[Ascended]

I asked about your familiarity with Perez's origin and Historia because I'm not sure how familiar you are with the established lore. I'd include the Marston comics and/or any accompanying scholarship but I've gotta cap my nerd gatekeeping somewhere

Wonder fans, more than most, should know what BS gatekeeping is even as a joke. And I'm not the one who needs to prove they know the source material anyway, given that I'm not the person confusing a minor statement about newly created Amazons for the entire people and all their history. Nor am I assuming that someone doesn't know the basic fundamentals simply because they're not directly mentioned. Should every post also point out that I know what Diana's powers are?

That said, and bear in mind I say this just because you asked (I hate comparing this sorta stuff, feels too 'who's the real fan'). I've read Marston, though I gifted my copies to a co-worker's daughter years back and haven't been able to replace them. I've read Kanigher (not an abundance). I've read at least a little bit from every era but the Mod (only read like, two maybe three of those). I've read in their entirety (and I know I'm forgetting some) WML, Byrne, JMS, Jimenez, Rucka, Azzarello, Simone, Rucka again....and anyone who has written Diana over the last thirty years, I've probably got a incomplete run, or at least a few issues. I won't support bad comics and am not a completist, but there's damn few writers I didn't at least try. I'm sure a few slipped through the cracks, but only a few. I've read Elseworlds like Morrison's Earth 1 (only the first volume, that was enough), and some of the YA bookstore OGN's with my little girl. I've seen the entire Carter tv show (though not since I was a teen), the first movie (wisely avoided WW84 after hearing reviews), the first animated direct-to-DvD animated movie, and of course stuff like JLU, Young Justice, etc., where Diana shows up but isn't a/the main character.

I've also read a few books about Diana and her history, as well as Marston's (such as the blandly named 'History of Wonder Woman'). I've read essays, interviews, and articles breaking down various elements of the franchise, both within the fiction and from the business/creative sides. And while I didn't major in sociology or psychology, I did take several courses in both (lowest grade in any of them; 3.4) so I'm versed (not not an expert) in the various waves of feminism, and the other social paradigms that the franchise plays with. I've studied Greek myth since I was a kid (though these days I'm mostly reading the Norse eddas). I'm also married to the most badass woman on earth, who survived domestic violence and rose up to be one of my state's most celebrated and effective domestic violence advocates.

Do my credentials get me past the gate?

The Amazons were never Greek women

Closer to modern day Turkey, if I remember the core myths right. But "Greek" is the shorthand everybody uses, and has used since forever. You're splitting hairs.

And you've removed the Amazons' history of enslavement by and liberation from men, which is as thematically essential to WW's mythos as Krypton's destruction is to Superman's.

And you don't see me mentioning Krypton in every post about Clark either. Some things are a given and don't need to be said. But I suspect you're still confused. I'm talking, very specifically and exclusively, about modern day women being reborn as Amazons. The thing you yourself said was a newer addition to the mythos and one you could 'take or leave.' I'm not talking about Hippolyta, or any of the ancient Amazons or their history. Never was.

[Stanlos]

The statement that "the Amazons were never Greek women" isn't exactly true. For the reboot Messner-Loebs did under Dan Thorsland he told the origin a different way. In that one, after they were created, the Amazons stood before the Goddesses and Hippolyte came forward and suggested that the Amazons be permitted to live a mortal life in different parts of the world and to return to the Island with the knowledge of those lives. Hippolyte herself lived as an Athenian woman and became leader upon the Great Return.

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[Stanlos]

The next pages of WML origin

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[Agent Z]

The Amazons can't use earth magic due to Gaia.

[Perseus]

The Amazons can't use earth magic due to Gaia.

Wouldn't Gaia be an ally? So they should use earth magic, right?

[Perseus]

The Well is for reincarnation and Themyscira is not Valhalla. It's not an afterlife or anything, Paradise Island is just the name of the Island(s) because of its beauty and abundance, but I personally don't think it should be perfect, it's another civilization so there should be some flaws and conflict. The women who are reincarnated are not women who deserve a good afterlife but women who deserve a second chance at life itself. A counter point to a subject brought up earlier is that women who HAVE done tremendous work in the outside world through activism and such should probably go to their preferred Heaven when they die and not be reincarnated into Themyscira. Because, Themyscira is not an afterlife, it's a place, It's a really beautiful and fantastical place, but no more than say like Numenor in Tolken's world. People can go to Themyscira without dying or being reincarnated, you could make the argument that it's like the bridge between life and afterlife, but that would be the extent of it.

I also don't think that Themyscira is a place about deserving either, because we get too spiritual with that mindset. I mean we're here arguing in a circle about what kind of women deserve to go to Themyscira. As if it is Heaven, when it's never really been depicted as such. It's somewhat semantic in a way, I mean is there a Holy Book for this kind of discussion?

I also think the Well should look like this and be somewhere on Paradise Island.
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[Ascended]

It's a really beautiful and fantastical place, but no more than say like Numenor in Tolken's world. People can go to Themyscira without dying or being reincarnated, you could make the argument that it's like the bridge between life and afterlife, but that would be the extent of it.

Where do you place the Island, cosmologically/geographically speaking? Is it a place you can sail to, or is it somehow disconnected and you can only get there under specific circumstances?

I was always vague on Numenor, having never read the Silmarillion. Hobbit and LotR was enough; Tolkien was a creative genius but so dry a writer even Frank Hurbert looks kinetic. Is it other-dimensional somehow, or was it just really far away?

The Amazons can't use earth magic due to Gaia.

Interesting. Why not?