Black Panther and Batman vs Doctor Doom

[Beadle]

For example, let’s look at time control.

Bruce has never, to my knowledge, created any form of time machine.

T’Challa has, I believe, once made a rudimentary time machine.

Doom has made countless time machines, has built time travel technology into his suit, and (along with Reed) is so good at it that when the TVA got in their faces about it, he was able to basically say “Yes. We’ve fucked time. And we’ll do it again. And if you come anywhere near our families, we’ll **** time so hard you’ll never be able to fix it again, so back off, bitches.”

[Jcogginsa]

I may be oversimplifying but as I see it, Bruce's Prep is usually stuff that allows him to manage against Class 100 level people. Maybe, sort of, kind of. Usually with some gimmes. To be fair, from what I understand Black Panther is somewhere in the same range, having come out ahead against high-level people when he has a lot of one-sided prep, himself.

Doom's prep allows him to do stuff like 'power-jack Galactus, then use THAT to power-jack Pre-Retcon Beyonder'.

T'Challa has flat out cured Galactus' Hunger with preptime, which I'd say is a more significant feat of Prep-time.

For example, let’s look at time control.

Bruce has never, to my knowledge, created any form of time machine.

T’Challa has, I believe, once made a rudimentary time machine.

Doom has made countless time machines, has built time travel technology into his suit, and (along with Reed) is so good at it that when the TVA got in their faces about it, he was able to basically say “Yes. We’ve fucked time. And we’ll do it again. And if you come anywhere near our families, we’ll **** time so hard you’ll never be able to fix it again, so back off, bitches.”

Depends on the Batman. Pre-Crisis Batman for example was able to time travel all the time, and change history, without even needing a Time Machine

[Shellhead]

T'Challa has flat out cured Galactus' Hunger with preptime, which I'd say is a more significant feat of Prep-time.



Depends on the Batman. Pre-Crisis Batman for example was able to time travel all the time, and change history, without even needing a Time Machine

Did either of these feats take place in a one-page Hostess Fruit Pie ad in the '70s?

[Jcogginsa]

Did either of these feats take place in a one-page Hostess Fruit Pie ad in the '70s?

No.

The Hunger thing happened in an Al Ewing Comic called the Utlimates, and stuck for a while.

The Batman stuff happened in multiple Pre-Crisis stories

[Pendaran]

T'Challa has flat out cured Galactus' Hunger with preptime, which I'd say is a more significant feat of Prep-time.

Do you feel that you have offered full context to this feat?

Because again by the standard you are offering for performances and the details you give for them, Doom defeated the Beyonders and salvaged something from the multiversal collapse, T'challa failed to do so.

Also, again by that standard, Doom captured Galactus and turned him into a power source.

Also, and again we're going here by your standards for why a performance demonstrates anything of note, Doom power jacked a Dormammu who had otherwise taken control of Ego the Living Planet, which he had done more or less from Doom manipulating him.

But you feel the thing you have said is more significant? What is your justification for saying so beyond "it is because I say so"?

But setting all that aside, why is "Doom power jacked someone vastly more powerful than Galactus at the time" less impressive than "cured Galactus' hunger". Your entire previous argument centered on "well Panther beat someone Doom couldn't", and now your arguement is "Doom beat someone vastly more powerful than Galactus that one time, so clearly Panther doing something to Galactus makes that not count." What do you feel is the internal comparative logic there?

To be clear, someone said this, I'll bold the relevant part:

Doom's prep allows him to do stuff like 'power-jack Galactus, then use THAT to power-jack Pre-Retcon Beyonder'.

Your reply is this:

T'Challa has flat out cured Galactus' Hunger with preptime, which I'd say is a more significant feat of Prep-time.

Your reply is near literally saying "the time he affected a being vastly less powerful than the one Doom did is more significant". How do you feel these statements make sense as responses to each other?

Now, the better thing to note would be, that post retcon Beyonder makes Doom's performance in that particular instance ultimately less impressive* because, you know, retcons, but you specifically can't really note that and still be consistent with anything you're now saying, since the rest of your argument is now "well Pre crisis Batman...", so I guess we're on "whatever version of the character here that lets me say the characters I want win is the version we are using", according to your posts.

I mean, the thread didn't specify pre crisis Batman and going by board things we use the default version of the character, for one thing, but we are where we are, I suppose.

*I realize there are really good odds of everything I've posted here being now ignored to seize onto that one bit instead and go "see! you agree then T'challa did the more impressive thing!", so do please see my questions about you offering full context for the performance you mentioned and pretty much every single other thing I listed.

[Jcogginsa]

Do you feel that you have offered full context to this feat?

Because again by the standard you are offering for performances and the details you give for them, Doom defeated the Beyonders and salvaged something from the multiversal collapse, T'challa failed to do so.

Also, by that standard, Doom captured Galactus and turned him into a power source.

Also, by that standard, Doom power jacked a Dormammu who had otherwise taken control of Ego the Living Planet, which he had done more or less from Doom manipulating him.

But you feel the thing you have said is more significant? What is your justification for saying so beyond "it is because I say so"?

But setting all that aside, why is "Doom power jacked someone vastly more powerful than Galactus at the time" less impressive than "cured Galactus' hunger". Your entire previous argument centered on "well Panther beat someone Doom couldn't", and now your arguement is "Doom beat someone vastly more powerful than Galactus that one time, so clearly Panther doing something to Galactus makes that not count." What do you feel is the internal comparative logic there?

To be clear, someone said this, I'll bold the relevant part:



Your reply is this:




Now, the better thing to note would be, that post retcon Beyonder makes Doom's performance ultimately less impressive because, you know, retcons, but you can't really note that and still be consistent with anything you're now saying, since the rest of your argument is now "well Pre crisis Batman...", so I guess we're on "whatever version of the character here that lets me say the characters I want win is the version we are using", according to your posts.

I mean, the thread didn't specify pre crisis Batman and going by board things we use the default version of the character, for one thing, but we are where we are, I guess.

1. When I said "A more signficant feat of preptime" what I meant was "In comparison to stealing Galactus' power". I wasn't accounting for the Beyonder stuff, My bad, I should have made that more clear.

2. My only intention with bringing up these T'Challa feats is to show that Panther can operate in the same league as Doom, not that these feats make him de facto better. Basically all I'm arguing is that we shouldn't just automatically

[Pendaran]

2. My only intention with bringing up these T'Challa feats is to show that Panther can operate in the same league as Doom, not that these feats make him de facto better. Basically all I'm arguing is that we shouldn't just automatically

The way in which you bring up these feats and the way in which the particular details of them get brushed over inescapably brings us back to that when Panther and Doom took on the exact same high end cosmic problem with massive amounts of prep, allies and resources, Panther failed and Doom did not.

Had Doom brought in Reed, Panther, whoall ever, into his workings, could Doom have done better than he did as far as only ending up with Battleworld afterwards? Sure. The entire ending of Secret Wars is him having to admit that to Reed. But the entire beginning of Secret Wars is that Doom succeeded where functionally everyone else failed.

What people are otherwise bringing up with stuff like time travel and what all have you is just that in the end, without getting into stuff like the above, we've seen Doom do more with what he has. Hell, Doom has outright conquered the entire world multiple times, with no Wakanda shaped exceptions, only to lose it out of getting bored and doing something explicitly dumb/intentionally throwing his win away because he's bored and doesn't really want it anymore.

[Pendaran]

Anyway, all that aside:

when the TVA got in their faces about it, he was able to basically say “Yes. We’ve fucked time. And we’ll do it again. And if you come anywhere near our families, we’ll **** time so hard you’ll never be able to fix it again, so back off, bitches.”

When was this? Their main TVA interactions I remember was Reed murdering his way out of his own murder trial (this is not as much of an analogy as you might think it is for when he was going to be punished for time crimes, as it were), and Doom having the TVA think they killed him when in reality they only kinda sorta wasted Kristoff.

[Sharpandpointies]

T'Challa has flat out cured Galactus' Hunger with preptime, which I'd say is a more significant feat of Prep-time.

Beaten to it, but basically as was said, maybe T'Challa operating rather largely above where he normally operates has managed to do something to fundamentally change Galactus.

This is on a level where Doom had operated multiple times, with regards to stuff Doom has put together (as noted, again), and is nowhere even close to Doom setting into motion and successfully carrying out a plan to power-jack an effective omnipotent being who does stuff like 'eliminate even the concept of Death across the entire 616 universe and all of its nigh-infinite connected dimensions'.

Better yet, Doom did this stuff working with alien technology with which he had only a few days of time to look at and his own suit.

Yes, we've already been over this but it bears repeating.

T'Challa, for all of his ability to prep, isn't operating on the level of Doom.

[Muadib]

I think i'm about as big a Batman nerd as can be, who thinks Morrison Batgod is just the most awesome thing ever. I also hold Black Panther in great esteem. But even i have to admit, when it comes to self made, bad ass to the core, tells gods to **** off, finds godhood beneath him, twists time into a pretzel, Master of Science, Magic and Warfare, most dangerous mortal in multiple omniverses, Victor Von Doom stands head and shoulders above his peers and rivals.

They'll put up a good fight no doubt, but with a month of prep, the outcome would never be in doubt.

[Shellhead]

How do we assess a feat that is subsequently undermined by a retcon? I'm thinking about how the Beyonder get retconned from a high-level cosmic being to an Inhuman mutant hybrid.

[Pendaran]

How do we assess a feat that is subsequently undermined by a retcon? I'm thinking about how the Beyonder get retconned from a high-level cosmic being to an Inhuman mutant hybrid.

The only thing I feel like you can fully salvage from it is Doom managing to act through his own vivisection as far as a willpower thing, but that's my own personal view.

The whole "the cosmic entities were playing along" thing otherwise puts a question mark on most of it.

[Sharpandpointies]

I mean, fair enough, but Galactus? Totally not playing along. Beyonder? Above Galactus, regardless of what kind of retcon we want to put on it.

And I am somewhat iffy on the whole idea of 'retcons making any worthwhile sense' when the entire concept of Death vanished from the multiverse for a time. I mean, is it the retcon of Beyonder being an Inhuman Mutant Hybrid the thing that is reasonable at this point? Or is THAT the part that is poor writing?

Basically, Doom did actually power-jack Galactus and used that power to power-jack someone higher than Galactus, himself. We can argue about whether or not that still counts at all, despite being a part of Marvel history at this point, I suppose.

[Jcogginsa]

How do we assess a feat that is subsequently undermined by a retcon? I'm thinking about how the Beyonder get retconned from a high-level cosmic being to an Inhuman mutant hybrid.

I think that Retcon was undone anyway. When he showed up in the recent Defenders Mini, Beyonder was back to being presented as a cosmic entity.

[Nik Hasta]

Depends on the Batman. Pre-Crisis Batman for example was able to time travel all the time, and change history, without even needing a Time Machine

I'm going to need some clarification on this.

How does Batman travel in time without a time machine?