Why do some people want the Punisher to accidentally kill civilians?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well like you said Punisher is more grounded in the real world. So I think if you did one story with it, it'd be harder to believe that this guy doesn't accidentally kill people often.

So you can talk about it, acknowledge the reality of it, but one story is where you draw the line...?

[The Negative Zone]

So you can talk about it, acknowledge the reality of it, but one story is where you draw the line...?

I just think it breaks the suspension of disbelief even if it's just one story. It's like breaking the rules of the world. It's like he said Punisher isn't using fantasy powers, he doesn't have super strength or super abilities, he's just a crazy vengeful man using guns to kill dozens of criminals.

I think if you want to do a story like that it should maybe be the last Punisher story. A story where Frank's actions finally catch up with him.

[j9ac9k]

This is just me, and I'm sure a lot of Punisher fans would disagree, but I think he'd be more interesting if he rationalized the "collateral damage" in his war. He would try not to harm innocents, but he's so determined, that if it happens, he's too closed off to shed a tear, because he thinks killing bad guys is the greater good. And no, that's not heroic, but I personally find him to be a more interesting fictional character when he's not seen as heroic or a "virtuous murderer". I like the idea of challenging that kind of "kill 'em all" wish fulfillment.

[Panic]

I’m not a big Punisher fan, and I find the American gun culture stuff a little disturbing at times, but this is the same old same old: comic readers who are not fans of a particular hero want said hero to become a ‘more interesting character’ by having the hero dirtied-up or humiliated or whatever so the hero’s fans can’t take so much pride in their hero and have to hang their heads in shame. I really think it’s a bit much as I tend to see it as just rivalry and lack of tolerance. By all means lobby for more positive stories for your own favourites, but don’t try to tear down others. It’s just crappy, imo.

I’ve always seen the Punisher as someone who snapped because of personal tragedy and is a blackly comic character, but I know that’s not how his fan base see him and I wouldn’t want the character changed just to validate the feeling of people who are not fans.

[j9ac9k]

I’m not a big Punisher fan, and I find the American gun culture stuff a little disturbing at times, but this is the same old same old: comic readers who are not fans of a particular hero want said hero to become a ‘more interesting character’ by having the hero dirtied-up or humiliated or whatever so the hero’s fans can’t take so much pride in their hero and have to hang their heads in shame. I really think it’s a bit much as I tend to see it as just rivalry and lack of tolerance. By all means lobby for more positive stories for your own favourites, but don’t try to tear down others. It’s just crappy, imo.

I’ve always seen the Punisher as someone who snapped because of personal tragedy and is a blackly comic character, but I know that’s not how his fan base see him and I wouldn’t want the character changed just to validate the feeling of people who are not fans.

I don't know if you're responding directly to me, but I just said what I personally think would be interesting. I'm not trying to make a point or "push" for any change, or make anyone feel bad about liking The Punisher the way he is, or "tearing him down". I've enjoyed many Punisher books with Frank being exactly how he is. (regular Frank, not Frank-enstein or Angel Punisher, etc) Marvel would never actually change him to begin not caring about civilians - that would go against what's been established. It seems everyone's way too sensitive and defensive about Punisher being "ruined" or "torn down" at the very idea of this discussion. This is just a conversation on a CBR forum.

[phonogram12]

You don't see why people would be upset by seeing a character they like being treated as a screw up, a failure, or a villain?

How often do you see anybody make a topic where they say they want more stories where Superman shows up, screws up, and everybody he came to save dies, do you?

Do you see topics where people say they want more stories where Batman just starts beating up innocent people?

As I believe I mentioned earlier, just a year or so ago there was a story where Daredevil accidentally killed a low-level criminal. As one of my favorite character's, I was a bit uneasy with the story at first, but it turned out great as did the stories that followed up with it later. I'm not sure why people are acting like ONE story about The Punisher accidentally killing ONE innocent person would be the end of the character.

Well like you said Punisher is more grounded in the real world. So I think if you did one story with it, it'd be harder to believe that this guy doesn't accidentally kill people often.

Again, like I mentioned in an earlier comment, DD used his mistake as a motivator to become a better DD, which he did. While I'm not a huge fan of the character, I think a story where Frank becomes an even more precise and exact version of The Punisher could be an interesting one.

[marhawkman]

Well like you said Punisher is more grounded in the real world. So I think if you did one story with it, it'd be harder to believe that this guy doesn't accidentally kill people often.

honestly? Being good at handling firearms means you won't miss often. As a soldier Frank would have had "don't shoot bystanders" as part of his combat training. "hit the target" is a standard part of marksmanship.

the real question is if he shot the right person.

[Refrax5]

I’m not a big Punisher fan, and I find the American gun culture stuff a little disturbing at times, but this is the same old same old: comic readers who are not fans of a particular hero want said hero to become a ‘more interesting character’ by having the hero dirtied-up or humiliated or whatever so the hero’s fans can’t take so much pride in their hero and have to hang their heads in shame. I really think it’s a bit much as I tend to see it as just rivalry and lack of tolerance. By all means lobby for more positive stories for your own favourites, but don’t try to tear down others. It’s just crappy, imo.

I’ve always seen the Punisher as someone who snapped because of personal tragedy and is a blackly comic character, but I know that’s not how his fan base see him and I wouldn’t want the character changed just to validate the feeling of people who are not fans.

I am a longtime fan of the character but he isn't a hero and isn't anyone that should be emulated or glorified. You're also ignoring the fact that his entire early appearances are based on him attempting to kill heroes because he was tricked.

Castle is a great character, but his view on the world should never be lionized. Showing the inevitable consequences of his behavior and not sanitizing it is just honest writing.

This is more true of the more modern depictions of Castle, where he's completely merciless and wiping people out indiscriminately. Castle in the 80s and early 90s was a lot more restrained in his methods and had a sense of honor (he refused to shoot someone in the back once). But this guy was created to raise uncomfortable questions. Acting like it's wrong for Marvel to make their quasi-facsitic mass murderer look bad seems very goofy to me. Castle has always been a bad guy.

[The Cool Thatguy]

honestly? Being good at handling firearms means you won't miss often. As a soldier Frank would have had "don't shoot bystanders" as part of his combat training. "hit the target" is a standard part of marksmanship.

the real question is if he shot the right person.

Even trained professionals miss a lot, actually

[chamber-music]

I have read a lot of Punisher comics and generally speaking the character is often strategic with his killing. The Punisher's whole thing is using the tactics and skills he learned in the military on home turf. Frank Castle is depicted as being varying shades of crazy but he is often controlled with he dishes out violence. Even serial killers can have a modus operandi and rules about how they kill. The Punisher isn't perfect and has killed innocent people before, he has also got innocent people killed.

I do find it interesting that logic and principles seem to frequently be brought up with regards to the Punisher. All these characters are fantasy so real world logic doesn't really apply. The Punisher and most of superheroes or anti-heroes would be dead within a week of becoming active if they were 'real'. There would be a lot more civilian battle casualties and Gwen Stacey type civilian deaths if you apply logic to superheroes.

[MichaelC]

I think the Punisher gets more criticism because he's so often involved in stories where he jobs out superheroes, and the whole point of the story is that they are idiots for not adopting Punisher's "ethics" and military mindset. His book is an absolutely vicious critique of more conventional superheroes, so fans of those other characters resent him and wonder why he doesn't get just as harsh a critique.

[Alan2099]

I think the Punisher gets more criticism because he's so often involved in stories where he jobs out superheroes, and the whole point of the story is that they are idiots for not adopting Punisher's "ethics" and military mindset. His book is an absolutely vicious critique of more conventional superheroes, so fans of those other characters resent him and wonder why he doesn't get just as harsh a critique.

I don't know why they would think he doesn't get a harsh critique. Often times when he appears in other books as a guest star, he's treated like a delusional wack-o.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't know why they would think he doesn't get a harsh critique. Often times when he appears in other books as a guest star, he's treated like a delusional wack-o.

Because all they do is yell at him not to kill, to which he usually counters that the villain of the week that they're fighting will only escape to kill again (a problem that exists almost exclusively in comics).

His teamup with Batman against the Joker being the best example.

[ed2962]

Because all they do is yell at him not to kill, to which he usually counters that the villain of the week that they're fighting will only escape to kill again (a problem that exists almost exclusively in comics).

His teamup with Batman against the Joker being the best example.

Oh Gawd...It's been a long time, but I remember that.

Punisher: "Why shouldn't I kill this guy?!"
Batman: "Because...I said so."

[K7P5V]

His team-up with Batman against the Joker being the best example.

Damn. That was Epic (IMHO):