Why do some people want the Punisher to accidentally kill civilians?

[The Cool Thatguy]

I agree that if you did a more realistic interpretation or deconstruction of the Punisher you'll pretty much ruin or end the character. Realistically Punisher would be accidentally killing innocent people left and right or be making horrible mistakes. Most superheroes would. The idea of superheroes hinges on the idea that they are actually super capable. Punisher is so capable that he can fire his bullets and not kill a bus full of random bystanders. Spider-Man and others can beat up supervillains WITHOUT having to kill them because they are super capable. Sure, sometimes the heroes miss up, but the success rate is often 90% successful because if the hero is failing all the time, the comics would be awful.

Where do you take the punisher that's actually interesting and allows room for future stories? How do you "examine" his actions without making him A. Completely evil and unlikable and B. Not make it where he'd logically give up being Punisher after learning he's such an awful person? You have to keep people actually interested in the character. It's a balancing act that can easily dive into contested territory among fans, which is probably why we always get the standard revenge fantasy of Frank Castle.

The problem with this thread is that it's kinda like asking 'When did you stop beating your wife?'.

There are plenty of ways of examining the flaws and pitfalls of Castle's character without him shooting an innocent person.

[The Negative Zone]

The problem with this thread is that it's kinda like asking 'When did you stop beating your wife?'.

There are plenty of ways of examining the flaws and pitfalls of Castle's character without him shooting an innocent person.

Not sure what you mean by your first statement. And what sort of examination do you actually have in mind? Readers already know his life sucks.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Not sure what you mean by your first statement. And what sort of examination do you actually have in mind? Readers already know his life sucks.

The title of the thread asks a leading question, thus altering the debate (perhaps fitting for a right wing reactionary character, really).

Second, focus on the larger impact of hos violence, how it's perceived by others, the damage it does to survivors, etc.

[Triniking1234]

I don't get the wife beating analogy but OP asked why readers want to see stories where Frank Castle hurts civilians. I don't see what's the point of bringing it up now since the character has managed to avoid it 99.9% of the time in his 40+ year history.

[davew128]

But getting back to johnny... most writers hand wave the mere idea of him accidentally hurting someone. In fact, one comic explicitly stated that Johnny has such incredible control he can incinerate someone's clothes... and NOT burn the person.

It was actually referenced in this weeks issue of Fantastic Four...

[K7P5V]

The climax to that same story is DD calling the Punisher's bluff saying something like, "I know you're not really trying to shoot me. You've never killed an innocent before." Punisher stands down and walks away...then DD shoots him in the shoulder.

Great memory. Classic scene (IMHO):

Okay, Fraction, Ennis and who else? I don't think these two writers alone are representative of how every Punisher writer depicts guest stars in his book.

How about Rucka... ?

[GAP]

I realize The Punisher accidentally killing civilians is implausible but what stories explores the consequences of The Punisher's violence?

[Midnight_v]

ITT: People who dislike or hate the punisher. OR Dislike or hate and fear the presumed politics of his FANS.

Desperately want him to kill an innocent so they can have extra justification for their feelings.

and "no thank you". I don't want your real-life insecurities pushing into comics to that extent

Thing that gets me most from all of this is:

Superhumans fighting are MUUUUCH more likely to kill civilians. You can be just that good with a gun, but... THOR THROWING Mjolnir at Graviton or Freaking Juggernaut is MUUUUCH more likely to kill someone in NYC.

I realize The Punisher accidentally killing civilians is implausible but what stories explores the consequences of The Punisher's violence?

Same question but for ever superhero using violence. It ridiculous. Its weird because this thread is in someway the INVERSE of "Punisher Kills the Marvel universes" and its hilarious.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I realize The Punisher accidentally killing civilians is implausible but what stories explores the consequences of The Punisher's violence?

Implausible in terms of writers doing it, or actually happening?

Because there's a vast difference there, lol.

[marhawkman]

ITT: People who dislike or hate the punisher. OR Dislike or hate and fear the presumed politics of his FANS.

Desperately want him to kill an innocent so they can have extra justification for their feelings.

and "no thank you". I don't want your real-life insecurities pushing into comics to that extent

Thing that gets me most from all of this is:

Superhumans fighting are MUUUUCH more likely to kill civilians. You can be just that good with a gun, but... THOR THROWING Mjolnir at Graviton or Freaking Juggernaut is MUUUUCH more likely to kill someone in NYC.

Same question but for ever superhero using violence. It ridiculous. Its weird because this thread is in someway the INVERSE of "Punisher Kills the Marvel universes" and its hilarious.

Yeah, this. There's a whole lot of ethical and safety implications of major superhero fights. this is one of the few things BvS did well. It looked at a fight between Superman and Zod from the PoV of the little guys on the ground. What Punisher does... compared to THAT?!?! It feels petty and nit-picky to worry about if Punisher accidentally hurt someone.

[Refrax5]

ITT: People who dislike or hate the punisher. OR Dislike or hate and fear the presumed politics of his FANS.

Desperately want him to kill an innocent so they can have extra justification for their feelings.

and "no thank you". I don't want your real-life insecurities pushing into comics to that extent

Thing that gets me most from all of this is:

Superhumans fighting are MUUUUCH more likely to kill civilians. You can be just that good with a gun, but... THOR THROWING Mjolnir at Graviton or Freaking Juggernaut is MUUUUCH more likely to kill someone in NYC.

Same question but for ever superhero using violence. It ridiculous. Its weird because this thread is in someway the INVERSE of "Punisher Kills the Marvel universes" and its hilarious.

I say this as a fan of the character, what he does is lionized way too much. A guy who routinely takes it into his own hands to kill people without regards to proof or civil rights or a trial is something that happens in real life (unlike superhero battles) and I feel like having everybody the Punisher kills deserve it kind of reinforces that mentality that extra judicial killings are justifiable.

Also, even as a kid, it was pretty clear to me that Castle isn't meant to be a good guy. He's a great character, but what he does is wrong and it seems silly to me that people want to sanitize that. The character was created to ask uncomfortable questions, so the idea that the real life consequences of that behavior should be ignored seems to be missing the point a bit.

People also forget that he HAS killed civilians, has gotten them killed, has also killed nonviolent criminals, joined a fascist organization, and so many of his stories (including his first appearance) involve him being tricked into trying to murder good guys. It just seems dumb and way-too-convinient when people try to act like this guy hasn't or wouldn't kill innocent people accidentally.

Like I said, I've been reading Punisher for over 30 years. I love him as a character, but he's a monster and trying to defang him by sanitizing his actions is just goofy to me.

[ed2962]

I realize The Punisher accidentally killing civilians is implausible but what stories explores the consequences of The Punisher's violence?

Which consequences though? Besides accidently killing an innocent person, the obvious ones would be going to jail, people coming after him for revenge, him inspiring copycats...over the years there are have been stories where these things have been addressed.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Which consequences though? Besides accidently killing an innocent person, the obvious ones would be going to jail, people coming after him for revenge, him inspiring copycats...over the years there are have been stories where these things have been addressed.

They have, but only in a way which vindicates Castle further.

For example, when the Elite's son is traumatized by his father's murder, Ennis made a point to show the kid as a murderous prick beforehand, so as to make sure there were no sympathy points there.

[The Negative Zone]

They have, but only in a way which vindicates Castle further.

For example, when the Elite's son is traumatized by his father's murder, Ennis made a point to show the kid as a murderous prick beforehand, so as to make sure there were no sympathy points there.

I mean that's the kind of people he kills. Murderous people.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I mean that's the kind of people he kills. Murderous people.

Kinda missing the forest for the trees there, man.

To wit, whenever a story addresses the people traumatized by Punisher's actions, say the son of a criminal brutally murdered, the narrative goes out of the way to depict said grieving relative as already scum. Thus, denying the character the sympathy of the audience