I'm curious what Gunn's take on them would be.
Gates is only credited for five issues.
It's probably another open/shut case of Liefeld and the Harras people plotting/writing from bts.
And another example of New 52 derailment since that was clearly a followup to Brightest Day that was hijacked to allow Liefeld a foot in the door at DC.
I agree. At its core the concept doesn’t hold up. The country isn’t divided between peace loving hippies and war mongering alpha males. But I think Dawn Granger has been a pretty good progression. She isn’t a stereotypical pacifist but a more hopeful embodiment of peace. I think Hank is the biggest problem with Hawk and Dove. He always devolves into a two dimensional ultra douche. That’s why I think the duo has only worked in the modern age with Holly and Dawn. Holly can still be an overly aggressive character but as a woman she’s still an oppressed demographic, so her war stance comes off more punk rock.
What if they were retconned as being heroes in the 60s? With the sliding timeline, the gap between the JSA in WWII and modern heroes gets bigger and bigger with no (or very few) active heroes for decades. I know 5G originally tried to pepper heroes throughout history, but I wasn't a big fan of how they were going to do it from what I saw. And Hawk and Dove don't have super strong ties to the rest of the DCU anyway that it wouldn't create a ton of gaps if they were separated from modern heroes.
Now that sounds like they would make an even better pair to hang out with a Justice League Dark / Shadowpact sort of supernatural group, which tend to have lots of waggly-finger spellcasters and sleuths like Zatanna and Constantine, and not quite so many straight up supernatural brawlers like Marvel's Blade or Elsa Bloodstone. Wonder Woman obviously fills that niche just fine for the JLD, but they aren't the only supernatural heroes / monster-hunters out there, and Diana doesn't have to handle all the punchy fighty stuff.
And the notion that the world needs both the safety and restraint of Order, but also will stagnate and die without the creativity and freedom of Chaos is a neat one. Sort of takes them out of the 'Jedi / Sith' good vs. evil paradigm and suggests that too much Law can be 'bad' and too little Chaos can also be detriment, leading to a cold sterile 'safe' world without freedom, hope or growth.
I rather genderswap Hank than Don. Replacing him with Holly felt like a better play.
The series in the early 90s was good then they ruined Hank. The girl Hawk is a waist. Dawn was an improvement over Don.
A good and interesting analysis of Dawn Granger, I disagree with you on Hank Hall though. I like him precisely because he is an ultra douche. I know it's sort of a right wing stereotype (insensitive, over aggressive, hyper patriot) but I like him for that because it kind of seperates him from the crowd, and makes him somewhat unique in suiper hero world of do gooders.
Just to make it clear, Hank Hall has no relation to my own politics, but rather I just like to have a good variety of different types of heroes.
Their presence in the TITANS tv series didn't help?
The ongoing series by the Kesels was HAWK AND DOVE at their peak. Though I didn't care for the idea that the Hank and Dawn forced romance concept because it doesn't make sense with the brothers being the chosen vessels.
Protected by the Comics Code Authority
YES Capes. YES Masks. YES Secret Identities.
I was never really crazy about the Chaos or Order connection. Just didn't feel like it connected to the characters outside of explaining their extra-ordinary abilities.
I first saw Hawk & Dove in a Superboy reprint with amazing art by Gil Kane. They looked amazing. When I finally was able to read more of that series -- I can see why it failed. It really was aping the concept of violence versus peace -- and made for very awkward reading.
H&D on Titans were incredible! Honestly, they could have carried the series. The guy they pushed the most (Nightwing) wasn't that impressive to me. I didnt' mind Starfire, but she was such a different version of the character from any we've seen previously that she may as well have been a new character.
The 80s H&D series by the Kessels and Leifeld was pretty good. That was before Leifeld's art became a caricature of itself -- and he apparently forgot how to draw. He never could write!