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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan View Post
    Are you asking what happened in the All-Out Avengers book or are you speculating what would happen if such a thing were in the main book?
    Because he does pretty well for himself, including a cool moment where he laughs off a direct haymaker from Blade.
    the latter

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member Jman27's Avatar
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    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

    "My heart half-breaks at how easy it is to lie to him. It breaks all the way when he believes me without question." Felicia Hardy

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by rward777 View Post
    the latter
    Then yes. What you said sounds about right.
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  4. #79
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rward777 View Post
    Which one of the three will rescue Spider-Man first?
    Norman, after Spidey begs for help.

    As cool as it is to see Spidey actually fighting well for once (And the choreography even makes sense), why are they even fighting him? Lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Norman, after Spidey begs for help.



    As cool as it is to see Spidey actually fighting well for once (And the choreography even makes sense), why are they even fighting him? Lol.
    It’s kind of weird. That issue the Avengers were fighting a like reality manipulator. He’d created two separate but real timelines. One in which all of the Avengers had been brainwashed. And another in which Spidey was. So they both believed the other party was brainwashed. I won’t go into too many details in case you’re interested in picking up the issue, but Spidey did a lot of pretty cool things in this issue, from a fighting, tech smarts, and general savvy standpoints. Would love to see this type of competence rear its head in ASM
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  6. #81
    Incredible Member Aura Blaize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Norman, after Spidey begs for help.



    As cool as it is to see Spidey actually fighting well for once (And the choreography even makes sense), why are they even fighting him? Lol.
    They each think the other is mind controlled. The actual issue even throws in a nice twist in the end.

    Honestly it's how I feel Spider-Man should always be written. Not because he essentially punked the Avengers, but because he was taken seriously and, as Black Panther reminded everyone, he's HIGHLY intelligent.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aura Blaize View Post
    They each think the other is mind controlled. The actual issue even throws in a nice twist in the end.

    Honestly it's how I feel Spider-Man should always be written. Not because he essentially punked the Avengers, but because he was taken seriously and, as Black Panther reminded everyone, he's HIGHLY intelligent.
    Massively agree. I just want Spider-Man and his abilities to be taken seriously. When you mix super strength, speed, agility, and reflexes with his level of smarts, he should be a force to be reckoned with against almost anyone. He can still make jokes if you need comic relief, but he himself is not a joke. So tired of hacky writing that doesn’t realize that.
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  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Norman, after Spidey begs for help.



    As cool as it is to see Spidey actually fighting well for once (And the choreography even makes sense), why are they even fighting him? Lol.
    peter thinks the avengers are mind control the avengers think peter is mind control and peter has a certain device that both groups need
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

    "My heart half-breaks at how easy it is to lie to him. It breaks all the way when he believes me without question." Felicia Hardy

  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan View Post
    It’s kind of weird. That issue the Avengers were fighting a like reality manipulator. He’d created two separate but real timelines. One in which all of the Avengers had been brainwashed. And another in which Spidey was. So they both believed the other party was brainwashed. I won’t go into too many details in case you’re interested in picking up the issue, but Spidey did a lot of pretty cool things in this issue, from a fighting, tech smarts, and general savvy standpoints. Would love to see this type of competence rear its head in ASM
    Hm... I did hear that the writer had Spidey being annoying in an early issue, so it's kinda nice if he at least gets recognized in competence lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aura Blaize View Post
    They each think the other is mind controlled. The actual issue even throws in a nice twist in the end.

    Honestly it's how I feel Spider-Man should always be written. Not because he essentially punked the Avengers, but because he was taken seriously and, as Black Panther reminded everyone, he's HIGHLY intelligent.
    Yeah, while I don't agree when fans want Spidey to be too competent (I'll always consider his victory against Firelord to pure garbage), he really shouldn't be the exact opposite, characters need positive things going on in their lifes, by having good things happen, the bad things are enhanced, and by having bad things happen, the good things are enhanced, why so many fail at seeing this is beyond me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan View Post
    Massively agree. I just want Spider-Man and his abilities to be taken seriously. When you mix super strength, speed, agility, and reflexes with his level of smarts, he should be a force to be reckoned with against almost anyone. He can still make jokes if you need comic relief, but he himself is not a joke. So tired of hacky writing that doesn’t realize that.
    A problem with writing is when a writer only understands the superficial idea of a setting or character, but doesn't know how it's implemented.

    At it's worst Spidey is an annoying douchebag who makes jokes and has a life so sad that it can be comparable with Daredevil's, and while him being annoying and having drama going on in his life are parts of Spider-Man, they're just that, parts of it, he has situations where he's serius, gets victories or bittersweet victories, and while he may get slapped around in silly ways, he also defeats powerful enemies with his smarts.

    So, essentially, it's about balance, there's good things that happen in his life, and bad things, and too many writers don't get this...
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  10. #85
    Incredible Member Aura Blaize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan View Post
    Massively agree. I just want Spider-Man and his abilities to be taken seriously. When you mix super strength, speed, agility, and reflexes with his level of smarts, he should be a force to be reckoned with against almost anyone. He can still make jokes if you need comic relief, but he himself is not a joke. So tired of hacky writing that doesn’t realize that.
    I'm starting to see this depiction come up in Spider-Man media a little more lately. This issue. Deadly Neighborhood Spider-Man. Hell even in the Midnight Suns game, he's treated like a hero with Blade outright saying "Don't let the costume fool you, Spider-Man is no joke." So maybe the hacky writing is on the way out....but then Wells' run exists so....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Hm... I did hear that the writer had Spidey being annoying in an early issue, so it's kinda nice if he at least gets recognized in competence lol.
    Yeah, while I don't agree when fans want Spidey to be too competent (I'll always consider his victory against Firelord to pure garbage), he really shouldn't be the exact opposite, characters need positive things going on in their lifes, by having good things happen, the bad things are enhanced, and by having bad things happen, the good things are enhanced, why so many fail at seeing this is beyond me...
    Oh absolutely agree. There's competence and then there's absurdity. I personally feel that when he fought against Colossus and Magik was a better example of what they were trying to do with Firelord.


    A problem with writing is when a writer only understands the superficial idea of a setting or character, but doesn't know how it's implemented.

    At it's worst Spidey is an annoying douchebag who makes jokes and has a life so sad that it can be comparable with Daredevil's, and while him being annoying and having drama going on in his life are parts of Spider-Man, they're just that, parts of it, he has situations where he's serius, gets victories or bittersweet victories, and while he may get slapped around in silly ways, he also defeats powerful enemies with his smarts.

    So, essentially, it's about balance, there's good things that happen in his life, and bad things, and too many writers don't get this...

    This. I really don't get why they don't get this. We don't want a Spider-Man where everything in his life is perfect. That would get too boring. We're fine with him struggling sometimes. But we also want to seem him triumph over that struggle. And "struggle" doesn't have to mean "down on his luck, almost hobo".
    Last edited by Aura Blaize; 01-26-2023 at 03:20 PM.

  11. #86
    Incredible Member Daibhidh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I'll always consider his victory against Firelord to pure garbage
    People talk about his victory against Firelord as if it was pure endurance and dodging against a guy who could shake off an exploding petrol station and a collapsed skyscraper.
    It works rather better if you think of it as the story of how Peter knew where to find a skyscraper that could be collapsed and a petrol station that he could blow up, and only then had enough speed and endurance to be able to finish Firelord off after those two events had knocked off most of Firelord's hit points. Basically, it should be thought of as Peter using his smarts and knowledge of New York to outfight someone who is otherwise outside his weight class.
    Petrus Maria Johannaque sunt nubendi

  12. #87
    Incredible Member Daibhidh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aura Blaize View Post
    And "struggle" doesn't have to mean "down on his luck, almost hobo".
    Yes. Peter in the seventies and eighties wasn't unusually down on his luck for someone of his generation, social background, and career. He was struggling for cash because most people in his civilian circumstances struggle for cash now and then.
    Petrus Maria Johannaque sunt nubendi

  13. #88
    Incredible Member SplinteringHeart's Avatar
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    Cool

    Just as an aside from all the nonsense going on in ASM, I really enjoyed All Out #5..for a decent portrayal of Spidey, the Spidey we know he should be...he was strong, fast, funny and clever...he had to take on the Avengers, and he was trying to help, do the right thing....nice!

  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aura Blaize View Post
    I'm starting to see this depiction come up in Spider-Man media a little more lately. This issue. Deadly Neighborhood Spider-Man. Hell even in the Midnight Suns game, he's treated like a hero with Blade outright saying "Don't let the costume fool you, Spider-Man is no joke." So maybe the hacky writing is on the way out....but then Wells' run exists so....
    Honestly, media outside of comics tend to respect Spidey more, I think the biggest exception would be the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, and I think even later seasons rectified this a bit.

    The problem is hardly how people write Spidey in general in other media, it's how the comics specifically do, they're the ones that don't like respecting him.

    Oh absolutely agree. There's competence and then there's absurdity. I personally feel that when he fought against Colossus and Magik was a better example of what they were trying to do with Firelord.
    His battle against Juggernaut is another example, though personally I prefer the way he defeated Thunderball:







    (ASM#248).

    Funnily enough, this is written by Stern, same guy who wrote "Nothing stops Juggernaut".

    Although it's worth pointing out that AvX's way of having him defeating Phoenix powered Colossus and Magik is very different from the rest, the ways Spidey defeats people way above his level are kinda formulaic (Gets outmactched, keeps trying, eventually he finds something strong enough, or a weak point, that can defeat that opponent) so AvX's way of doing so with him tricking Colossus and Magik into defeating each other is new by his standards, and that's cool.

    This. I really don't get why they don't get this. We don't want a Spider-Man where everything in his life is perfect. That would get too boring. We're fine with him struggling sometimes. But we also want to seem him triumph over that struggle. And "struggle" doesn't have to mean "down on his luck, almost hobo".
    And it's fine for him to not triumph over every struggle too, he just can't lose every time, as much as he can't win every time.

    And even if his life is going to have more struggle than usual, he shouldn't be just a depressed sad sack who does nothing about it, trying and failing means the character at least tried lol.

    Hell, even if he's going to struggle more than usual, that still shouldn't mean he can't have happy moments, if a story gets too dark, the audience gets used to it, and that makes the sad moments less impactful, 'cause there's little point in feeling bad for Spidey failing to save a kitten when just a few issues ago he failed to stop a train from hitting a kitten orphanage, and like I said, dark moments and light hearted moments enhance each other, and while darker stories are an easy bait to make the readers sympathize with the character quickly, it's really not the only thing that should be going on with them, a character pure defined by tragedy is just as one dimensional as the usual silver age super-hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daibhidh View Post
    People talk about his victory against Firelord as if it was pure endurance and dodging against a guy who could shake off an exploding petrol station and a collapsed skyscraper.
    It works rather better if you think of it as the story of how Peter knew where to find a skyscraper that could be collapsed and a petrol station that he could blow up, and only then had enough speed and endurance to be able to finish Firelord off after those two events had knocked off most of Firelord's hit points. Basically, it should be thought of as Peter using his smarts and knowledge of New York to outfight someone who is otherwise outside his weight class.
    If that were the case I'd be okay with it, but nothing on the characters' thoughts and actions indicate Firelord is getting tired at all, and to make matters worse, an earlier pages has Spidey mentioning that he himself is the one getting tired from all of this running around:

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...7555/image.png

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...55/unknown.png

    (ASM#270).

    I see what DeFalco was going for, "Spidey doesn't give up", he basically spells it out at the end, but I feel like some characters are too much for someone on Spidey's level, and Firelord stalemated against someone like Thor, and he was used to show how powerful Jean is after her Phoenix upgrades by having them briefly fight and be around the same level, those things mean he's way above Spidey, and even at half power, Spidey shouldn't be winning that fight by hitting him really hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daibhidh View Post
    Yes. Peter in the seventies and eighties wasn't unusually down on his luck for someone of his generation, social background, and career. He was struggling for cash because most people in his civilian circumstances struggle for cash now and then.
    His biggest struggles in those eras were with love interests and missing classes, both caused by being Spider-Man, and eventually he even decided to drop out, so yeah, he didn't have it too bad, specially compared to now lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by SplinteringHeart View Post
    Just as an aside from all the nonsense going on in ASM, I really enjoyed All Out #5..for a decent portrayal of Spidey, the Spidey we know he should be...he was strong, fast, funny and clever...he had to take on the Avengers, and he was trying to help, do the right thing....nice!
    Reminds me that Black Panther is apparently being written badly on his own comics, while in Aaron's Avengers he's much better, and before that, we had Wonder Woman being written poorly in her own comics, but much better in Justice League Dark.

    It so bizarre when a character is written better in a random team comic instead of their own fucking comic lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainUniverse View Post
    This...this is why you aren't supposed to do drugs, kids.



    Drugs. Not even once.
    Rek-Rap is the best thing to come out of this event.
    All I wanted was to be unconditionally loved while never having to work on my flaws. Is that so much to ask?

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