Polaris/Lorna Dane: Queen of Mutants/Mistress of Magnetism Appreciation 2023

[Soulsword323]

This thread just kills me sometimes. Can we PLEASE stop hating Polaris in the Polaris thread?

Every time she shows up in a book, a wave of Lorna "fans" have to pick it apart and talk about why it's a bad portrayal and nothing is ever done right with her. Every time a discussion starts, it devolves into why so-and-so's run was trash, and what everyone hates about her characterization in whatever scenarios. It sounds like you people hate Polaris more than you love her. And maybe you do and you're just confused. Because if you hate more of her portrayals than you enjoy... maybe you just happened to like a couple of issues the character was in, and should put your energy on characters you actually enjoy reading under modern writers.

Instead of gatekeeping this character and constantly talking about what not to do (a list that grows exponentially everyday in here...), how about highlighting what you DO like for a freaking change, outside of the same three measly issues that inevitably get brought up when people talk about a positive portrayal of her. Right now, it just feels like you all hate her, and I'm sick of reading about it from people with her as their avatar.

Just wanted to let you know that I agree with you, and I understand where you're coming from. I'm all for criticizing, and calling out bad ideas and interpretations of Lorna, but the lengths some go to do this is absurd. It gets tiresome to come here and post anything sometimes, because if you don't see things the same way, then you're part of the problem. It's big difference than just being negative.

Anyways, I'm hoping that we'll get some decent Lorna content soon. It seems like Duggan has something up his sleeve, and I hope that we'll see that sooner rather than later.

Personally hoping for Polaris to have a big moment taking down an Orchis base or something. Maybe Lorna will destroy the Sentinel City? It could be a nice contrast to what happened to Lorna on Genosha.

[kcekada]

Claremont's lack of interest in Lorna always perplexed me... He's talked about some characters he doesn't like (Dazzler being the main one) but he's never spoken negatively about Lorna either, yet it's clear he didn't value her as a character.

I think he only valued her as a plot point, but didn't dislike the character. After all, he came up with the ending of G.S. X-Men #1 which was a pivotal Polaris moment, and he could have just left Lorna and Alex in New Mexico/off camera, but brought them back a few issues later -- allowing Polaris to fly (even Magneto had not yet really flown). But Claremont being Claremont, the resolution to their mind-control happened off panel -- and the two disappeared again. But they did appear in Marvel Team-Up -- unfortunately, he used Thor for the second part instead of Polaris. Then they were gone again until we got the Proteus/Muir Island stuff. I had big expectations, but they may as well not even been in that story. Claremont was called to task in the letter pages for how little he used Lorna in that story -- especially against a villain whose weakness was metal.

Re: Lorna as an anti-hero. I'd rather not. She's been used as an opponent to often, and that type of role wouldn't benefit her with people who already don't care about her. I'd be okay with her on another team who had different views from the X-Men, but not as antagonists.

Re: Dazzler. Wasn't aware he didn't like her. I quite liked her first appearance as written by him -- she was more streetwise than she would be in her own series. But that era where she joins the team and they are in the outback was never great, IMHO.

[jmc247]

Re: Lorna as an anti-hero. I'd rather not. She's been used as an opponent to often, and that type of role wouldn't benefit her with people who already don't care about her. I'd be okay with her on another team who had different views from the X-Men, but not as antagonists.

That is not what anti-hero means. An anti-hero is a hero with less then saintly characteristics like the Punisher, some versions of Wolverine, or really Lorna every so often in the comics. The last time for her being Devil's Reign when Jean stops her from fighting with the gloves off or a few seconds of her recent space arc when she talked about killing Brood.

An anti-villain is an antagonist with heroic characteristics like 1990s Magneto or Lorna in her first 1960s storyline when she was on the other side of the X-Men though wished she wasn't.

Also, I have to disagree Lorna has been used an opponent often. Lorna other than in her first storyline never fought against the X-Men as a team. Mind control Lorna isn't Lorna and Marvel's attempt to make that work over and over again as a pathos and key for making Lorna seem interesting has failed utterly.

Claremont other then the middle of her Malice arc depicted Lorna as straight possessed. He decided to try to sell it was really a corruption story at that point, but he waited too long and didn’t put the effort in so few bought the notion.

Corruption stories work in pitting heroes against each other. Ideological differences stories really work in pitting characters against each other.

Mind control? LOL no. Its garbage. What I will say for fights between characters is they have to be built up to. They can't be forced as we saw between Lorna and Magneto in Trial of Magneto or the damage is pretty far reaching. But, an actual conflict that is wisely built up over real issues and explodes. That is golden for characters and the story in general. Hard on fans who love them, but amazing for characters in terms of popularity.

It's never happened with Lorna in the comics. The dispute between Lorna and Xavier and Lorna and Logan during Austen's run was probably the most effort to build up a logical disagreement between Lorna and another character that can't be considered romantic or family squabbles.

[kcekada]

That is not what anti-hero means...

Yes, I am aware.

I may have misinterpreted the follow up in which it seemed someone was suggesting Lorna would be more or less ostracized from the X-Men. Still, anti-hero -- not a fan of the idea as an ongoing concept, though I don't mind occasional moments where a character does cross a line in the heat of the moment.

Have to admit, though, that at the end-of-the-day, I have little use for current X-Men or even current Marvel, so not sure I have anything to add of value here. And whatever is done in film is likely to diminish my interest in the franchise and comic books even more -- being that editorial tries to create a synergy between the two mediums.

[GoingGreen]

Just wanted to let you know that I agree with you, and I understand where you're coming from. I'm all for criticizing, and calling out bad ideas and interpretations of Lorna, but the lengths some go to do this is absurd. It gets tiresome to come here and post anything sometimes, because if you don't see things the same way, then you're part of the problem. It's big difference than just being negative.

Anyways, I'm hoping that we'll get some decent Lorna content soon. It seems like Duggan has something up his sleeve, and I hope that we'll see that sooner rather than later.

Personally hoping for Polaris to have a big moment taking down an Orchis base or something. Maybe Lorna will destroy the Sentinel City? It could be a nice contrast to what happened to Lorna on Genosha.

Thank you for taking a moment to understand my actual message, I do appreciate it. I just want to know what these people DO like about her, because all I keep seeing is what they don't like about her, or what they'd rather see. I have no idea what issues / series in which they believe she was portrayed WELL, aside from the universally accepted same 3 issues... which leaves me with "well what DO you like?!"

I, of course, agree with a lot of the criticism, but why must this thread be as negative as it is? Why do we enter a new project with skeptical eyes and not give new writers a chance? I'm not asking anyone to be positive about something they dislike, I'm asking them to tell me what they DO like about her. Let's highlight that for a change of pace.

And to Magnetic, I'm not being negative about any of you personally or as people, just some constant behaviors that make this thread such a bummer.

[Angleman70]

Thank you for taking a moment to understand my actual message, I do appreciate it. I just want to know what these people DO like about her, because all I keep seeing is what they don't like about her, or what they'd rather see. I have no idea what issues / series in which they believe she was portrayed WELL, aside from the universally accepted same 3 issues... which leaves me with "well what DO you like?!"

I, of course, agree with a lot of the criticism, but why must this thread be as negative as it is? Why do we enter a new project with skeptical eyes and not give new writers a chance? I'm not asking anyone to be positive about something they dislike, I'm asking them to tell me what they DO like about her. Let's highlight that for a change of pace.

And to Magnetic, I'm not being negative about any of you personally or as people, just some constant behaviors that make this thread such a bummer.

I agree that some of us get real negative on here. I’m barely on this forum but I too have added negativity to it. I believe it comes down to frustration and for me at least, dissatisfaction/disappointment. We all want to see this character of ours here and see her shine yet we mostly get the same crumbs. As I said in my last post, the lack of attention is obvious. As salarta mentioned before, Lorna is the second woman and the 6th member to have joined the X-men. Yet, it’s Storm and those women after her who get all the spotlight.

We all have our favorite characters and so do those who write for them too. If we don’t like a character, the same can be said to the writers and editors. I’m suspicious that certain powers that be don’t like Lorna. That is why my frustration festers.

[Krakoa]

Just a thought - feel free to ignore: Is it that hard to ignore the views you disagree with instead of rallying the troops against the persons with those views? Everyone likes Polaris for many reasons - and many are not ever going to agree all the time.

Usually, it is not at all hard to do that. With Polaris, it's hard as fuck. It is impossible to have a single conversation about Polaris anywhere on this entire website without the usual suspects coming in with a six paragraph essay on Genosha and derailing the discussion. It's so tiresome for people who actually want to enjoy comics about Polaris that are coming out.

[GoingGreen]

I agree that some of us get real negative on here. I’m barely on this forum but I too have added negativity to it. I believe it comes down to frustration and for me at least, dissatisfaction/disappointment. We all want to see this character of ours here and see her shine yet we mostly get the same crumbs. As I said in my last post, the lack of attention is obvious. As salarta mentioned before, Lorna is the second woman and the 6th member to have joined the X-men. Yet, it’s Storm and those women after her who get all the spotlight.

We all have our favorite characters and so do those who write for them too. If we don’t like a character, the same can be said to the writers and editors. I’m suspicious that certain powers that be don’t like Lorna. That is why my frustration festers.

I REALLY appreciate that acknowledgement and self-awareness. I haven't seen a lot of your posts, so I can't agree or disagree, but I appreciate that you're at least willing to admit that an issue is present and you might have contributed. I'm sure I'VE contributed.

What I'd really love to do is create a less toxic environment around here. Creators come here all the time. I used to write fanfiction and nerd out with some of them, I KNOW they come here. Working artists used to do covers for us. And the overwhelming toxicity around Polaris specifically all across these forums is going to keep those same creators running for the hills. MAYBE, JUUUUST MAYBE the toxicity here... contributes to why we only get crumbs.

I only lurked here for years and years, because I just could not stand reading the same thing over and over filled with this insane vitriol. And to Salarta, whom I'd like to acknowledge is only one person contributing to this and I am not equating the wave of it to them/you: no, it's not absurd to read your posts and think you hate her. Because all you talk about is those times you hated her portrayal. I can't remember the last time I skimmed through a few pages of this thread and saw you post about a Polaris run you actually liked.

To me, it feels like a lot of you like an idea you have in mind of Polaris, as opposed to the Polaris that is actually canonically written on page. That's what I'm trying to explain here. If you don't like SO MUCH about this character's publication history... are you sure you actually like this character? Show me! I am actively asking to hear about it.

[whitecrown]

I think he only valued her as a plot point, but didn't dislike the character. After all, he came up with the ending of G.S. X-Men #1 which was a pivotal Polaris moment, and he could have just left Lorna and Alex in New Mexico/off camera, but brought them back a few issues later -- allowing Polaris to fly (even Magneto had not yet really flown). But Claremont being Claremont, the resolution to their mind-control happened off panel -- and the two disappeared again. But they did appear in Marvel Team-Up -- unfortunately, he used Thor for the second part instead of Polaris. Then they were gone again until we got the Proteus/Muir Island stuff. I had big expectations, but they may as well not even been in that story. Claremont was called to task in the letter pages for how little he used Lorna in that story -- especially against a villain whose weakness was metal.

Re: Lorna as an anti-hero. I'd rather not. She's been used as an opponent to often, and that type of role wouldn't benefit her with people who already don't care about her. I'd be okay with her on another team who had different views from the X-Men, but not as antagonists.

Re: Dazzler. Wasn't aware he didn't like her. I quite liked her first appearance as written by him -- she was more streetwise than she would be in her own series. But that era where she joins the team and they are in the outback was never great, IMHO.

Claremont didn't have any involvement in GSXM #1 if I'm correct. He came onto UXM with #94 and even then, he was scripting but not plotting which is why he couldn't do anything about Thunderbird's death or Jean leaving the team, since both of those things were what he was unhappy with. It was too late to save Thunderbird but a few issues later, he could bring Jean back. That means Lorna's signature move in GSXM #1 can't be attributed to Claremont. You're right that he did give her the codename and allowed her to finally fly, but even that was only when she was a villain and needed to be credible enough as a threat to fight the X-Men. Based on how little he used her as a substitute X-Man (in the Proteus Saga or the Arcade/Doom story), I wouldn't be surprised if Lorna had never shown flight if he hadn't made her a brainwashed antagonist first. I'm glad somebody spoke up in the letters pages for how Lorna was mishandled in the Proteus Saga because she's really just there but does nothing else.

By anti-hero, I think most of us mean we'd like to see her more in the vein of Wolverine, someone whose goals and beliefs don't completely align with the rest of the X-Men and has a darker side. I wouldn't mind villain but only if she was treated like an A-List villain and major adversary, not some flunky. I don't like the idea of her being completely villainized though because it's very easy to get there from portraying her as unstable or crazy and not being able to control her powers.

In a recent interview, Claremont was asked about one thing he'd change in his run, and he said Dazzler. Byrne and Claremont were both forced to use her in TDPS because she was a Jim Shooter creation which he mandated on them. Claremont liked the original concept of her based on Grace Jones, not the whitewashed version that came afterward. But like you, I really like Dazzler in TDPS in her first appearance. Claremont wrote her as having been around the block, very street smart and rough and tumble. Unfortunately, that characterization never showed up again, not in her solo series and not in UXM when she became a regular. Claremont wrote her a selfish bimbo with the weakest will of all the X-Men. Originally he planned on killing her off but he was convinced last minute to spare her which is why he wrote her out instead. Another example of Claremont not liking Dazzler much is a story I read on these forums where a Dazzler fan approached him and when asked by CC who their fav X-Man was, they said Dazzler. CC looked shocked and confused.

[whitecrown]

What I'd really love to do is create a less toxic environment around here. Creators come here all the time. I used to write fanfiction and nerd out with some of them, I KNOW they come here. Working artists used to do covers for us. And the overwhelming toxicity around Polaris specifically all across these forums is going to keep those same creators running for the hills. MAYBE, JUUUUST MAYBE the toxicity here... contributes to why we only get crumbs.

I'm sorry but this is ludicrous. So now all the ill treatment of Lorna isn't the fault of the writers and editors at Marvel, it's the fault of her fans? The same fans who are the only ones who uplift her and champion her when there has been hard proof posted here from the Marvel creators that they really don't care for Lorna or have any enthusiasm for her? You're telling me that for the last two decades, everytime they made official art of the X-Women, like in variant covers, the fact that Lorna was pretty much 99% always excluded (and I can't think of the 1% of the time she was included if I'm being honest) is because of her fans speaking about how badly she's treated in this thread?

Marvel doesn't need any more excuse to abuse and misuse her, certainly not from coming to visit this thread. The fact that a fake blonde who literally slept her way into the X-Men to the top of their leadership is treated like a fan favorite and a premiere member of the team, and had retcon after retcon to try and insert her into the X-Men's classic history which she was not a part of except as a villain, but Lorna Dane as the second X-Woman has never received even an iota of respect or a simple portrayal on any X-Men covers showcasing their history, tells me all I need to know about what they really feel about Lorna. Most of Marvel is still very male-oriented which is why characters that appeal to the male gaze like the fake blonde and Kwannon are everywhere whereas characters like Lorna and now Betsy Braddock are snubbed and treated like C-Listers because male writers and editors do not get any cheap thrills from writing them and seeing artwork exploit their bodies and skimpy outfits.

I can understand your frustration with the lack of positivity in the Lorna thread, but seriously, going as far as blaming her fans for this state rather than the people who create the situation in the first place is uncalled for. I was deeply touched by some of the posts I've read from some of these fans that I imagine you're trying to call out and how much she means to them as a genocide survivor or spokeswoman for mental health. Emma Dumont's posts about abuse she's received in her family and how playing Lorna has helped her become stronger and survive, resonated with a lot of Lorna fans, so I will never consider the possibility that it's these people who are to blame.

[kcekada]

Claremont didn't have any involvement in GSXM #1 if I'm correct. He came onto UXM with #94 and even then, he was scripting but not plotting which is why he couldn't do anything about Thunderbird's death or Jean leaving the team, since both of those things were what he was unhappy with.

No. I'm certain he suggested the means of disposing Krakoa. Other than that, I don't think he was much involved. He must have known he would be writing the series, so I can see how he would have been involved in story discussions.

CBR actually published an article that addressed a fan's inquiry if it was appropriate to ask Claremont to autograph G.S. X-Men #1. This is a quote from Claremont published in 'The X-Men Companion'.

Len and Dave Cockrum were evolving the new X-Men concept. And they'd be sitting in Len's office... plotting it. I would be sitting there just outside proofreading. I'd wander in and say, 'Can I listen?' and they'd say 'Sure.' They'd evolved the whole first issue of Giant-Size except the ending. They needed a way to get rid of Krakoa utilizing the powers of the X-Men. I was thinking about it and I thought, well, we've got Lorna Dane, who has since become Polaris, here, and her power is magnetism, so why don't you just have her slice across the magnetic lines of force, the gravimetric lines of force? And then the speed of the Earth's rotation on its axis would just squirt it up and away it would go. In a sense Krakoa would stay in place while the Earth just rotated around its axis and revolved around the sun away from it. And off he goes into the wild blue yonder. It would be like taking a bar of soap and watching it go Pfffttt! right the air. . Len thought it was a great idea and Dave came up with the visuals and that was that."

[Krakoa]

I'm sorry but this is ludicrous. So now all the ill treatment of Lorna isn't the fault of the writers and editors at Marvel, it's the fault of her fans? The same fans who are the only ones who uplift her and champion her when there has been hard proof posted here from the Marvel creators that they really don't care for Lorna or have any enthusiasm for her? You're telling me that for the last two decades, everytime they made official art of the X-Women, like in variant covers, the fact that Lorna was pretty much 99% always excluded (and I can't think of the 1% of the time she was included if I'm being honest) is because of her fans speaking about how badly she's treated in this thread?

Marvel doesn't need any more excuse to abuse and misuse her, certainly not from coming to visit this thread. The fact that a fake blonde who literally slept her way into the X-Men to the top of their leadership is treated like a fan favorite and a premiere member of the team, and had retcon after retcon to try and insert her into the X-Men's classic history which she was not a part of except as a villain, but Lorna Dane as the second X-Woman has never received even an iota of respect or a simple portrayal on any X-Men covers showcasing their history, tells me all I need to know about what they really feel about Lorna. Most of Marvel is still very male-oriented which is why characters that appeal to the male gaze like the fake blonde and Kwannon are everywhere whereas characters like Lorna and now Betsy Braddock are snubbed and treated like C-Listers because male writers and editors do not get any cheap thrills from writing them and seeing artwork exploit their bodies and skimpy outfits.

I can understand your frustration with the lack of positivity in the Lorna thread, but seriously, going as far as blaming her fans for this state rather than the people who create the situation in the first place is uncalled for. I was deeply touched by some of the posts I've read from some of these fans that I imagine you're trying to call out and how much she means to them as a genocide survivor or spokeswoman for mental health. Emma Dumont's posts about abuse she's received in her family and how playing Lorna has helped her become stronger and survive, resonated with a lot of Lorna fans, so I will never consider the possibility that it's these people who are to blame.

She’s a fictional character! She is not being abused. There is no conspiracy. No one has posted “proof”.

Perhaps she is not getting included in things because many of her “fans” boycott every appearance she has.

[salarta]

She’s a fictional character! She is not being abused. There is no conspiracy. No one has posted “proof”.

Perhaps she is not getting included in things because many of her “fans” boycott every appearance she has.

1. Apparently you haven't been around enough, because I recently reiterated that I paid for the $100 level of Marvel Unlimited back when doing so came with the X-Men #1 variant cover of Lorna. I also bought and read both physical and digital copies of Duggan's X-Men run with her in it until X-Men #5, and a digital copy of her issue of Devil's Reign. And if you had paid attention and been around long enough, you would know I bought every issue of All-New X-Factor, every issue of the Magneto solo, X-Men Blue from Lorna's appearance until #15, as well as various other appearances. Also the various video games she's been in that I've played and spoken positively of (and in the case of Marvel Puzzle Quest, paid money into). Refusing to buy stuff that's either bad work or has bad ulterior motives to them does not mean buying nothing.
2. Here's the proof for you when it comes to White, since you basically asked for me to post it.
3. The good impact of the character on people can't be understated, and Marvel not having any respect for that similarly can't be understated.
4. Just to make sure this is clear as long as I'm posting, I don't have any issues with Emma Frost.

[Mercury]

...I just want to know what these people DO like about her, because all I keep seeing is what they don't like about her, or what they'd rather see. I have no idea what issues / series in which they believe she was portrayed WELL, aside from the universally accepted same 3 issues... which leaves me with "well what DO you like?!"...

I haven't kept up with the discussion here since I last posted weeks ago, but I just read this and wanted to tell you that you made me feel seen and heard regarding my sentiments about some Jean fans, lol. I'm glad to know I'm not alone!

Lorna will more than likely appear in X-Men, soon, and is going to continue thriving.

[GoingGreen]

I'm sorry but this is ludicrous. So now all the ill treatment of Lorna isn't the fault of the writers and editors at Marvel, it's the fault of her fans? The same fans who are the only ones who uplift her and champion her when there has been hard proof posted here from the Marvel creators that they really don't care for Lorna or have any enthusiasm for her? You're telling me that for the last two decades, everytime they made official art of the X-Women, like in variant covers, the fact that Lorna was pretty much 99% always excluded (and I can't think of the 1% of the time she was included if I'm being honest) is because of her fans speaking about how badly she's treated in this thread?
[...]
I can understand your frustration with the lack of positivity in the Lorna thread, but seriously, going as far as blaming her fans for this state rather than the people who create the situation in the first place is uncalled for. I was deeply touched by some of the posts I've read from some of these fans that I imagine you're trying to call out and how much she means to them as a genocide survivor or spokeswoman for mental health. Emma Dumont's posts about abuse she's received in her family and how playing Lorna has helped her become stronger and survive, resonated with a lot of Lorna fans, so I will never consider the possibility that it's these people who are to blame.

I appreciate your response. However, nah, I clearly said "contributed", and I was clearly talking about certain behaviors, not passion or love for a character, but vitriol to certain people pouring their creative talents into something just to be torn down because a fan of a character has personal rules writers must adhere to in order to be determined, at best, adequate. Writers having no desire to write her, and editors wanting to write the same 5 characters... those are also absolutely contributing factors. Writers and creators not knowing the character well = contributing factors.

But in my posts, I'm only highlighting one contributing factor that we fans can have some control over.

I hope that helps you understand the multi-dimensions of what I'm saying.

She’s a fictional character! She is not being abused. There is no conspiracy. No one has posted “proof”.

Perhaps she is not getting included in things because many of her “fans” boycott every appearance she has.

Agreed, I think this is a massive contributing factor.

1. Here's the proof for you when it comes to White, since you basically asked for me to post it.

I appreciate all the research you do, but the post in this blog - I'm struggling to see the proof you're talking about. If you LOOK for ill will in someone or if you LOOK for problems in something, you can always find it. And that's what this blog post felt like. Calling him names like that... I mean, if he saw that, how more motivated is he to mandate Polaris? That twitter thread, he sounded pretty rational - though I didn't see what he was responding to, so we're missing a liiiittle context. But think on PAD's portrayal of Polaris, which is pretty polarizing, and if you recall, he wasn't happy about inheriting that X-Factor team in the 90s, and yet that run is usually regarded highly.

I haven't kept up with the discussion here since I last posted weeks ago, but I just read this and wanted to tell you that you made me feel seen and heard regarding my sentiments about some Jean fans, lol. I'm glad to know I'm not alone!

Lorna will more than likely appear in X-Men, soon, and is going to continue thriving.

Thirty, Flirty, and Thriving! All the love, Mercury!