Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2023

[Johnny]

I swear, I'm going to get crazy waiting for the next issue to come out!!!

When this started, they told us that, as much as we would get mad now, we would be satidfied in the end. That better be true, or I swear, a Hulkverine would be a child compared with my anger.

I've been particularly upset about all this, way more than I usually tend to be about comics. Because at this point even when you're fully aware it's just comics being comics and dumb **** happens in comics all the damn time, there's something about hurting this particular couple that has always rubbed me the wrong way and I can't stand seeing them being ran through the mud like this. I don't even need them to be together, but seeing both their individual characters and their relationship disgraced like that isn't something I can brush off that easily.

[Ursalink]

I've been particularly upset about all this, way more than I usually tend to be about comics. Because at this point even when you're fully aware it's just comics being comics and dumb **** happens in comics all the damn time, there's something about hurting this particular couple that has always rubbed me the wrong way and I can't stand seeing them being ran through the mud like this. I don't even need them to be together, but seeing both their individual characters and their relationship disgraced like that isn't something I can brush off that easily.

You took the words out of my head, pal.

The reason because we hate so much how Marvel treat Peter and Mary Jane is basically because we have seen how beautiful things their union can do in alternative realities. And I do mean Mayday from MC2 and Annie from Renew Your Vows. Yet Marvel's stupidity doesn't allow them to make those childs official in the comic, just because they can't tell the difference between Peter Parker and Peter PAN!!!! If Annie and/or Mayday would be official in the main Marvel Universe, they would definitely leave the "Super-Sons" (Jon Kent and Damian Wayne) running through the mud.

[MaydayStan]

Those interviews are very telling in some cases.

Defalco is based as always.

[Frontier]

It's weird how he calls her a little annoying but it seems like that's also part of why he liked her too .

[TinkerSpider]

I've been particularly upset about all this, way more than I usually tend to be about comics. Because at this point even when you're fully aware it's just comics being comics and dumb **** happens in comics all the damn time, there's something about hurting this particular couple that has always rubbed me the wrong way and I can't stand seeing them being ran through the mud like this. I don't even need them to be together, but seeing both their individual characters and their relationship disgraced like that isn't something I can brush off that easily.

As others have said, nothing about this story is organic. Nothing about this story is about Peter and MJ and who they are as characters, their histories, or even their world.

It's a wizard - who has only a flimsy connection to Spider-Man and even less of a connection to MJ -- whose powers and motivations fluctuate wildly simply because the author needs to them fluctuate, waving a magic wand and tearing them apart for no other reason except "me want power because me generic bad guy." And that results in wildly OOC writing in which Peter and MJ become incredibly self-centered a$$hats utterly void of empathy, with Peter acting like a toddler in a rage because he can't have the female toy of his choice so he'll settle for a consolation prize, while MJ is cold and snappish for abolutely no reason we can discern so far - or it's because she is being mind-controlled by "chains" which honestly might be worse as it takes away her agency.

There is no care discernable for the characters in the writing, no empathy for the reader and their investment. And becasue that care and empathy is vacant, the story reads as nothing but a meanspirited exercise just to see if the author could tear Peter and MJ apart and make the audience turn on them as a couple and on MJ as a love interest - and to make them turn by explictly calling MJ a "scarlet woman" - even though it's a reference to her hair, you better believe editorial knows what the phrase signifiest to the audience and Rabin could have used other synonyms for red - and implying that might have been her behavior, even though in a perfect world no one would assign moral failure to MJ. But we're not in perfect world.

Readers aren't stupid. We're very sophisticated consumers of story, we're surrounded by stories from birth and we make sense of our world through storytelling. And we have more access to stories than ever before thanks to streaming video and games and the proliferation of ebooks and social media. We know when a story is being told in good faith, when a story is a sincere attempt to connect the readers with the characters and their world - and when a story has an agenda and is narratively dishonest.

RE: The pages from Wizard

Let us not forget Wizard had a very blatant anti-MJ/anti-marriage bias in their coverage of Spider-Man, and the magazine would have cherry-picked the quotes.

Let us also not forget that Zeb Wells broke into comics by winning a Wizard magazine short film contest that caught the eye of a Marvel editor, and that he worked on Robot Chicken with at least two former Wizard staffers.

[Mercwmouth12]

As others have said, nothing about this story is organic. Nothing about this story is about Peter and MJ and who they are as characters, their histories, or even their world.

It's a wizard - who has only a flimsy connection to Spider-Man and even less of a connection to MJ -- whose powers and motivations fluctuate wildly simply because the author needs to them fluctuate, waving a magic wand and tearing them apart for no other reason except "me want power because me generic bad guy." And that results in wildly OOC writing in which Peter and MJ become incredibly self-centered a$$hats utterly void of empathy, with Peter acting like a toddler in a rage because he can't have the female toy of his choice so he'll settle for a consolation prize, while MJ is cold and snappish for abolutely no reason we can discern so far - or it's because she is being mind-controlled by "chains" which honestly might be worse as it takes away her agency.

There is no care discernable for the characters in the writing, no empathy for the reader and their investment. And becasue that care and empathy is vacant, the story reads as nothing but a meanspirited exercise just to see if the author could tear Peter and MJ apart and make the audience turn on them as a couple and on MJ as a love interest - and to make them turn by explictly calling MJ a "scarlet woman" - even though it's a reference to her hair, you better believe editorial knows what the phrase signifiest to the audience and Rabin could have used other synonyms for red - and implying that might have been her behavior, even though in a perfect world no one would assign moral failure to MJ. But we're not in perfect world.

Readers aren't stupid. We're very sophisticated consumers of story, we're surrounded by stories from birth and we make sense of our world through storytelling. And we have more access to stories than ever before thanks to streaming video and games and the proliferation of ebooks and social media. We know when a story is being told in good faith, when a story is a sincere attempt to connect the readers with the characters and their world - and when a story has an agenda and is narratively dishonest.

Thing is MJ as a character has been through worse and will get through this and so far seen way more people mad at the story than as they were with MJ. Now that there's clarity with the magic chains it seems most people are now like this is even dumber. Highly suspect after the kids and Paul go away most will just be like this was the dumbest story ever for a specific reason to break them up. MJ hate is a thing but this won't leave any real impact except for it turning into another number of for a list of bad stories. Can almost guarantee we'll get a half assed reunion with them getting back together or a set up for them being together again with the next writer. This is just the last gasp for the BND crew

[Spider-Tiger]

Honestly, this is so telling especially Bendis who's basically like yeah I'm not a big 616 MJ fan but I like Gwen even less.

It explains so much about their Ultimate versions.

Bendis seems to be more pro-MJ during the marriage than before which is interesting. Does make sense considering how he handled MJ in Ultimate. He basically tossed out all of 616 MJ's pre-marriage character development. (Which imo just made her less interesting)

Brevoort seems the most against everything. All of his comments: preferred Gwen alive, Parallel Lives bad, marriage bad. Man did not have one positive thing to say about the developments in Peter's love life between 1973 and 1987 which is ironic considering how much they complain about the anti-OMD fans.

The most surprising comment is Loeb claiming that Gwen's death and MJ's development was a mistake. If not for Gwen's death, Spider-man Blue wouldn't be a thing. (Also, that last page with MJ was probably one of the best things about that story.)

[TheSupernaut]

Honestly the implication MJ used the Jackpot line on Paul for mez is worse than if they just slept together.

[CaptainUniverse]

Honestly the implication MJ used the Jackpot line on Paul for mez is worse than if they just slept together.

The only reason Paul learned about it was because MJ mentioned it in reference to her first meeting with Peter while Paul was explaining what his device was supposed to do in a much earlier scene than the one where she is trying it on.

[MaydayStan]

Honestly the implication MJ used the Jackpot line on Paul for mez is worse than if they just slept together.

See below.

The only reason Paul learned about it was because MJ mentioned it in reference to her first meeting with Peter while Paul was explaining what his device was supposed to do in a much earlier scene than the one where she is trying it on.

I definitely think this is what actually was shown here. The implication was left there because Wells knew what everyone would automatically assume, and it definitely irritated and hurt me a lot more than I will care to admit when I first read it, but considering that she had already mentioned it when she first saw him making the bracelet, it's pretty obvious that it's 99.9% more likely he asked about it later and she just told him.

[Johnny]

As others have said, nothing about this story is organic. Nothing about this story is about Peter and MJ and who they are as characters, their histories, or even their world.

It's a wizard - who has only a flimsy connection to Spider-Man and even less of a connection to MJ -- whose powers and motivations fluctuate wildly simply because the author needs to them fluctuate, waving a magic wand and tearing them apart for no other reason except "me want power because me generic bad guy." And that results in wildly OOC writing in which Peter and MJ become incredibly self-centered a$$hats utterly void of empathy, with Peter acting like a toddler in a rage because he can't have the female toy of his choice so he'll settle for a consolation prize, while MJ is cold and snappish for abolutely no reason we can discern so far - or it's because she is being mind-controlled by "chains" which honestly might be worse as it takes away her agency.

There is no care discernable for the characters in the writing, no empathy for the reader and their investment. And becasue that care and empathy is vacant, the story reads as nothing but a meanspirited exercise just to see if the author could tear Peter and MJ apart and make the audience turn on them as a couple and on MJ as a love interest - and to make them turn by explictly calling MJ a "scarlet woman" - even though it's a reference to her hair, you better believe editorial knows what the phrase signifiest to the audience and Rabin could have used other synonyms for red - and implying that might have been her behavior, even though in a perfect world no one would assign moral failure to MJ. But we're not in perfect world.

Readers aren't stupid. We're very sophisticated consumers of story, we're surrounded by stories from birth and we make sense of our world through storytelling. And we have more access to stories than ever before thanks to streaming video and games and the proliferation of ebooks and social media. We know when a story is being told in good faith, when a story is a sincere attempt to connect the readers with the characters and their world - and when a story has an agenda and is narratively dishonest.

The funny thing is Rabin's final monologue about ending the old to accept the new, or how it starts with anger before finally reaching acceptance almost feels like a statement towards the audience. Its like it's literally telling people they can't let go of "the past" and will be raging on and on about these developments before ultimately learning to accept them. The fact that it's a monologue by the villain makes it come off as even more farcical.

[TinkerSpider]

The funny thing is Rabin's final monologue about ending the old to accept the new, or how it starts with anger before finally reaching acceptance almost feels like a statement towards the audience. Its like it's literally telling people they can't let go of "the past" and will be raging on and on about these developments before ultimately learning to accept them. The fact that it's a monologue by the villain makes it come off as even more farcical.

Wow, you're right about it being a lecture aimed at the audience.

And then, of course, the monologue ends with basically "so MJ must die."

Joke's on them, of course. Wells mentioned in a podcast being frustrated with readers during BND: "the OMD band aid is ripped off, it hurt, but now let's tell some great stories" but readers wouldn't accept it.

Now it's almost two decades later and OMD is still not accepted.

Marvel is completely deluded if they think this is going to be accepted, too.

[Spidey_Legend]

Bendis seems to be more pro-MJ during the marriage than before which is interesting. Does make sense considering how he handled MJ in Ultimate. He basically tossed out all of 616 MJ's pre-marriage character development. (Which imo just made her less interesting)

Brevoort seems the most against everything. All of his comments: preferred Gwen alive, Parallel Lives bad, marriage bad. Man did not have one positive thing to say about the developments in Peter's love life between 1973 and 1987 which is ironic considering how much they complain about the anti-OMD fans.

The most surprising comment is Loeb claiming that Gwen's death and MJ's development was a mistake. If not for Gwen's death, Spider-man Blue wouldn't be a thing. (Also, that last page with MJ was probably one of the best things about that story.)

I can understand the Bendis one since I think like him in regards of MJ. I only like her during the marriage era. Pre wedding I found her a little boring except few storylines. Post OMD I don't count her. She was totally destroyed like Peter.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Wow, you're right about it being a lecture aimed at the audience.

And then, of course, the monologue ends with basically "so MJ must die."

Joke's on them, of course. Wells mentioned in a podcast being frustrated with readers during BND: "the OMD band aid is ripped off, it hurt, but now let's tell some great stories" but readers wouldn't accept it.

Now it's almost two decades later and OMD is still not accepted.

Marvel is completely deluded if they think this is going to be accepted, too.

The thing about "fans are not over OMD" is it assumes new fans haven't come on board since 2007. Like it's all the same people complaining for 16 years.

Eventually, the reality that many anti-OMD fans are young will become impossible to avoid. I mean, it's already becoming impossible. Cebulski already admitted that fans of the marriage are more likely to be on the younger side. Wells kinda admitted it too (in December's podcast when he conceeded it's not just older fans who don't like his run).

[Astroman]

The thing about "fans are not over OMD" is it assumes new fans haven't come on board since 2007. Like it's all the same people complaining for 16 years.

Eventually, the reality that many anti-OMD fans are young will become impossible to avoid. I mean, it's already becoming impossible. Cebulski already admitted that fans of the marriage are more likely to be on the younger side. Wells kinda admitted it too (in December's podcast when he conceeded it's not just older fans who don't like his run).

Which makes sense. So many heroes (especially in the DC universes) have kids, are married, etc. Hell, Batman has more "love" and "Family" in his life than poor Peter. Superman successfully is married with a kid, Wally West (finally!) is a perfect template for how a "funny" hero with a family can work.

Jean Grey and Cyclops have kids. Spider-Woman.

The idea that heroes have to be not-married and "relatable" by being kept in a single/young state is only accepted conventional wisdom by the older fans.