Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2023

[Lukmendes]

As much as I hate that the relationship DC keeps shoving Barbara back into is the most toxic one she's ever had. I loved her reaction. They're heroes. Danger's part of the game, and any Superhero in a relationship understands that.

Is it really the most toxic? 'Cause her last ongoing ended with her staying with this domestic terrorist guy who fucked over the GPD and framed her father... Then again that may be less of "toxic relationship" and more "She's being too nice to him while she's a bitch to everyone else".

[Frontier]

Usagi x Rei or Usagi x Haruka mostly. I see the merit in Usagi x Ami or even Usagi x Gurio too. But it's Usagi x Haruka most though. Seiya was okay but in the manga it wasn't given as much romantic subplot(wished it was) and also in the anime the "may I take his place" from the anime and Usagi's inability to function without Tuxedo in existence both made me gag X_X Hopefully it's done better in Sailor Moon Crystal because there's a lot there to work with if done right.

I always hated the "Fated to love each other till the end of time" nonsense that takes away free choice, even as a kid. That's probably why I loved the Hawkeye x John Stewart pairing in the Justice League TV series and how one of the comic shows, showed how toxic Hawkman would be to Hawkgirl with a "fated to be together" destiny hanging over them and feeling she was owed to him. Anything that tears the heck out of that trope, I adore :P

I won't hate on anyone that ships Usagi and Mamoru though

I love Hawkman and Hawkgirl in the comics...

Is it really the most toxic? 'Cause her last ongoing ended with her staying with this domestic terrorist guy who fucked over the GPD and framed her father... Then again that may be less of "toxic relationship" and more "She's being too nice to him while she's a bitch to everyone else".

I don't always love what Tom Taylor is doing in his Nightwing run but never bringing up Jason Bard and Babs' attitude from the last run was a win in my book .

[CaptainUniverse]

Remember that time Spinneret beat Magneto and Emma Frost? That was cool.

[Lukmendes]

I always hated the "Fated to love each other till the end of time" nonsense that takes away free choice, even as a kid. That's probably why I loved the Hawkeye x John Stewart pairing in the Justice League TV series and how one of the comic shows, showed how toxic Hawkman would be to Hawkgirl with a "fated to be together" destiny hanging over them and feeling she was owed to him. Anything that tears the heck out of that trope, I adore :P

But, that's not what Justice League did at all, because the second Hawkman episode enforced she's actually fated to be with John since John's previous reincarnation ended up with Shayera's previous reincarnation anyways, so it's the same shit, only with another man.

At the very least John himself actually wants to avoid being fate's pupper and he'll remain with Vixen (At least for the moment), but Shayera actually wanted to be with him because of fate nonsense I think...

A̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶H̶a̶w̶k̶e̶y̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶J̶o̶h̶n̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶u̶n̶n̶y̶ ̶s̶h̶i̶p̶.̶

I don't always love what Tom Taylor is doing in his Nightwing run but never bringing up Jason Bard and Babs' attitude from the last run was a win in my book .

Yeah I don't really like when such things are conveniently ignored, but, I can see why it happens.

Like, I only read that last issue so I dunno the context of a lot of stuff, but she decides to be a bitch to Batman about him making the wrong donations, instead of having a fucking conversation where she suggests to him about what she thinks is the best in the long run, the conversation was basically:

"- Hey Bruce, you're making the wrong donations, donate to these places now!

- Not now! Joker is terrorizing the city, and my money is being watched so I can't go wasting it!

- Donate it now!

- Later!

- Now!

- Later!

- NOW!

- Okay."

Like, shit man, I don't like Batman and seeing that asshole being put on his place can be cathartic, but, that's not what's going on here, she was just being an unreasonable bitch, instead of asking for a favor, she was being demanding...

Between this and YJ's season 3 after the Anti-Light shit is found out, and Barbara talks shit about Bruce and talks in a way like he only called protegés to be part of Anti-Light, which, completely ignores that both Kaldur'ahm and M'gann aren't it, and Kaldur'ahm actually outranks Batman... Like he's still at fault for manipulating shit like this, but she makes it sound like all he did was call a bunch of yes men, and that also makes it look like she's avoiding her responsibility on that...

So, two isolated situations where Barbara is being a bitch to Batman, (And the comics one is the worst one, 'cause at least in YJ she has a point, even if she blames Batman a bit too much) and I have to defend a character I don't like, this ain't fun...

And if that shit wasn't bad enough, she decides to talk shit to Dick about the whole "Ric Grayson" nonsense, because the comic wants me to not like her I guess.

Remember that time Spinneret beat Magneto and Emma Frost? That was cool.

That was so boring to me lol.

Then again, I never like when stuff ends in such a rushed and anti-climatic ways...

[Ursalink]

Remember that time Spinneret beat Magneto and Emma Frost? That was cool.

And people still think Mary Jane with Spider-Powers would be a good idea. She single handed knoked out two of the X-Men's greatest enemies with one heck of a punch.

[Lukmendes]

And people still think Mary Jane with Spider-Powers would be a good idea. She single handed knoked out two of the X-Men's greatest enemies with one heck of a punch.

Any character can be competent or incompetent if they're written that way, and the point against MJ getting powers is never about how competent she'd be, it's whether or not it's right for the character.

[Majesty]

But, that's not what Justice League did at all, because the second Hawkman episode enforced she's actually fated to be with John since John's previous reincarnation ended up with Shayera's previous reincarnation anyways, so it's the same shit, only with another man.

At the very least John himself actually wants to avoid being fate's puppet and he'll remain with Vixen (At least for the moment), but Shayera actually wanted to be with him because of fate nonsense I think...

A̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶H̶a̶w̶k̶e̶y̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶J̶o̶h̶n̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶u̶n̶n̶y̶ ̶s̶h̶i̶p̶.̶

They did that after they'd already broken up and it was also done as part of a storyline to 'keep them apart' for the cartoon run so that Vixen was given the chance with him. It wasn't a "day one" decision, it became a decision to keep them apart. It didn't make me hate it any less. I wasn't happy that there was a 'future' where they had a kid, and I wasn't happy that they used it as John's reason for staying away.

They pulled that same crap with Gwen and Miles in the comics too when they had a healthy relationship going but then saw an alt-universe version of themselves had gotten together and were all "let's be friends now instead..so we aren't a puppet to fate" it's a trope I despise with a passion. When used in one way or the other. It used as a trope to 'ensure people stay together' and used as a trope to 'with knowledge its used to break characters up.'

They did similar with Wonder Woman and Batman too. Where Wonder Woman saw multiple futures of her and Bruce being together and despite loving how things turned out, she lied to Bruce about what she saw and kept him at a distance despite being in love with him. We see how the trope gets used nowadays :P I won't bring up the other one.

The one in Sailor Moon(anime) where they made Usagi being unable to function because of her co-dependence on Tuxedo Mask was a very tiring thing to watch. It makes the threads of fate almost malicious in a sense which is why I despise it. Then again in the anime it's near universally agreed that in those later seasons a lot of characters got done dirty, but that series as far as Usagi goes in the anime always sucked at the romance bit.

So hopefully Crystal does it better.

But back to the subject :3 Let's keep "fated by Destiny to be together because reincarnations and stuff!" out of comics from now on.

[Majesty]

But, that's not what Justice League did at all, because the second Hawkman episode enforced she's actually fated to be with John since John's previous reincarnation ended up with Shayera's previous reincarnation anyways, so it's the same shit, only with another man.

At the very least John himself actually wants to avoid being fate's puppet and he'll remain with Vixen (At least for the moment), but Shayera actually wanted to be with him because of fate nonsense I think...

A̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶H̶a̶w̶k̶e̶y̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶J̶o̶h̶n̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶u̶n̶n̶y̶ ̶s̶h̶i̶p̶.̶

They did that after they'd already broken up and it was also done as part of a storyline to 'keep them apart' for the cartoon run so that Vixen was given the chance with him. It wasn't a "day one" decision, it became a decision to keep them apart. It didn't make me hate it any less. I wasn't happy that there was a 'future' where they had a kid, and I wasn't happy that they used it as John's reason for staying away.

They pulled that same crap with Gwen and Miles in the comics too when they had a healthy relationship going but then saw an alt-universe version of themselves had gotten together and were all "let's be friends now instead..so we aren't a puppet to fate" it's a trope I despise with a passion. When used in one way or the other. It used as a trope to 'ensure people stay together' and used as a trope to 'with knowledge its used to break characters up.'

They did similar with Wonder Woman and Batman too. Where Wonder Woman saw multiple futures of her and Bruce being together and despite loving how things turned out, she lied to Bruce about what she saw and kept him at a distance despite being in love with him. We see how the trope gets used nowadays :P I won't bring up the other one.

The one in Sailor Moon(anime) where they made Usagi being unable to function because of her co-dependence on Tuxedo Mask was a very tiring thing to watch. It makes the threads of fate almost malicious in a sense which is why I despise it. Then again in the anime it's near universally agreed that in those later seasons a lot of characters got done dirty, but that series as far as Usagi goes in the anime always sucked at the romance bit.

So hopefully Crystal does it better.

But back to the subject :3 Let's keep "fated by Destiny to be together because reincarnations and stuff!" out of comics from now on.

I love Hawkman and Hawkgirl in the comics...

I can understand. He's much less toxic with her there. Too bad we're likely never seeing him in another DCEU film for the next decade X_X

[Lukmendes]

They did that after they'd already broken up and it was also done as part of a storyline to 'keep them apart' for the cartoon run so that Vixen was given the chance with him. It wasn't a "day one" decision, it became a decision to keep them apart. It didn't make me hate it any less. I wasn't happy that there was a 'future' where they had a kid, and I wasn't happy that they used it as John's reason for staying away.

It was more like "The writers realized they fucked up and had to find a way to make John not look like shit".

And honestly, the whole thing is treated as more like a temporary setback to them getting back together, so they're kinda still treated as being fated to be together.

They pulled that same crap with Gwen and Miles in the comics too when they had a healthy relationship going but then saw an alt-universe version of themselves had gotten together and were all "let's be friends now instead..so we aren't a puppet to fate" it's a trope I despise with a passion. When used in one way or the other. It used as a trope to 'ensure people stay together' and used as a trope to 'with knowledge its used to break characters up.'

Well, it's not like that was anything but Bendis' fanfiction, Gwen and Miles don't even think of each other in their comics afterwards, and I think it's only Spider-Gwen's comic that references this by saying it is a possible future, but one that won't be happening because of the way Gwen's life is doesn't match up with that future.

They did similar with Wonder Woman and Batman too. Where Wonder Woman saw multiple futures of her and Bruce being together and despite loving how things turned out, she lied to Bruce about what she saw and kept him at a distance despite being in love with him. We see how the trope gets used nowadays :P I won't bring up the other one.

Where did that happen? Pretty sure it's not in DCAU at least, but it's been a while...

Though, DCAU did have a bad habit of making Diana be rather bland and a Batman fangirl...

The one in Sailor Moon(anime) where they made Usagi being unable to function because of her co-dependence on Tuxedo Mask was a very tiring thing to watch. It makes the threads of fate almost malicious in a sense which is why I despise it. Then again in the anime it's near universally agreed that in those later seasons a lot of characters got done dirty, but that series as far as Usagi goes in the anime always sucked at the romance bit.

Can't really speak for it, though it does look shitty, but ultimately I know nothing about Sailor Moon besides the fact that it exists.

That and its hilarious American censorship about making a lesbian couple be cousins, and everybody is shocked these two women are cousins.

But back to the subject :3 Let's keep "fated by Destiny to be together because reincarnations and stuff!" out of comics from now on.

Definitely, it's one of the many, many clichés about romance that are pretty questionable if you stop to think about it lol.

[Majesty]

Where did that happen? Pretty sure it's not in DCAU at least, but it's been a while...

Though, DCAU did have a bad habit of making Diana be rather bland and a Batman fangirl...

The Wonder Woman and Batman one happened in the comics.

She saw one reality where Joker killed Batman and thus she killed the Joker. (least likely as Diana killed before and the Joker makes a point to never kill Batman)
Another where both her and Bruce's children (brother and sister) grew up to fight crime.

This is their daughter, and the person whom is the new Batman is her brother.

Another where her and Bruce turned Gotham into a metropolis kind of city, ended crime and saved the world. But the Themyscarian Elders refused to okay her having children with him. But they decided to stay together.
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And one final one where they lived their lives together and when Bruce was old and in his last days on Themyscara, Diana came to spend time with him and he spent the last of his days by her side as she stayed with him throughout.
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To be honest it was a really beautiful comic, and I always felt like the Themyscara moment with him and Diana was the ending Alfred wanted for Bruce.

Either way, despite loving the visions she saw that could be potential futures of a life with Bruce, she lies and says what she saw was 'horrible' while still playing the moment Bruce said every life he had left is hers, in her mind/heart.

[Frontier]

I never saw Usagi as co-dependent on Tuxedo Mask. Even when they broke up she was still trying to be Sailor Moon even despite the emotional heartache and she still recovered from his death (more than once) to stop the Big Bad.

Yeah I don't really like when such things are conveniently ignored, but, I can see why it happens.

Like, I only read that last issue so I dunno the context of a lot of stuff, but she decides to be a bitch to Batman about him making the wrong donations, instead of having a fucking conversation where she suggests to him about what she thinks is the best in the long run, the conversation was basically:

"- Hey Bruce, you're making the wrong donations, donate to these places now!

- Not now! Joker is terrorizing the city, and my money is being watched so I can't go wasting it!

- Donate it now!

- Later!

- Now!

- Later!

- NOW!

- Okay."

Like, shit man, I don't like Batman and seeing that asshole being put on his place can be cathartic, but, that's not what's going on here, she was just being an unreasonable bitch, instead of asking for a favor, she was being demanding...

Between this and YJ's season 3 after the Anti-Light shit is found out, and Barbara talks shit about Bruce and talks in a way like he only called protegés to be part of Anti-Light, which, completely ignores that both Kaldur'ahm and M'gann aren't it, and Kaldur'ahm actually outranks Batman... Like he's still at fault for manipulating shit like this, but she makes it sound like all he did was call a bunch of yes men, and that also makes it look like she's avoiding her responsibility on that...

So, two isolated situations where Barbara is being a bitch to Batman, (And the comics one is the worst one, 'cause at least in YJ she has a point, even if she blames Batman a bit too much) and I have to defend a character I don't like, this ain't fun...

And if that shit wasn't bad enough, she decides to talk shit to Dick about the whole "Ric Grayson" nonsense, because the comic wants me to not like her I guess.

Barbara definitely has her moments of being condescending and judgemental.

Remember that time Spinneret beat Magneto and Emma Frost? That was cool.

It was cool, but also kind of a bit much .

[WebLurker]

And people still think Mary Jane with Spider-Powers would be a good idea. She single handed knoked out two of the X-Men's greatest enemies with one heck of a punch.

I think MJ getting in on the action in and of itself worked for that specific series (her joining Peter and their daughter on patrol allowed the superhero elements to thematically reflect family dynamics -- think Incredibles, but with webs). I will concede that her just sucker-punching Emma and taking both her and Magento out to end things (Magneto and Emma were Vulcan-mindmelded at the time, if I recall correctly, so knocking one out would take care of both) was an abrupt ending, but I was okay with with for a couple of reasons. First of all, I thought it was reasonably obvious that MJ got really lucky with million-to-one odds of being able to take them out like that that probably wouldn't come again (Emma and Magneto being mind-linked, Emma using Cerebro and being both distracted with using it and not having time to react if she saw it coming, etc.). Second of all, it's used to set up the Venom arc, where we see that MJ's gotten a bit overconfident from that victory, which factors into her mistake in using what turns out to be the Venom symbiote (when agreeing to try the mystery suit, she specifically dismisses the warnings that, since she took down Magneto, she can handle this).

[Majesty]

And people still think Mary Jane with Spider-Powers would be a good idea. She single handed knoked out two of the X-Men's greatest enemies with one heck of a punch.

tbh Mary Jane has always had a heck of a left cross.

[Frontier]

No doubt:

[Vegeta]

Remember that time Spinneret beat Magneto and Emma Frost? That was cool.

That was terrible writing. The man that can create forcefields alongside the woman who can turn off MJ's brain with a thought both get clobbered by a single punch. (Also, how was Emma controlling Magneto when he is wearing his helmet???) Even Spidey with Captain Universe powers struggled against Magneto, but not Mary Jane!