IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2023

[Doombot]

So, what kind of pitches / stories do you think would fit and benefit Namor? Or are we limited to just past or AU stories?

What do you mean by limited to past or AU stories? Like rehashing his origin or war years over and over? As for AU, we did just get one, and I still don't really know what it was about.

[Reviresco]

It would never happen, but I wonder if what Namor needs, is the Mignola method. (and not just cause he was just mentioned in the thread lol) What I mean by that is, Mignola created an entire universe for Hellboy with short series that were released over time. They are connect and have continuity, but Hellboy was never an ongoing. Six issue, contained stories, where the world building was always going on in the background and continuing to build during each following 5-6 issue story arc. Reading each new small story arc in Hellboy's universe always seemed so epic to me while it was still being made. This happened over like 20+yrs, and of course I would always want more Subby content than that, but I would still happily take something in that lane. Again, it would never happen, and Hellboy's universe was created and curated by a single invested creator, but in theory it's a way Marvel could go.

That's a huge time commitment... as well as other things. But that's the only way I think we could get any world building, in Marvel's new format / story telling, but it would be hard to get a single invested creator, cause I don't think Marvel would invest in / commit to multiple mini-series for Namor, though they've done so for some characters. I wonder if that's the creator's choice or Marvel just trying to make a character happen. I tend to think the later. But it a harder thing to do and you don't have the luxury of threading plots over time.

What do you mean by limited to past or AU stories? Like rehashing his origin or war years over and over? As for AU, we did just get one, and I still don't really know what it was about.

I meant that's the direction that Marvel seems to have taken with Namor over the past few years, especially given their change to mini-series. And yes. Rehashing isn't that bad if they can make his past cohesive, sort of like Saga, but I really don't like the retconning. I'd like a good Invaders book set during WWII. And the past stories could fill in some blanks. I still think there's a ton of stories that you could tell, especially since there's so much time they've left Namor without a book. Like I said before, I think the era from 1955 to getting amnesia before being found by Torch, is just rife with potential. Especially if Marvel keeps insisting on extending the time length of amnesia.

Sort of, though of course, I'd prefer a more successful AU, something that would inspire creators, like Dark Knight and Kingdom Come did.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Yes! It's great that they got included, and the Mignola connection make that an ideal place. Though I think they might have been printed in something Subby related also.

Agreed! They definitely would be on my recommended list.

Yeah, cause I still don't understand why an alleged X-men centric podcast / site would choose an Inhuman over a mutant. But it was great to see the vocal support for Namor.

After last year, I'm not holding my breath for an official Gala outfit or one that isn't half-assed. Once again, whatever plotline that Hickman had for Namor, went with him. Gillen might use him as wallpaper, but he's more interested in other characters. Haven't gotten the new solicits, but I think we got hit by the monkey paw again, and Namor will finally appear in something ... but it will be Hickman's Illuminati Ultimate Universe mini. sigh.

Because CerebroCast is a bad podcast imo. I hate it very much but tried to give it a chance by listening to them but each time I come out hating their podcast even more. They never say anything interesting or insightful, the few times they joked about Namor it was to bring up NamorSue, which like in all honesty tells you all you need to know because if you read Namor in X-Men or his own comics Sue is barely mentioned, so the old Fanon they keep circulating just keeps getting repeated. Also I feel like they talk too much about other teams rather than the x-men. So its not surprising they would throw in their lot with an inhuman character as a joke. Namor isn't liked by many x men fans I think because he isn't drinking the kool aid so to speak, there was a lot of animosity towards him when he rejected Prof X to join the x men on krakoa.

What's up fish-folk, what should we discuss next?

I want to talk about Attuma, I don't think we have ever discussed him in depth, What are people's favorite stories that include him?

Been thinking about how Marvel has changed their story telling format and how that effects the stories they tell, and how that could be a good thing or a bad thing for Namor IF Marvel ever gave a damn.

We keep talking about world building for Namor, but given that Marvel doesn't hand out ongoings anymore, unless you're Ghostrider, how is that possible? I mean, you don't even get 6 issues in a mini-series anymore, but 5. There's not longform story telling anymore unless you're Spider-Man.

OTOH, it may give writers a chance to write evergreen stories ... which is good and bad. So, what kind of pitches / stories do you think would fit and benefit Namor? Or are we limited to just past or AU stories?

I noticed that too, why did marvel change from 6 issues to 5?

That's a huge time commitment... as well as other things. But that's the only way I think we could get any world building, in Marvel's new format / story telling, but it would be hard to get a single invested creator, cause I don't think Marvel would invest in / commit to multiple mini-series for Namor, though they've done so for some characters. I wonder if that's the creator's choice or Marvel just trying to make a character happen. I tend to think the later. But it a harder thing to do and you don't have the luxury of threading plots over time.


I meant that's the direction that Marvel seems to have taken with Namor over the past few years, especially given their change to mini-series. And yes. Rehashing isn't that bad if they can make his past cohesive, sort of like Saga, but I really don't like the retconning. I'd like a good Invaders book set during WWII. And the past stories could fill in some blanks. I still think there's a ton of stories that you could tell, especially since there's so much time they've left Namor without a book. Like I said before, I think the era from 1955 to getting amnesia before being found by Torch, is just rife with potential. Especially if Marvel keeps insisting on extending the time length of amnesia.

Sort of, though of course, I'd prefer a more successful AU, something that would inspire creators, like Dark Knight and Kingdom Come did.

If we kept getting miniseries like Busiek's King in Black then I wouldn't complain, because its a really good self contained arc, and older comics used to have these 3-5 issue arcs in the main ongoing, then the heroes would go onto another adventure. So having a bunch of mini series that have good writing and art is imo the best we might hope for? Since Marvel is allergic to giving characters enough time to build up their following. However I really wanted a longer form series just because he really needs that time and security to get his own narrative going again.

[Reviresco]

Because CerebroCast is a bad podcast imo. I hate it very much but tried to give it a chance by listening to them but each time I come out hating their podcast even more. They never say anything interesting or insightful, the few times they joked about Namor it was to bring up NamorSue, which like in all honesty tells you all you need to know because if you read Namor in X-Men or his own comics Sue is barely mentioned, so the old Fanon they keep circulating just keeps getting repeated. Also I feel like they talk too much about other teams rather than the x-men. So its not surprising they would throw in their lot with an inhuman character as a joke. Namor isn't liked by many x men fans I think because he isn't drinking the kool aid so to speak, there was a lot of animosity towards him when he rejected Prof X to join the x men on krakoa.

Hmmm. That's odd. Never listened to them. But most of the comic podcasts are pretty ... amateur and not very entertaining. I like the ones that interview comic creators and employees.

Namor has always been a ... controversial character amongst the X-fans. But he's not in the books now for them to have much to complain about, if they didn't like him -- or more precisely, hated that the pages he got weren't spent on their favorite mutant character. Though there are still X-fans that appreciate him.

I want to talk about Attuma, I don't think we have ever discussed him in depth, What are people's favorite stories that include him?

Honestly, I've never cared for Attuma, even in the KiB retcon. He's mostly been written generically with little substance. Like Doombot, they COULD do some interesting things with him and his barbarians, if they wrote him and them like the Mongols. I think he might have gotten some play in Atlantis Attacks, but wasn't that the story where he was trying to start something with Jean Grey of all people.

I noticed that too, why did marvel change from 6 issues to 5?

To get more money from us, at least in trade format. I think it's called shrinkage? Where they sell you a box of 10oz box of cereal for the same price you previously paid for a 12 oz. The last time they did it, was when they reduced the page count from 22 pages to 20 pages, but kept the same price.

If we kept getting miniseries like Busiek's King in Black then I wouldn't complain, because its a really good self contained arc, and older comics used to have these 3-5 issue arcs in the main ongoing, then the heroes would go onto another adventure. So having a bunch of mini series that have good writing and art is imo the best we might hope for? Since Marvel is allergic to giving characters enough time to build up their following. However I really wanted a longer form series just because he really needs that time and security to get his own narrative going again.

This is kind of what I was getting at. The mini-series format Marvel is using now doesn't guarantee either time or security or consistency, much less good writing. And because they've sabotaged their ongoing format, even those don't offer more than 12 issues max -- unless you're Spider-man or X-men. The way Marvel publishes now, Chris Claremont could never have written and built up the X-Men like he did, with B and C plots seeded issues ahead, and threaded throughout the issues. He couldn't have taken an issue and focused it on just one X-man, b/cause he be cutting one issue from his story -- though, of course, they didn't write 5 issue stories back then, so that may not be an entirely valid point. But it does explain why we only get stories now the main characters, with little build up of hte cast or world, unless you have a big name book.

And with random mini-series, even if they were good, they would be by different writers and there's no guarantee they would follow what was in the previous one. Like whoever follows up on KiB doesn't have to follow up on the Lady Dorma plot hook. They could trash / retcon the whole Attuma backhistory. And then the next one could destroy Atlantis again, and send Namor off into space.

IF Marvel isn't going to invest in a guaranteed Namor ongoing, which I think they absolutely should, then what we should be asking for is a consistent good writer, who is guaranteed several Namor mini-series, so he can world build and portray a consistent Namor, hopefully wrapped in excellent storylines, with awesome artists. The best example of this is Jed McKay and his multiple Black Cat books, as well as his Doctor Strange and Clea mini-series. Kelly Thompson sort of did the same with the new Hawkeye, but I think McKay was more successful. That's the sort of Editorial support and creator that Namor needs under this current format.

[Doombot]

That's a huge time commitment... as well as other things. But that's the only way I think we could get any world building, in Marvel's new format / story telling, but it would be hard to get a single invested creator, cause I don't think Marvel would invest in / commit to multiple mini-series for Namor, though they've done so for some characters. I wonder if that's the creator's choice or Marvel just trying to make a character happen. I tend to think the later. But it a harder thing to do and you don't have the luxury of threading plots over time.

It wouldn't have to be over that same time span. Mignola is notoriously slow. Marvel, with another creator, could easily do a mini once a year? Two years? Not ideal, but I'd take it.

I meant that's the direction that Marvel seems to have taken with Namor over the past few years, especially given their change to mini-series. And yes. Rehashing isn't that bad if they can make his past cohesive, sort of like Saga, but I really don't like the retconning. I'd like a good Invaders book set during WWII. And the past stories could fill in some blanks. I still think there's a ton of stories that you could tell, especially since there's so much time they've left Namor without a book. Like I said before, I think the era from 1955 to getting amnesia before being found by Torch, is just rife with potential. Especially if Marvel keeps insisting on extending the time length of amnesia.

Although the 50's isn't really a time I'm overly interested in, at least on the surface, it's certainly a window for storytelling. There's lots to explore about what was going on in Thakorr's Atlantis, with Fen, Dorma and of course Namor himself. You could explore, or retcon?, exactly what would have lead up to Namor's amnesia, which imo, should have only began (and ended) within the same year he meets the Fantastic Four, whichever year Marvel says that is currently. Unfortunately stories would have to be contained within that time period, as most of the Subby villains were introduced post Sub-Mariner #1. I suppose Attuma could be used, as he's technically always been there, but I can't remember right now if his first appearance notes that Namor has or hasn't met him before. Tigershark, Dorcas, Orca, Stingray, Suma-Ket would all be out. Naga would be ruling in Lemuria, but as a withering, secluded weirdo without the Serpent Crown. Again, I can't remember if in the first appearances of Naga (or Llyra for that matter), if it's noted that Namor has never met them before. It would depend on how much a writer wants to push retconning.

That still leaves quite a bit to play with, even without the heavy-hitter villains. You have years of a younger, but seasoned Namor, along with Fen, Thakorr, Krang, Byrrah, Dorma, Vashti, the entire Atlantean court, relationships with Lemuria, the Barbarians, growing paranoia about the surface world and their ever increasing power and influence, perhaps Betty Dean and more I'm sure I'm forgetting. You could have Namor divided between US and Soviet influence, maybe they would both be looking to entice him to their side after his departure at the end of the War. They could also both be secretly looking for ways to destroy him if he turns against them, knowing his power and how valuable he was against Germany. The Cold War struggle with Atlantis in the middle could easily be an interesting backdrop for a great run, and Namor being pulled in every direction by all of them would create a lot of drama. All this on top pf Namor having to come to terms with what he experienced during the War. Hell, one of the superpowers, or even SHIELD could be behind his amnesia, it being some sort of attempt to use or neutralize Namor. Imagine Namor meeting the Winter Soldier? It's just any new villains introduced would have to be killed, and any plotlines wrapped up by the time you get to Namor encountering Johnny in NYC.

I want to talk about Attuma, I don't think we have ever discussed him in depth, What are people's favorite stories that include him?

YUSS.

Honestly, I've never cared for Attuma, even in the KiB retcon. He's mostly been written generically with little substance. Like Doombot, they COULD do some interesting things with him and his barbarians, if they wrote him and them like the Mongols. I think he might have gotten some play in Atlantis Attacks, but wasn't that the story where he was trying to start something with Jean Grey of all people.

GASP! lol
I can understand though, I think I like Attuma more for what he could be rather than what he is. He suffers from SilverAge "goon" villainy. We've discussed this before, but Subby villains in particular suffer badly from 60's/70's "crime thug" or "goon" villain syndrome. I suppose I like Attuma as much as I do because of his presence, a legitimately tough villain with a strong visual. Unfortunately, he's in dire need of a proper modernizing, and Marvel is missing a huge opportunity to mesh what is already there for Attuma with real world history. Attuma's name is already an obvious nod to warlords of the Eurasian Steppe, just follow through with it, ffs. Imagine sea faring nomadic hordes, attacking every civilized village, outpost, province and city, brutalizing their people's, killing and enslaving, consuming anything of value into itself and destroying anything else. The open plains of the ocean are FAR bigger than on the surface, and Attuma is just sitting on the shelf begging for someone to depict him in this way. Every city and nation in the sea should be terrified of Attuma, like a shadow or a bogeyman, except he's real and he and his horde have been nigh unstoppable for decades. I would push even as far as having his hordes attacking and raiding/destroying human vessels, bringing humans into the drama. People today are worried about piracy in certain parts of the world, imagine being attacked, say anywhere in the Indian and Southern Oceans by war parties with the strength and weaponry that make Atlanteans take pause. What if one of Attuma's war parties attacked and sunk an American aircraft carrier? Could you imagine the shitshow that would rain down on Namor's head simply because humans cannot tell the difference between Atlanteans and nomadic tribes like the Chasm People? Marvel is legit sleeping on this stuff.