IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2023

[Reviresco]

I haven't read everything yet, but from what I have gone through, I see no reference to him being a mutant. There are times he's noted as being born with great power, more than his fellow Atlanteans, like in the Indestructible Hulk. I'd really rather him not be a mutant, but there isn't a lot of alternative theories. By all accounts he seems to have been born with at least superhuman strength. Unless it's from him and/or his mother being exposed to some outside source or toxins or radiation, what else could it be? Are their any other examples of anyone being born in the MU with that level of power that isn't a mutant?

Orca was strong, before he got transformed, but I'm not sure it would be superhumanly strong.

The only place I remember seeing him being 'transformed' was in that Doom resurrection story, which had an ambiguous ending, as to whether Attuma accepted the deal.

Yeah, I'm not sure I like the mutant theory, but I don't really recall any other theories. Though, fulfilling the prophecy might indicate a god's / demon's blessing / interference.

[Phoenixx9]

So, looking for some info, I stumbled on a couple sites claiming Attuma was a mutant. I really don't remember seeing this stated in any comic. Have you seen it in your reading, Doombot?

I do wonder about the origin of his obvious superhuman powers, but I'm not sure how I feel about him being a mutant.

Orca was strong, before he got transformed, but I'm not sure it would be superhumanly strong.

The only place I remember seeing him being 'transformed' was in that Doom resurrection story, which had an ambiguous ending, as to whether Attuma accepted the deal.

Yeah, I'm not sure I like the mutant theory, but I don't really recall any other theories. Though, fulfilling the prophecy might indicate a god's / demon's blessing / interference.

I never heard or read that Attuma was a mutant. I am not sure that there is any real proof in print for that theory....

Yeah, Orca was very strong aquatic oaf (not too smart either, ) before even being transformed. I think he was superstrong, moreso than average Atlantean, so maybe 10 or 20 ton level. But then he had all of those experiments and really grew (pardon the pun!) in strength.

[Doombot]

Possibly just a legitimate genetic aberration?

[Phoenixx9]

Well, there are always some who are smaller, faster, taller, stronger in all societies of real life and in the comics.

Asgardians have them and Atlanteans have them as well. I think that is what we are seeing. Attuma's daughter, Andromeda is also about 2.5 times stronger than the average. Perhaps just a good, strong bloodline.

[Reviresco]

I never heard or read that Attuma was a mutant. I am not sure that there is any real proof in print for that theory....

Yeah, Orca was very strong aquatic oaf (not too smart either, ) before even being transformed. I think he was superstrong, moreso than average Atlantean, so maybe 10 or 20 ton level. But then he had all of those experiments and really grew (pardon the pun!) in strength.

That was my thought about Orca.

Possibly just a legitimate genetic aberration?

You mean a regular mutant, as opposed to an X-Gene mutant?

Well, there are always some who are smaller, faster, taller, stronger in all societies of real life and in the comics.

Asgardians have them and Atlanteans have them as well. I think that is what we are seeing. Attuma's daughter, Andromeda is also about 2.5 times stronger than the average. Perhaps just a good, strong bloodline.

Yes, but we are talking about someone who can go toe to toe with Namor, who is superhumanly strong. Though Andromeda being strong does tend to point to some sort of genetic factor.

[Doombot]

Some interesting tibits from Agents of Atlas #6-7 (2009)
Namora says Namor destroyed Atlantis knowing his people could simply move out into the larger "Royal Confederation". (plus a nice Attuma)



Human leaders, good or bad, are fleeting to the long lives of Atlanteans, and Namor in particular. Namor seeing the much longer needs and consequences of events and geopolitics adds to why humans continue to be unable to understand him or where he will land on events, opinions or politics.



The Atlantean elite, not only knew about, but orchestrated a eugenics program in order to breed super-powered hybrids to protect and rule Atlantis.

[Doombot]

That was my thought about Orca.


You mean a regular mutant, as opposed to an X-Gene mutant?


Yes, but we are talking about someone who can go toe to toe with Namor, who is superhumanly strong. Though Andromeda being strong does tend to point to some sort of genetic factor.

I suppose. A true aberrant mutation, rather than the X-gene. It still doesn't make sense in general, but neither does the X-gene itself.

[Reviresco]

I suppose. A true aberrant mutation, rather than the X-gene. It still doesn't make sense in general, but neither does the X-gene itself.

Yes, the X-Gene is somewhat ... dubious. But it's very much established now.

Some interesting tibits from Agents of Atlas #6-7 (2009)
Namora says Namor destroyed Atlantis knowing his people could simply move out into the larger "Royal Confederation". (plus a nice Attuma)


Human leaders, good or bad, are fleeting to the long lives of Atlanteans, and Namor in particular. Namor seeing the much longer needs and consequences of events and geopolitics adds to why humans continue to be unable to understand him or where he will land on events, opinions or politics.



The Atlantean elite, not only knew about, but orchestrated a eugenics program in order to breed super-powered hybrids to protect and rule Atlantis.

I'll definitely be adding this to the Namor wants peace file, and was willing to destroy his capital city for it.

Yes, there were some good bits here, and hints, like royal LINES. Something that we've sort of heard before, with Lady Dorma, who has claimed her blood / house is as royal as Namor's. Which, of course, Namora is not at all part of by blood! She wouldn't work for Socus and Suma-Ket as far as her blood freeing him from prison.

I did like the long view from Namor about surface people. Of course, he's seen that first hand with his love life too.

But then we hit the SEKRIT EUGENICS COUNCIL that were manipulating the royals. smh

And makes me wonder why Tulem wasn't abducting and breeding Kamar. I still say that wasn't Namor's kid at all.


This was by Jeff Parker, who went on to do a nice run on Aquaman. As did Dan Abnett. And Cullen Bunn. These were all all people, except Dan Abnett, who had expressed an interest in Namor, and who I thought could do some solid work on restoring Namor and Atlantis world building ... but because the complete lack of interest from Marvel, they went on to Aquaman.

[Doombot]

Yes, the X-Gene is somewhat ... dubious. But it's very much established now.

I'd love, just once, for one of the many super-scientists that live in the MU to just come out and say, uhh hey guys, evolution just doesn't work that way...

I'll definitely be adding this to the Namor wants peace file, and was willing to destroy his capital city for it.

Yes, there were some good bits here, and hints, like royal LINES. Something that we've sort of heard before, with Lady Dorma, who has claimed her blood / house is as royal as Namor's. Which, of course, Namora is not at all part of by blood! She wouldn't work for Socus and Suma-Ket as far as her blood freeing him from prison.

I did like the long view from Namor about surface people. Of course, he's seen that first hand with his love life too.

But then we hit the SEKRIT EUGENICS COUNCIL that were manipulating the royals. smh

And makes me wonder why Tulem wasn't abducting and breeding Kamar. I still say that wasn't Namor's kid at all.


This was by Jeff Parker, who went on to do a nice run on Aquaman. As did Dan Abnett. And Cullen Bunn. These were all all people, except Dan Abnett, who had expressed an interest in Namor, and who I thought could do some solid work on restoring Namor and Atlantis world building ... but because the complete lack of interest from Marvel, they went on to Aquaman.

The first point helps support my own ideas about Namor using Atlantis(s) as distractions/protection/bait, as he builds his secret Atlantis in safety for years.

I'm really not sure how I feel about the eugenics bit. I already don't like Namora for the same reason, making the very unique Namor less unique. You just need a breeding program, the right candidates, to make more Namors? Also, why did the Atlantean elite, including King Thakorr himself, not like Namor then? He was the first success in their own super-soldier program.

[Reviresco]

I'd love, just once, for one of the many super-scientists that live in the MU to just come out and say, uhh hey guys, evolution just doesn't work that way...




The first point helps support my own ideas about Namor using Atlantis(s) as distractions/protection/bait, as he builds his secret Atlantis in safety for years.

I'm really not sure how I feel about the eugenics bit. I already don't like Namora for the same reason, making the very unique Namor less unique. You just need a breeding program, the right candidates, to make more Namors? Also, why did the Atlantean elite, including King Thakorr himself, not like Namor then? He was the first success in their own super-soldier program.

Did the royals know? I thought it was just a bunch of scientists. But yes, it's another one of those retcons that weren't really thought out, IMO. And they only came up with it to have a failed romance with Namora!!! I mean, so she wouldn't be a blood cousin ... and there was nothing that had said she was first cousin. Quite the opposite, given Namora's father should have been the heir, instead of Fen, if they followed a patriarchal inheritance. And IIRC, he was still alive when Namor was born.


That's not really how the X-Gene has worked amongst surface dwellers. I mean, shouldn't all the Summers brothers have the same mutations, like Namor and Namora?

Yes! I thought of you when they were talking about Oceanus this time.

[Doombot]

Did the royals know? I thought it was just a bunch of scientists. But yes, it's another one of those retcons that weren't really thought out, IMO. And they only came up with it to have a failed romance with Namora!!! I mean, so she wouldn't be a blood cousin ... and there was nothing that had said she was first cousin. Quite the opposite, given Namora's father should have been the heir, instead of Fen, if they followed a patriarchal inheritance. And IIRC, he was still alive when Namor was born.


That's not really how the X-Gene has worked amongst surface dwellers. I mean, shouldn't all the Summers brothers have the same mutations, like Namor and Namora?

Yes! I thought of you when they were talking about Oceanus this time.

Do you accept this retcon?
I would imagine the Royals would have to know, it would be an extremely dangerous game to be manipulating members of the Royal family into a secret breeding program without their knowledge. ThaKorr did not seem like the most forgiving type if it was found out. Of course, political intrigue, secret infighting and backdoor dealings could all be part of Thakorr's court and government, I don't know. His seemed like a stable Kingdom for many years, but we don't know much about it. Would you see his reign more like something akin to the Borgias or Game Of Thrones?

[Reviresco]

Do you accept this retcon?
I would imagine the Royals would have to know, it would be an extremely dangerous game to be manipulating members of the Royal family into a secret breeding program without their knowledge. ThaKorr did not seem like the most forgiving type if it was found out. Of course, political intrigue, secret infighting and backdoor dealings could all be part of Thakorr's court and government, I don't know. His seemed like a stable Kingdom for many years, but we don't know much about it. Would you see his reign more like something akin to the Borgias or Game Of Thrones?

Nope on the Sekrit Eugenics Cabal. I definitely gloss it over. Like you said, it makes Tha-Korr and the Atlanteans treatment of Namor really odd.

I'll have to read it over again, as to whether the Royals knew. The idea that they got the Royals to adopt Namora dad would imply they were a part of it -- but it could have been presented as some sort spare heir or actual heir plan. Then Fen was born, and so Namora's dad was sent away?

Oh man. Tha-Korr would have heads on pikes.

Yep. That's how I imagine the Atlantean court. It may have been more stable while Tha-Korr was younger with plans and heirs perhaps, but as time went on and he's down to Fen, then yes the court became far more dangerous. The mess with Byrrah, was a result of a re-marriage. You've got the Warlords agitating, with folks like Krang. You've got the priests jockeying for favor with scum like Kormok scuttling around. You've got foreign threats and the barbarians at the gate. I was thinking more like the Tudors, but it could have been as bad as the Borgias or Game of Thrones. I actually think a writer should pitch a Namor book as GoT & LoTR underwater.

This is also why I say that Namor is far more diplomatic and strategic than people give him credit for. He survived the Atlantean court, kept his rank, and became their ruler -- when almost everyone was gunning for him.

[Reviresco]

Okay, re-read those two issues. It's a bit contradictory. It says it's a program carried on by the Council of Elders centuries before. But then it says the hybrid new gods with mutations theory was proven by Namor's birth, and then they arranged things for Namora to be born. Ostensibly, since their subjects are Royals, i.e. Fen, it stand to reason they were manipulating the births of Royals over centuries.


But then it doesn't explain how Namora's dad showed up as a likely candidate. Or why they had to make him a Royal? He didn't have to be royal to have a kid with an airbreather. Or was it just because they planned to marry Namor off to Namora and that would only happen if she was royal? Is confusing.

[Doombot]

It is confusing. It's certainly an interesting idea, but I'm not a fan of a secret breeding program. Not a fan of Namor's birth being planned, even if his nature was still an unknown.

since you just re-read it, there's a scene during some flashback talk that shows a small image of Namor placing down a statue of his father. I don't remember this, did that actually happen in an old issue somewhere?

[Reviresco]

It is confusing. It's certainly an interesting idea, but I'm not a fan of a secret breeding program. Not a fan of Namor's birth being planned, even if his nature was still an unknown.

since you just re-read it, there's a scene during some flashback talk that shows a small image of Namor placing down a statue of his father. I don't remember this, did that actually happen in an old issue somewhere?

It looks vaguely familiar, but I don't remember it from another comic. It might be a Golden Age image, or perhaps from Saga. Invaders? In his regular run, I don't see why he would have done so. I'll see if I can find it.

Yeah, I don't like any sort of eugenics program, much less a secret one that produced Namor and Namora. Though the idea of reuniting the water and air breathers consistently produce hybrids like Namor also smacks of a new species, not mutation. Or maybe just leaning into the hybrid as opposed to mutant.

I did find it interesting that Namora claimed it was the surface people who gave her the name Namora, instead of her / her parents.