IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2023

[ImperiusWrecked]

[center]Indeed. Water-breathers in space is always entertaining (IMHO):

I wish we had more Namor and Triton team ups, love it when they are together.

[Reviresco]

sdkhsdjs nooo not Llyron! its a story arc that infuriates me because it makes no logical sense!

This. We know the Atlanteans can be awful and fickle, but really? Nothing they said made sense.

So here's a question, would everyone have accepted Llyron more if the twist/shock ending was he was just a clone or that he was legitimately Namor's son? Llyra showing up with a "son" that looks much like Namor isn't a terrible premise, how would you fix it?

If he'd been his son, at least the 'law' that Vashti was quoting would have made some sense. A clone? Nope. Not given the retcon Bryne pulled with Nita. Though, of course, that got ignored by later writers, as Namorita ruled for Namor several times after that.

Honestly, I wouldn't have fixed it, because I don't care for the grown kid that we've never heard of before showing up. At least with Llyra it made her look bad, but the whole Kamar stuff made Namor look terrible.

If the comics had made him a clone then yeah I would have been more ok with the plot because then its just a matter of the atlanteans being total hypocrites (again) and stupid by letting a clone on the throne even tho they didn't want any clones in atlantis. Or if he was actually Namor's son then I would hate it but accept it more, however it would also need to address the fact that Namor was r/ped by Llyra if they wanted to keep Llyron around. But he wasn't a clone, he wasn't Namor's son, he was the son of Namor's half brother (another plot point I hate) so its just SO STUPID that the Atlanteans say he has ANY claim to the throne, both parents aren't even Atlantean! Attuma had more claim than Llyron!

No bat wings either, lol.

Okay that's a plus, not a minus. ;p

I didn't like it (cause I like the idea of Leonard pining away for Fen), but I didn't mind Namor's half brother, but him being a sperm donor ... nope. But exactly! Dude had ZERO Atlantean blood. He had no claim to the throne at all.

Wouldn't he be calling upon Set? Reading the original arc, he says a curse using Poseidon, instead of Neptune for one, and two, why didn't he say Set? Pffft, writers.

Well, there's so many cults and gods in Atlantis ... it sounded like Atlantique wasn't something he created, but used or was recruited to.

Llyron being his son of not doesn't change the fact Llyra did do that to Namor, as well as Leonard's grandson, AND she basically did it to her own son by forcing her own mind/memories into his mind. Llyra is a bad bad lady.

Yes! This is why I say that Llyra is Namor's arch-nemesis. No one has stuck the knife in and screwed him over as much as Llyra has. She needs to come back.

Now this was the only thing interesting thing about Llyron. I mean, if you think about it, he was a kid trapped in an adult body, and one that was warped by Llyra mental abuse. But I don't think they really addressed that, instead they just made him bad and power hungry.

[Doombot]

It says a lot, that all the Tirgershark designs that have come along over the years are somehow worse than the plain Kirby zigzag from the early 1960s.

[Reviresco]

It def doesn't erase what Llyra did and it's addressed in one comic but after that it's forgotten or never mentioned again, however I feel that if Llyron was actually Namor's son then that glaring fact would be harder for writers to ignore. Llyra is horrible but I wish she was back in the comics because she's the perfect kind of horrible to make plots move forward and cause issues for Namor.



Tamara/Tigershark for the win! Yeah it sucks they don't put any effort into Namor's rogue gallery and the few times we are close to them having some nuance its always ignored or forgotten by the next writer.

We could have some Bonnie and Clyde vibe with Tamara and Tiger Shark ... or maybe some sort of Robin and Marian redemption arc. Though, I would hate to lose Tigershark as a villain. He is terrifying.

Well, it's not like they've done much with Llyron, either. I think the Thunderbolts story was the last we saw of him. I'd be fine with him getting killed off, if we got Llyra back.

[Reviresco]

It says a lot, that all the Tirgershark designs that have come along over the years are somehow worse than the plain Kirby zigzag from the early 1960s.

That's because Kirby is KING! And his designs have survived the decades.

[Doombot]

That's because Kirby is KING! And his designs have survived the decades.

Kirby zigzags are awful, Kirby may be King, but even he gave us some turds every once in a while. But it was Buscema anyway, he was just using the Kirby zigzag for tigershark. Tirgershark's silhouette is timeless and is what works, details like the zigzag, the goofy face gills and the ears outside the costume all need to be binned. I think the face gills were left out pretty early. Only the odd artist remembers them.

[Doombot]

We could have some Bonnie and Clyde vibe with Tamara and Tiger Shark ... or maybe some sort of Robin and Marian redemption arc. Though, I would hate to lose Tigershark as a villain. He is terrifying.

Well, it's not like they've done much with Llyron, either. I think the Thunderbolts story was the last we saw of him. I'd be fine with him getting killed off, if we got Llyra back.

I wouldn't mind seeing him come back as a sort of Bizarro-Namor and him having to deal with how badly his mother (and Vyrra) damaged his mind.

No redemption for Tigershark. He needs to become the ferocious monster he's always been meant to be, drop the "goon" criminal, tweak his costume and send him out for mayhem. Tamara and Diane, as well as Namor need to witness in horror as Todd Arliss is truly consumed forever by the Tigershark.

[Reviresco]

It is strange how, because the stories in Sub-Mariner are in the sea, space and alien stories seem extra weird or silly, yet when aliens come to the surface no one bats an eye.

I would very much like a story where Tamara is searching the stars for some trace of her people. Also, a few years ago it was discovered that one of Jupiter's moons, Europa, is covered by a huge ocean under it's surface. What if some aquatic race had developed a colony there? What if a crashed Banari vessel is there in stasis and Tamara discovers it? How would Atlantis react to an entire ocean covered moon, would they want to abandon Earth, feeling they're have more freedom and safety there?

I don't think the space or alien stories that take place in the ocean are weird or silly. I love UFOs in the oceans story. Both of those Subby stories are some of my favorites. I just don't think the Atlanteans are interested in space travel, because they don't see the stars. There's little inspiration to explore space -- they could go their whole life without seeing stars. Exploring the deep dark places of the ocean? That I could see.

That said, I'd love to see Tamara (and Tiger Shark) searching the stars. I think they said in her origin story that theirs was the last of their kind, but I find that hard to believe. I would think there would have been plenty of ships sent out looking for a new home. And you could do a story about the Atlanteans abandoning the polluted Earth for another planet. I had the story idea that they would abandon Earth to another dimension, so I'm not adverse to that storyline. Though, in my idea, there are consequences for the Atlanteans leaving that would play out later.

Indeed. Water-breathers in space is always entertaining (IMHO):




LOL! That same artist put Namor back in that costume Reed Richards made for him...

I think that's first pic is on Plant Man's ship which takes place on Earth. Though ... weren't they in some sort dimensional pocket?

And YES! That's the pic. Don't care for that artist take on Namor. He looks old.

I wish we had more Namor and Triton team ups, love it when they are together.

I used to love Namor and Triton and the Inhumans meeting up, but Hickman ruined that for me too. Have we gotten any explanation for Black Bolt's betrayal? I mean, other than Hickman being unware that they were long time allies?

[Doombot]

Man, what a nightmare it is seeing loose ends of the 90s Namor series being wrapped up in the legitimately godawful 90s Fantastic Four books.

It takes until the end of Fantastic Four Unlimited #11 from 1995 for Namor to declare that he is the true and rightful ruler of Atlantis. Which he declares to nameless Portuguese soldiers in a city of corpses.
I believe that makes it over TEN years that Atlantis was ruled by do-nothing councils, villains, and weirdoes, and in which, there was nothing but war, death and destruction that entire time. (not that it pretty beforehand)

[Reviresco]

Kirby zigzags are awful, Kirby may be King, but even he gave us some turds every once in a while. But it was Buscema anyway, he was just using the Kirby zigzag for tigershark. Tirgershark's silhouette is timeless and is what works, details like the zigzag, the goofy face gills and the ears outside the costume all need to be binned. I think the face gills were left out pretty early. Only the odd artist remembers them.

Oh yeah. It was Big John. But yes, it's the same zig zags that are on Black Bolt's costume.

Gills binned ... again. LOL!

They've 'mutated' Tiger Shark's look so many times ... like every times he shows up he can look different.

[Reviresco]

Man, what a nightmare it is seeing loose ends of the 90s Namor series being wrapped up in the legitimately godawful 90s Fantastic Four books.

It takes until the end of Fantastic Four Unlimited #11 from 1995 for Namor to declare that he is the true and rightful ruler of Atlantis. Which he declares to nameless Portuguese soldiers in a city of corpses.
I believe that makes it over TEN years that Atlantis was ruled by do-nothing councils, villains, and weirdoes, and in which, there was nothing but war, death and destruction that entire time. (not that it pretty beforehand)

Wow. That second pic is similar to the movie.

Was it a decade ... I mean, he started out his 90s run off the throne, but he got it back in the Suma-Ket run, didn't he? Of course, that was a loss for him too, what with the Fen dying ... again. Hmmmm. Wait a minute .... You know, he DID spend most of that run off the throne. And then we didn't get Atlantis underwater again, for another five years, in the Jenkins and Jae Lee Inhumans run.

Well, hopefully the Atlanteans will have learned something about trying to dethrone Namor.

bwahahahahahah! Yeah, right.



Like I said. This is why we need a Namor ongoing, and it should concentrate on his undersea world, and build him back up, instead of the constant deconstruction.

[Reviresco]

I wouldn't mind seeing him come back as a sort of Bizarro-Namor and him having to deal with how badly his mother (and Vyrra) damaged his mind.

No redemption for Tigershark. He needs to become the ferocious monster he's always been meant to be, drop the "goon" criminal, tweak his costume and send him out for mayhem. Tamara and Diane, as well as Namor need to witness in horror as Todd Arliss is truly consumed forever by the Tigershark.

Oh no. Not Tamara and Diane!! I think Tiger Shark should be terrifying ... but I maintain he should be the dark mirror to Namor. I think they should also jack up the intelligence of Orca, give him a pod, and make him truly scary.

You could actually do a nice tragic storyline to finish off Llyron ... and maybe use it bring back Llyra.

[Doombot]

Oh no. Not Tamara and Diane!! I think Tiger Shark should be terrifying ... but I maintain he should be the dark mirror to Namor. I think they should also jack up the intelligence of Orca, give him a pod, and make him truly scary.

You could actually do a nice tragic storyline to finish off Llyron ... and maybe use it bring back Llyra.

Yup. Not into the pod bit, but Orka needs a revamp badly.

In my own, forever unrealized stories, I created a character who could fix these issues for me. In Sub-Mariner stories you see many creatures, not just monsters out of the deep, but oversized versions of real animals. I imagined there would have to be a program for either breeding or genetically altering (or both) animals for use within the Kingdom. In my stories, When Namor was near to completing the final version of Atlantis, he wanted huge eels to live in and guard the caverns that separated the open sea with Namor's new underground Atlantis. This character was the head of the ministry that worked on these things for the Throne. I wanted to create an Atlantean "mad scientist" type, a Doom or Dorcas that was from Atlantis and not a human. This character would have created these Imperial commissions with great skill, and was highly respected for both his genetic work and engineering, but he was secretly working on a project of his own, one that once exposed gets him expelled and banished from Atlantis. I hadn't decided whether he was cloning or using various genetics to create a woman for himself, either based on a lover that had been lost or a living woman who had rejected him. Either way Namor, after agonizing over what to do, decides to destroy all of the man's work and expel him, though he was on the fence of execution due to worries of exposing the New Atlantis. This character then leaves and creates his own moving fortress/castle that serves as both his home and laboratory. Which is all character background stuff.

The start of the story brings us to Tigershark who is undergoing massive painful mutations, explaining the many changes in him over the years building up to this point, where now the genetic enhancement work of Dorcas is breaking down and becoming unstable and fatal. This new character encounters Tigershark, and offers him a deal. Which would just be a MacGuffin, either he needs a new sample of Namor's DNA or some other quest, maybe some other item so he can re-create this woman he's in love with. Either way Tigershark ends up being not only stabilized, but strengthened and enhanced, and he no longer needs a suit, his skin IS his suit, better healing, he doesn't weaken on the surface etc. Tigershark gets a much needed update and Atlantis has a new science based supervillian. I would later work in how to work in updating Orka as well.

[Reviresco]

Yup. Not into the pod bit, but Orka needs a revamp badly.

In my own, forever unrealized stories, I created a character who could fix these issues for me. In Sub-Mariner stories you see many creatures, not just monsters out of the deep, but oversized versions of real animals. I imagined there would have to be a program for either breeding or genetically altering (or both) animals for use within the Kingdom. In my stories, When Namor was near to completing the final version of Atlantis, he wanted huge eels to live in and guard the caverns that separated the open sea with Namor's new underground Atlantis. This character was the head of the ministry that worked on these things for the Throne. I wanted to create an Atlantean "mad scientist" type, a Doom or Dorcas that was from Atlantis and not a human. This character would have created these Imperial commissions with great skill, and was highly respected for both his genetic work and engineering, but he was secretly working on a project of his own, one that once exposed gets him expelled and banished from Atlantis. I hadn't decided whether he was cloning or using various genetics to create a woman for himself, either based on a lover that had been lost or a living woman who had rejected him. Either way Namor, after agonizing over what to do, decides to destroy all of the man's work and expel him, though he was on the fence of execution due to worries of exposing the New Atlantis. This character then leaves and creates his own moving fortress/castle that serves as both his home and laboratory. Which is all character background stuff.

The start of the story brings us to Tigershark who is undergoing massive painful mutations, explaining the many changes in him over the years building up to this point, where now the genetic enhancement work of Dorcas is breaking down and becoming unstable and fatal. This new character encounters Tigershark, and offers him a deal. Which would just be a MacGuffin, either he needs a new sample of Namor's DNA or some other quest, maybe some other item so he can re-create this woman he's in love with. Either way Tigershark ends up being not only stabilized, but strengthened and enhanced, and he no longer needs a suit, his skin IS his suit, better healing, he doesn't weaken on the surface etc. Tigershark gets a much needed update and Atlantis has a new science based supervillian. I would later work in how to work in updating Orka as well.

Wow! So, this happens in present, with Namor trying to re-establish Atlantis?

I do think making Ikthon a traitor and eliminating the Master Scientist position was a major mistake. Atlantis should have more science leaders.

The strange beasts angle works with that holiday that Stuart Moore had in Namor the First Mutant, where they have the running of the beasts. Plus, IIRC, the Logmancer had some sort giant eel around his residence. So it would play nicely with your idea.

Man, there's alot you could do with a stabilized, but "improved" Tiger Shark.

The thing about Orca is that he should be the smartest, not the dumbest, of these animal based foes. Maybe his pod could just be regular / enhanced orcas, instead of hybrids, like Orca.

And of course, the best thing, is we get rid of a rogue named Dr. Dorcas. Worst. Name. Ever.

[Doombot]

Wow! So, this happens in present, with Namor trying to re-establish Atlantis?

I do think making Ikthon a traitor and eliminating the Master Scientist position was a major mistake. Atlantis should have more science leaders.

The strange beasts angle works with that holiday that Stuart Moore had in Namor the First Mutant, where they have the running of the beasts. Plus, IIRC, the Logmancer had some sort giant eel around his residence. So it would play nicely with your idea.

Man, there's alot you could do with a stabilized, but "improved" Tiger Shark.

The thing about Orca is that he should be the smartest, not the dumbest, of these animal based foes. Maybe his pod could just be regular / enhanced orcas, instead of hybrids, like Orca.

And of course, the best thing, is we get rid of a rogue named Dr. Dorcas. Worst. Name. Ever.

Right, this would be my story about "fixing" modern Atlantis and the 20 versions of the city and have come and gone. (I won't go too deep, as I've spoke about this before and don't want to bore readers in the thread) Namor and possibly Fen began this project in Namor's youth, under Thakorr's reign, to move to a stable, safe and secret location to make an ultimate "scared" Atlantis. Namor as a boy discovers deep caverns at the root of the seamounts that Antarctica rises out of, which lead deep beneath the sea floor, eventually opening into gigantic open planes, like agarthan, hollow earth, yet in the sea. Enough room for Atlantis, and many cities to build and grow for centuries. Namor works on this project, in secret for his entire adult life, hiding if from the world and anyone save the highest elites. The cities you see constantly being destroyed or abandoned and re-populated are basically military and government and their families, cities run by skeleton crews, as each decade, more and more Atlanteans can move into the hidden Sacred City, with a generation or more having already been born there. Namor has to live with the fact he has been sacrificing these skeleton cities and their people, while knowing the new city continues to be built. At the start of my story, Namor the city is complete, and Namor is recalling all Atlanteans to the city, and preparing to also go on an Imperial mission to reach out and re-forge relations with far flung colonies, provinces and peoples who believe Atlantis, for half a century, has all but abandoned them. Some provinces and territories have gravitated to Lemuria, or formed their own coalitions etc, as Attuma and his hordes, which I call the "Golden Shoal" have been all bust unstoppable in recent years.

So the new scientist villain would already be out there in his moving fortress, meeting Tigershark at this time.

Yes. Dorcas no more. Ever.