Dick Grayson/Robin/Nightwing/Batman Appreciation 2023.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I mean, he has the personality he grew up in as Robin which makes the maturity into Nightwing more poignant. And the Nightwing suit is one of the raddest costumes in the business.

He plays secondary in Bat-events because Bruce is the main character but he's still got his own solo book and appears in Titans. So why does he need to be Robin again outside character preference? And those NTT Titans stories were arguably helping him grow and become the man who became Nightwing after leaving behind Robin.

Even the 2003 cartoon showed a future version of Dick as Nightwing. We've seen the Robin -> Nightwing transition across multiple adaptions, cartoons, games, etc.

Ya know, when DD and Spidey team up, both manage to contribute equally, narratively and otherwise.

The same is not true of Batman and Nightwing, and it shouldn't be that way.

[Drako]

Ya know, when DD and Spidey team up, both manage to contribute equally, narratively and otherwise.

The same is not true of Batman and Nightwing, and it shouldn't be that way.

Everybody plays second fiddle to Batman, that's just a DC problem.

[Frontier]

But he was already being a mature adult as Robin?
Nightwing is a good design, but I think the brighter Robin colors suit Dick more.

He was sorting himself out as Robin for most of that run until he became Nightwing.

I feel like the Nightwing look is more versatile for an adult Dick.

I'm not saying he should go back to Robin now, because it's obviously way too late at this stage. Just that there was never a need for him to transition away from the identity to begin with. Especially as it was pretty transparently done for brand purposes outside of the story: they wanted Robin with Batman, but didn't want to take him away from the Titans. So Dick was written to give up his identity and basically have it appropriated by Bruce. And little did they know that a solo Batman without a Robin was going to become way more popular a few years down the line.

After he left Robin behind, his arc was pretty much done. Wolfman ran out of gas on the title in general.

Whether or not it was for brand purposes it still served his arc in the actual comic, showing him maturing and evolving past a childhood sidekick identity into his own man, and it's what he became known for as a solo character and that really helped develop him past even the Titans.

And no matter how popular Batman gets as a solo character they still bring back Robin for Dynamic Duo stuff. Otherwise none of the other Robins would've existed. And the entire point was that Dick can't do that anymore.

Yeah, and then he just continued on to do things he was already doing as Robin (lead the Titans, help Batman, go solo). So it's always seemed kind of pointless, and he lost the identity that was a bigger and arguably more versatile brand. You can't even remove the Nightwing identity from Robin because it is very dependent on the fact that it's "Robin as an adult."

I dunno I think Dick as Nightwing carries a very different vibe than Dick as Robin precisely because he isn't Robin any more and isn't Bruce's sidekick any more, especially when it comes to his relationships or role in the Batfamily.

If Dick were a perpetual Robin we'd never have had Dick and Damian as Batman and Robin, unless Damian is the only exception you're willing to make as far as the the Robins go.

Really the only value Dick as Robin still has is if you expect him to show up in Batman shows as Robin or as Robin in Titans but more adaptions have been showing him leading the Titans as Nightwing.

[Godlike13]

Have to remember Robin is a brand specifically aimed towards children. Even today Robin is sold with that in mind. So while Robin might be more of a house hold name, there are still limitations based on how Robin is sold. Whats more just because Dick became Nightwing doesn't mean they stopped selling him as Robin. They can and do still sell him as Robin. Nightwing just allows them to also sell Dick aimed at more mature audiences while also establishing an arc for the Robin brand.

[Frontier]

Have to remember Robin is a brand specifically aimed towards children. Even today Robin is sold with that in mind. So while Robin might be more of a house hold name, there are still limitations based on how Robin is sold. Whats more just because Dick became Nightwing doesn't mean they stopped selling him as Robin. They can and do still sell him as Robin. Nightwing just allows them to also sell Dick aimed at more mature audiences while also establishing an arc for the Robin brand.

Granted we did have the big "#@$% Batman" line with an adult Robin...

[Badou]

Robin is an iconic comic book hero and Nightwing isn't. So the idea that Nightwing has more pull or reach than Robin is a bit out there. I've made this point years back that I think Dick would have been better off if he never gave up the Robin identity. He'd probably have a higher ceiling as an individual character because of all the doors Robin opens. Robin is by far DC's premier young hero and to have every piece of media and content for Robin be with Dick Grayson in the mask would account for so much. Plus I think there is something special with a character keeping the same hero name since their introduction. Dick keeping the Robin name from the beginning of the Golden Age until now would have been impressive. It's the name he came up with on his own and is tied to his very first issue.

I've also said this before but the Robin name itself was done well. Most of the other kid sidekicks from that era had names that were derivatives from their adult counterpart, Kid Flash, Batgirl, Supergirl, Aqualad, and so on, but Robin was completely separate from Batman. Robin had his own colors and even his own logo. It's one of the reasons I think the character Robin was able to stand out in the Teen Titans cartoon with these other solo characters. It would have been weird for him to be called Batboy or something while running around with Starfire, Raven, Cyborg, and Beast Boy.

But I think in the end through creating new Robins has been the best move for DC as they now have several different characters they can pool together and use in different ways. They turned Robin into the strongest legacy identity in comics, but that also comes at the expense of each of the Robins cannibalizing each other at times. Even now Nightwing, Red Hood, Tim and his identities, and Damian all fall under the larger Robin umbrella. Things like giving Nightwing bird related symbols/elements, or even changing the color to red in the New 52 to match all the other Robins, are all things that categorize him under that Robin umbrella. Even how Tim and Damian are constantly stepping on each other for the Robin role now. So collectively Robin is an incredibly strong band for DC but the diffusion of the identity between so many characters can hurt them individually.

I think a lot of people are also looking at things through modern eyes too. Nightwing wasn't always in the position he is in now. For a lot of the 90s and even into the 00s for many Tim as Robin was looked at as a bigger hero than Dick as Nightwing. Nightwing kind of was stagnant in the Titans from the late 80s until the early 90s, and it probably wasn't until the success of Tim's own solo book that allowed DC to feel confident in giving Dick his first solo book as Nightwing, but in that era Tim was the one that was involved in more stories and interacted with more heroes it felt like too. It really felt like it wasn't until the Morrison Batman and Robin run where Dick's character elevated and started to be looked at differently across the larger DC fandom. Now it might sound like I'm being critical of Nightwing after saying all this, but I do think Nightwing has been very successful. I really like Nightwing, and usually when a character gives up an iconic identity, like a Robin, things don't turn out well for them in the long run but it worked for Nightwing in the end. I don't want that to be lost. It's just Robin is one of those few identities that operates at a different level to a Nightwing because of its iconic status.

Now if Dick had kept Robin for himself you kind of have to play the "What if..." game with all the scenarios that would have spawned from it, which is fun to do lol. Would DC have aged Dick down after the CoIE reboot as was originally pitched and move him back to the Bat franchise? How would that have effected all the changes the Batman franchise saw in the late 80s and early 90s with Dick as a young Robin? What happens with the Titans then? How does Death in the Family play out or does it even happen? Does Barbara get aged down to be Batgirl again and maybe never gets shot in The Killing Joke? Does Dick then become the Robin on the Young Justice team in the 90s? Would DC give Dick a Robin solo book at that time? Then the other path is what happens if Dick kept Robin and the Bat office just created a new identity for a Jason to use? Does Dick as Robin go down the same path he did as Nightwing, or maybe because of the Robin name does he get more opportunities in the late 80s and early 90s? Is Jason never killed off because he is using his own identity over Dick's? If so then is there no need to create Tim after? Just so many What Ifs to consider.

[Frontier]

Robin is an iconic comic book hero and Nightwing isn't. So the idea that Nightwing has more pull or reach than Robin is a bit out there. I've made this point years back that I think Dick would have been better off if he never gave up the Robin identity. He'd probably have a higher ceiling as an individual character because of all the doors Robin opens. Robin is by far DC's premier young hero and to have every piece of media and content for Robin be with Dick Grayson in the mask would account for so much. Plus I think there is something special with a character keeping the same hero name since their introduction. Dick keeping the Robin name from the beginning of the Golden Age until now would have been impressive. It's the name he came up with on his own and is tied to his very first issue.

I've also said this before but the Robin name itself was done well. Most of the other kid sidekicks from that era had names that were derivatives from their adult counterpart, Kid Flash, Batgirl, Supergirl, Aqualad, and so on, but Robin was completely separate from Batman. Robin had his own colors and even his own logo. It's one of the reasons I think the character Robin was able to stand out in the Teen Titans cartoon with these other solo characters. It would have been weird for him to be called Batboy or something while running around with Starfire, Raven, Cyborg, and Beast Boy.

But I think in the end through creating new Robins has been the best move for DC as they now have several different characters they can pool together and use in different ways. They turned Robin into the strongest legacy identity in comics, but that also comes at the expense of each of the Robins cannibalizing each other at times. Even now Nightwing, Red Hood, Tim and his identities, and Damian all fall under the larger Robin umbrella. Things like giving Nightwing bird related symbols/elements, or even changing the color to red in the New 52 to match all the other Robins, are all things that categorize him under that Robin umbrella. Even how Tim and Damian are constantly stepping on each other for the Robin role now. So collectively Robin is an incredibly strong band for DC but the diffusion of the identity between so many characters can hurt them individually.

I think a lot of people are also looking at things through modern eyes too. Nightwing wasn't always in the position he is in now. For a lot of the 90s and even into the 00s for many Tim as Robin was looked at as a bigger hero than Dick as Nightwing. Nightwing kind of was stagnant in the Titans from the late 80s until the early 90s, and it probably wasn't until the success of Tim's own solo book that allowed DC to feel confident in giving Dick his first solo book as Nightwing, but in that era Tim was the one that was involved in more stories and interacted with more heroes it felt like too. It really felt like it wasn't until the Morrison Batman and Robin run where Dick's character elevated and started to be looked at differently across the larger DC fandom. Now it might sound like I'm being critical of Nightwing after saying all this, but I do think Nightwing has been very successful. I really like Nightwing, and usually when a character gives up an iconic identity, like a Robin, things don't turn out well for them in the long run but it worked for Nightwing in the end. I don't want that to be lost. It's just Robin is one of those few identities that operates at a different level to a Nightwing because of its iconic status.

Now if Dick had kept Robin for himself you kind of have to play the "What if..." game with all the scenarios that would have spawned from it, which is fun to do lol. Would DC have aged Dick down after the CoIE reboot as was originally pitched and move him back to the Bat franchise? How would that have effected all the changes the Batman franchise saw in the late 80s and early 90s with Dick as a young Robin? What happens with the Titans then? How does Death in the Family play out or does it even happen? Does Barbara get aged down to be Batgirl again and maybe never gets shot in The Killing Joke? Does Dick then become the Robin on the Young Justice team in the 90s? Would DC give Dick a Robin solo book at that time? Then the other path is what happens if Dick kept Robin and the Bat office just created a new identity for a Jason to use? Does Dick as Robin go down the same path he did as Nightwing, or maybe because of the Robin name does he get more opportunities in the late 80s and early 90s? Is Jason never killed off because he is using his own identity over Dick's? If so then is there no need to create Tim after? Just so many What Ifs to consider.

I feel like Robin would've just held Dick because no matter what you can do with it I feel like there were a lot of expectations saddled with the identity that would've prevented some of the critical points of his character development.

[WonderNight]

Yeah. The reason why Nightwing could have "Batman lite" reputation in mainstream is due to him being considered "Robin trying to imitate Batman".

General audience would associate "night" and "wing" with Batman and assume Dick is trying to imitate him.

Which is why I'll always prefer a globe trotting nightwing over a city based nightwing anytime. It helps him with redundancy with the other bats

[Badou]

I feel like Robin would've just held Dick because no matter what you can do with it I feel like there were a lot of expectations saddled with the identity that would've prevented some of the critical points of his character development.

I don't think so. By 1984 Robin had been going to college since like 1969 or something? The character at that time wasn't really saddled as some kid character and was kind of off doing his own thing away from Batman. So I think that could have continued. Plus there was a adult Robin on Earth-2 back then as well. I just wonder what path the character would have gone down post CoIE if he had stayed as Robin. I think the identity could have aged with Dick over time, or if he was deaged because of it how does everything in the late 80s Batman franchise change with him being there when that is the era when Batman became DC's biggest property.

[Godlike13]

Granted we did have the big "#@$% Batman" line with an adult Robin...

Which was prelude to him becoming Nightwing.

[Badou]

Which was prelude to him becoming Nightwing.

They also had to then awkwardly explain what a "Nightwing" was with some made up story from a South American prison to explain why he would randomly go by Nightwing since I guess they didn't think the Superman thing would fit in the show.

[Konja7]

They also had to then awkwardly explain what a "Nightwing" was with some made up story from a South American prison to explain why he would randomly go by Nightwing since I guess they didn't think the Superman thing would fit in the show.

It's because the Nightwing name doesn't seem to have any apparent connection with Superman. You need to know the story that connect them to understand why Dick will say Nightwing was inspired by Superman.

Not to mention that general audience don't tend to connect Robin with Superman. So, even Dick saying he was inspired by Superman is going to seem weird.


That's why adaptations would never use "Nightwing was inspired by Superman" explanation. First, they would need to create a really strong connection between Dick and Superman. Second, they would need to create a story that explain the connection between Superman and Nightwing name.

[Godlike13]

They also had to then awkwardly explain what a "Nightwing" was with some made up story from a South American prison to explain why he would randomly go by Nightwing since I guess they didn't think the Superman thing would fit in the show.

It’s all made up story. The Superman connection is cool, but hardly integral.

[Rac7d*]

It's because the Nightwing name doesn't seem to have any apparent connection with Superman. You need to know the story that connect them to understand why Dick will say Nightwing was inspired by Superman.

Not to mention that general audience don't tend to connect Robin with Superman. So, even Dick saying he was inspired by Superman is going to seem weird.


That's why adaptations would never use "Nightwing was inspired by Superman" explanation. First, they would need to create a really strong connection between Dick and Superman. Second, they would need to create a story that explain the connection between Superman and Nightwing name.

Young justice was the opportunity to explain the Nightwing name and its connection to Superman lore but Nightwing stories or dick character was never a priority for that show.

[Frontier]

I don't think so. By 1984 Robin had been going to college since like 1969 or something? The character at that time wasn't really saddled as some kid character and was kind of off doing his own thing away from Batman. So I think that could have continued. Plus there was a adult Robin on Earth-2 back then as well. I just wonder what path the character would have gone down post CoIE if he had stayed as Robin. I think the identity could have aged with Dick over time, or if he was deaged because of it how does everything in the late 80s Batman franchise change with him being there when that is the era when Batman became DC's biggest property.

But in-story he was kind of grappling with the expectations of still being Robin and what that meant with growing older and how he was nearing a break from Bruce.

Young justice was the opportunity to explain the Nightwing name and its connection to Superman lore but Nightwing stories or dick character was never a priority for that show.

Same with a lot of characters.