Doctor Doom Appreciation 2023 - Scientist, Sorcerer, Romani King

[MichaelC]

I have posted this on some other boards...I really want to believe Marvel has a grand plan for Doom in the MCU...but I am equally afraid, they won't use him. You are correct that Kang is stepping in and taking the spot Doom should have. I've done a pretty good job at looking for interviews with Feige throughout the last few years and not ONE, not even a hint alluded that Doom was mentioned by him or his love/hate of the character. It almost seems like he is a "non character" which could be worse, a character of irrelevancy. Feige has expressed his love for the Fantastic 4. Only when Noah Hawley was suppose to write the Doctor Doom show did Noah discuss Feiges approach to him.

I just feel like Doom won't have a place in the MCU that makes sense anymore. I mean Kang or a variant could easily step in and be Reed Richards new nemesis...I guess there is nothing stopping Marvel from not even using the character. I mean why haven't they even name dropped Latveria yet? What harm would it be to mention it? I mean the Black Widow screenwriter said that he actually had it in the draft and they told him to remove it. It could have easily been part of the "United Nations" scene in Wakanda Forever when Queen Ramonda was talking to the various countries...could have panned over and saw a Latverian rep sitting with the countries name on a nameplate. We also made the assumption that the country that Moon Knight lands in the first episode was Doomstadt...I mean lets be honest it was about spot on as it could be...a castle up on the hill, small village below...easily could have been Latveria.

That's the problem...all these would have should have could have moments and NO actual proof/evidence that the character nor his nation even exist in the MCU....

I would have prioritized Doom and Latveria the MINUTE the rights were in Disney's hands. That is just me.

Doom has some problematic elements to him that Disney may be leery of. He's a Romani, and a Romani who knows witchcraft at that. Disney may look at the idea of a "Gypsy witch" with great reluctance. And if you remove the idea that his mom was originally a "Gypsy witch" whose actions resulted in her son becoming a "Gypsy warlock", then you've changed Doom so massively that he's barely Doom anymore. His whole look and everything else surrounding him is bound up in stereotypes about Eastern Europe. He's basically a patchwork of stereotypes about the Roma fused with stereotypes about Eastern Europe.

That doesn't mean Disney will never use him at all. But they will spend a long time slowly working on a way to sanitize him that doesn't result in something as bland as the 2005 movie Doom.

[Iron Maiden]

Doom has some problematic elements to him that Disney may be leery of. He's a Romani, and a Romani who knows witchcraft at that. Disney may look at the idea of a "Gypsy witch" with great reluctance. And if you remove the idea that his mom was originally a "Gypsy witch" whose actions resulted in her son becoming a "Gypsy warlock", then you've changed Doom so massively that he's barely Doom anymore. His whole look and everything else surrounding him is bound up in stereotypes about Eastern Europe. He's basically a patchwork of stereotypes about the Roma fused with stereotypes about Eastern Europe.

That doesn't mean Disney will never use him at all. But they will spend a long time slowly working on a way to sanitize him that doesn't result in something as bland as the 2005 movie Doom.

I also have my doubts that Doom's Romani back story will make it into the films. In the comics, Wanda and Pietro were Romani but there has been no mention of that in the MCU. The MCU did give us Sokovia though so that gives them a SE European background. My suspicion is that Latveria will not appear in the MCU and they may make Doom Sokovian. My wish would be that since that part of the world is turbulent in the MCU perhaps Doom can still make his rise in a part of Sokovia that secedes during a revolution. Then Doom creates the new country of Latveria.

Wanda's powers in the MCU seem more based on her being a mutant. Agatha Harkness is not one of her mentors like she was in the comics. But Dr Strange has learned his skills in magic but there is no reason why Doom in the MCU could have been self taught in magic and sorcery.

One hurdle might be linking Doom to the Fantastic Four and it's been a bit murky on what direction they will go with that. The MCU might just take a short cut and have the origin of the FF and Doom be that they are from the Multiverse and somehow they get merged into the current timeline of the movies.

[Doom Answers to No Master]

I also have my doubts that Doom's Romani back story will make it into the films. In the comics, Wanda and Pietro were Romani but there has been no mention of that in the MCU. The MCU did give us Sokovia though so that gives them a SE European background. My suspicion is that Latveria will not appear in the MCU and they may make Doom Sokovian. My wish would be that since that part of the world is turbulent in the MCU perhaps Doom can still make his rise in a part of Sokovia that secedes during a revolution. Then Doom creates the new country of Latveria.

Wanda's powers in the MCU seem more based on her being a mutant. Agatha Harkness is not one of her mentors like she was in the comics. But Dr Strange has learned his skills in magic but there is no reason why Doom in the MCU could have been self taught in magic and sorcery.

One hurdle might be linking Doom to the Fantastic Four and it's been a bit murky on what direction they will go with that. The MCU might just take a short cut and have the origin of the FF and Doom be that they are from the Multiverse and somehow they get merged into the current timeline of the movies.

See, the very things that you have said combined with some other ideas/posts, are the very things that scare me. The one character in all comics that we want more than anything to see done justice, makes me almost wish that if they can't get it right this time, then don't even bother using him or Latveria. At this rate, Kang will end the multiverse and then when the F4 arrive, they will have their enemies but Reed won't have Victor be his better half....its a shame that real world issues or stereotypes could potentially derail the single greatest, well-written character ever. Doom is a multi-layered villain with so many complex pieces...he deserves the best and I am afraid that Disney/Marvel Studios will drop the ball and fail.

Mind you, Matt Shakman's enthusiasm in the latest video interviews about the F4 gives me a micro glimmer of hope that he truly means what he says. If that translates to the team, then hopefully he will have a chance to give us Doom...but if not, I guess we at least hopefully have a comic accurate F4.

[MichaelC]

I also have my doubts that Doom's Romani back story will make it into the films. In the comics, Wanda and Pietro were Romani but there has been no mention of that in the MCU. The MCU did give us Sokovia though so that gives them a SE European background. My suspicion is that Latveria will not appear in the MCU and they may make Doom Sokovian. My wish would be that since that part of the world is turbulent in the MCU perhaps Doom can still make his rise in a part of Sokovia that secedes during a revolution. Then Doom creates the new country of Latveria.

Wanda's powers in the MCU seem more based on her being a mutant. Agatha Harkness is not one of her mentors like she was in the comics. But Dr Strange has learned his skills in magic but there is no reason why Doom in the MCU could have been self taught in magic and sorcery.

One hurdle might be linking Doom to the Fantastic Four and it's been a bit murky on what direction they will go with that. The MCU might just take a short cut and have the origin of the FF and Doom be that they are from the Multiverse and somehow they get merged into the current timeline of the movies.

See, what you described involves so many changes that it's not really Doom anymore. At which point you run into the 2005 problem, where he's been changed so much in the name of sanitizing his problematic elements that he's rather bland.

[Iron Maiden]

I have my doubts that the MCU will give us a very faithful Doom in the movies and they seem to be more focused on Kang for the next 3 years at least. But I won't be angry if they prove me wrong and go for it. I just think the MCU has a history of mishandling their villains, case in point: Ultron.

[megatillo]

Namor's origin in Black Panther was radically changed but I liked it. It would not be unexpected if something similar is done with Doom as well. Things that work well in the comic/animated universe don't necessarily translate well to movies so changes are frequently required.

Many of the MCU characters are not (and have not) been the same as the comic/animated versions but as long as it is enjoyable I'm OK with that. So far, none of the movie Dooms have been enjoyable but a good writer/director can change that. They don't have to match the comics to be compelling but they have to be interesting.

See, what you described involves so many changes that it's not really Doom anymore. At which point you run into the 2005 problem, where he's been changed so much in the name of sanitizing his problematic elements that he's rather bland.

[Iron Maiden]

Namor's origin in Black Panther was radically changed but I liked it. It would not be unexpected if something similar is done with Doom as well. Things that work well in the comic/animated universe don't necessarily translate well to movies so changes are frequently required.

Many of the MCU characters are not (and have not) been the same as the comic/animated versions but as long as it is enjoyable I'm OK with that. So far, none of the movie Dooms have been enjoyable but a good writer/director can change that. They don't have to match the comics to be compelling but they have to be interesting.

I think if writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McNeely from Captain America: The First Avenger worked on the script of whatever film Doom appears in, we have a better chance at getting a more faithful Doom. IMO the best realized Marvel villain so far is the Red Skull from their script. If fact I think it is the best done Marvel movie period. It was very faithful to the source material.

[MichaelC]

Movie Red Skull never felt as hate-filled as comicbook Red Skull. Comicbook Red Skull is, to a significant degree, Marvel's Joker: a cruel manipulator whose schemes prove that most people are just as ugly inside as he is. There's a kind of social commentary inherent in Skull's schemes that echos what you see from Ledger Joker. Movie Red Skull was just a generic conqueror.

[Doom Answers to No Master]

Since we have no idea if and when Doom makes his MCU debut or even his nation of Latveria, but I thought I would make a checklist of some of the things that HAS to be included for his debut...feel free to add anything you want...

*Name is retained...Victor Von Doom
*Speaks in the 3rd person
*Romani heritage
*Master at robotics AND sorcery
*Latveria is his birth nation...NOT Sokovia or anything else that the MCU might decide to change it to
*Speaking of Latveria, the way it looked in episode 1 of Moon Knight but beefed up a bit is how I would picture the country...Frankenstein with Boris Karloff but modernized with Doom's tech
*Reed Richards is his arch-rival/calls him "Richards!" out of contempt
*Love for his mother/willingness to go above all normal means to get her out of Hell/Mephisto/Cthon's realm
*Truly believes that conquest will bring about a better world for all
*Comic book accurate armor
*Accent (think Mads Mikkelsen voicing him in the armor) or if need be we have 3 actors play him (Victor in his younger days, physical actor in armor, voice actor)

[Iron Maiden]

Movie Red Skull never felt as hate-filled as comicbook Red Skull. Comicbook Red Skull is, to a significant degree, Marvel's Joker: a cruel manipulator whose schemes prove that most people are just as ugly inside as he is. There's a kind of social commentary inherent in Skull's schemes that echos what you see from Ledger Joker. Movie Red Skull was just a generic conqueror.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. First of all, Heath Ledger's Joker is bat guano crazy and keeps changing the story as to how his face came to be messed up. I don't see much social commentary there. I don't see any social commentary in the Red Skull character in the comics either. IMO You are giving him more credit than he deserves.

But this thread is about Doctor Doom so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that and you can discuss the Red Skull in his own thread

[Iron Maiden]

Since we have no idea if and when Doom makes his MCU debut or even his nation of Latveria, but I thought I would make a checklist of some of the things that HAS to be included for his debut...feel free to add anything you want...

*Name is retained...Victor Von Doom
*Speaks in the 3rd person
*Romani heritage
*Master at robotics AND sorcery
*Latveria is his birth nation...NOT Sokovia or anything else that the MCU might decide to change it to
*Speaking of Latveria, the way it looked in episode 1 of Moon Knight but beefed up a bit is how I would picture the country...Frankenstein with Boris Karloff but modernized with Doom's tech
*Reed Richards is his arch-rival/calls him "Richards!" out of contempt
*Love for his mother/willingness to go above all normal means to get her out of Hell/Mephisto/Cthon's realm
*Truly believes that conquest will bring about a better world for all
*Comic book accurate armor
*Accent (think Mads Mikkelsen voicing him in the armor) or if need be we have 3 actors play him (Victor in his younger days, physical actor in armor, voice actor)

I don't think we've had any indication from Marvel that what we saw in Moon Night was Latveria. We got fooled already with Kang in the Loki series. Most people thought that fortress seen there was Doom's castle until He Who Remains/Kang made his debut

[Doom Answers to No Master]

I don't think we've had any indication from Marvel that what we saw in Moon Night was Latveria. We got fooled already with Kang in the Loki series. Most people thought that fortress seen there was Doom's castle until He Who Remains/Kang made his debut

I should have worded it better...but tell me that seeing that sequence in MK Episode 1, didn't make you think it was Latveria....even if not said, it had that vibe.

[megatillo]

I agree, if the movie Red Skull had been anything like the comic book Red Skull it wouldn't be very entertaining. He is typically portrayed as the most evil, hate-filled, sadistic, and repugnant human being in Marvel comics with zero redeeming qualities or characteristics. Maybe Cletus Casady is worse -- they are close. MCU wisely played Red Skull more as a Hydra/science leader and glossed over much of the ideology that drives him in the comics. There was a Marvel/DC crossover once where the Joker worked with the Red Skull and even Joker didn't support the Nazis. Joker's excuse for his horrors is he is disconnected from reality. Red Skull knows exactly what he does and why. A Marvel movie audience is a bit too family friendly for a comic-accurate Red Skull.

Movie Red Skull never felt as hate-filled as comicbook Red Skull. Comicbook Red Skull is, to a significant degree, Marvel's Joker: a cruel manipulator whose schemes prove that most people are just as ugly inside as he is. There's a kind of social commentary inherent in Skull's schemes that echos what you see from Ledger Joker. Movie Red Skull was just a generic conqueror.

[Iron Maiden]

I agree, if the movie Red Skull had been anything like the comic book Red Skull it wouldn't be very entertaining. He is typically portrayed as the most evil, hate-filled, sadistic, and repugnant human being in Marvel comics with zero redeeming qualities or characteristics. Maybe Cletus Casady is worse -- they are close. MCU wisely played Red Skull more as a Hydra/science leader and glossed over much of the ideology that drives him in the comics. There was a Marvel/DC crossover once where the Joker worked with the Red Skull and even Joker didn't support the Nazis. Joker's excuse for his horrors is he is disconnected from reality. Red Skull knows exactly what he does and why. A Marvel movie audience is a bit too family friendly for a comic-accurate Red Skull.

I am glad you are agree with me. I feel that it was wise for the script for the movie doesn't directly bring up Nazis. The only thing I recall is at the beginning when Steve is desperately trying to enlist in the army, Stanley Tucci's character Dr. Erskine says "So you want to kill some Nazis?" in a teasing way. IIRC his character is Jewish or at least implied to be.

[Iron Maiden]

I should have worded it better...but tell me that seeing that sequence in MK Episode 1, didn't make you think it was Latveria....even if not said, it had that vibe.

It did but we never got much indication on what country that was taking place in.

Another thing that I think can be overdone is the speaking in the third person. It sometimes makes for awkward phrasing in the dialogue. I am OK with him using it very seldom in fact. He should never for example say that with Reed. He's smart enough not to do it since Reed knows him from a long way back and it would not impress him.