Doctor Doom Appreciation 2023 - Scientist, Sorcerer, Romani King

[Iron Maiden]

And a new year of Doom begins! Happy new year, every one!


Yeah, romani people were heavily persecuted in Latveria by the ruling Fortunov family. Doom was the one who, by absurd, brought freedom to his people and the country. But your thesis about Latveria being a german principality is in line with the first version of the country, when Stan Lee placed it in the bavarian Alps, and it also made sense at the time that latverians had german names.
I personally like the modern geography of Latveria better. The Balkans are a way more interesting area than Germany, a place we don’t know much about since it was hidden behind the iron curtain for so long. And, let me tell you, the old trope of villains being German has become pretty boring and outdated! Germans are really kind people once you get to know them


“Von” is a particle used in german surnames that means “of”, exactly like the scottish “Mc”. Literally Doom’s name means “Victor of the Doom family”. The “von” was mostly used in noble families, but isn’t a prerogative. So, yeah, Doom has definetely a german/austrian ancestry, maybe his family reached Latveria during the Austro-Hungarian empire which indeed included the area where Latveria is now… but being a family from a nomadic ethnic group, who knows where they came from! Romani is an ethnic group and a culture, not a nationality, they don’t care about nationalities at all. They’re free. Their very name means “free people”.

I seem to remember it was indeed hinted somewhere that Doom was the rightful heir to Latveria, though it was never brought up again. Was it in Brubaker’s Winter Soldier? Am I’m making it up? Help!

I know what you mean....I think it was a Brubaker story but it didn't take place in Winter Soldier...it was the Captain America 65th Anniversary Special and it was written by Ed Brubaker. This is one of those dangling and neglected plots because Brubaker would leave Marvel shortly after this. You can see that Brubaker was clearly implying that there was either an ancestor of Doom's that was a baron or maybe Doom himself time traveling.

[Iron Maiden]

This image and the one before it was done by Steve Epting since the comic had multiple chapters with multiple artist. AFAIK, this was never followed up on.

[ImperiusWrecked]

That is a bit vague. To be sure the "Von Doom" name implies it but we know his birth parents were both Romani. Perhaps Victor's father is half German, half Romani. We've never seen a writer/editor come up with a family tree so it's anyone's guess. I think over the years Kang is no longer considered a relative and he has been one of the few possible family relations other than his parents.

Werner is confirmed to be full Romani just like Cynthia in the Books of Doom Omnibus

He was born to a small, central European principality of Latveria to a Roma father and mother believed to be a witch.

I don't like any implication of Doom being german just bc of the Von Doom last name, or how many times Marvel tries to push Nazi imagery on Doom, he's a dictator yes but he isn't Hitler and was never modeled after him, to erase the reasons for his anger and hatred towards the world for how they mistreated his people both before, during WWll, and up to this day is to erase a huge part of why Doom is Doom. If it wasn't for the bigotry and hatred towards the Zefiro people and all the things they had to endure it wouldn't have molded the 616 Doom into who he is as a person. He was on the road to becoming Doom long before Reed Richards.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Thanks Doomscribe. I did find some of these on Marvel Unlimited but I see there were different titles.

I thin there were two different series which is why the issues might confuse people!

And thanks for the list DoomScribe!

[ImperiusWrecked]

I very specifically recall a comic issue where it's stated Werner is also Romani as well, so when I run across it again I will post here since this year I'm planning on reading all of Doom in published order since I want to go over missing gaps in my reading!

[Iron Maiden]

The Doctor Doom omnibus is a very good way to go about it. I got mine last summer and I like all the bonus features at the end too. It takes you as far as Books of Doom so there is a lot of newer stuff not there. But it is over 2000 pages so they really couldn't fit too much more! One series I don't have in a collected version is Infamous Iron Man by Bendis and Maleev. For now I just have the single issues. That's one that crosses over in Invincible Iron man too. Also, Hickman's Secret Wars from 2015. I also like the Secret Wars lead up in New Avengers. So there's enough there for another Doom volume, maybe as one of those Epic Collections.

I did find this web site called the Complete Marvel Reading Order where you can look up a character and it will give you a reading list in order of publication date. So you might want to use that for Namor also. This will help you fill some gaps. I am not sure just how complete it is but it has 25 web pages of entries. When I was testing it out I find it even has the famous last page appearance of Doom by Jim Steranko in his Strange Tales #167. I am a big fan of Steranko's Nick Fury series so I was glad to see that included. Link to Doctor Doom Reading Order section

[DoomScribe]

The Doctor Doom omnibus is a very good way to go about it. I got mine last summer and I like all the bonus features at the end too. It takes you as far as Books of Doom so there is a lot of newer stuff not there. But it is over 2000 pages so they really couldn't fit too much more! One series I don't have in a collected version is Infamous Iron Man by Bendis and Maleev. For now I just have the single issues. That's one that crosses over in Invincible Iron man too. Also, Hickman's Secret Wars from 2015. I also like the Secret Wars lead up in New Avengers. So there's enough there for another Doom volume, maybe as one of those Epic Collections.

I did find this web site called the Complete Marvel Reading Order where you can look up a character and it will give you a reading list in order of publication date. So you might want to use that for Namor also. This will help you fill some gaps. I am not sure just how complete it is but it has 25 web pages of entries. When I was testing it out I find it even has the famous last page appearance of Doom by Jim Steranko in his Strange Tales #167. I am a big fan of Steranko's Nick Fury series so I was glad to see that included. Link to Doctor Doom Reading Order section

I should compare their list to mine one day. I usually find mistakes and omissions. More omissions than anything, really.

In my list, I try to stick to a criteria as to what constitutes an actual appearance of Dr Doom, so I have a separate data list of those that aren't really appearances at all. For instance, those last two entries for Timeless #1 and Midnight Sons #4 would be classified as "non-appearance". Doom's likeness is used far too often in Marvel, so you have to make a choice.

The trouble is, if you don't know those other "appearances" exist, how do you refute it? Also, what to do about Doombots (particularly Doombots that act like they are Dr Doom), Kristoff (who was the defacto Dr Doom for months or more), and other fakers and dopplegangers? It does get a bit overwhelming at times.
ds

[Iron Maiden]

I should compare their list to mine one day. I usually find mistakes and omissions. More omissions than anything, really.

In my list, I try to stick to a criteria as to what constitutes an actual appearance of Dr Doom, so I have a separate data list of those that aren't really appearances at all. For instance, those last two entries for Timeless #1 and Midnight Sons #4 would be classified as "non-appearance". Doom's likeness is used far too often in Marvel, so you have to make a choice.

The trouble is, if you don't know those other "appearances" exist, how do you refute it? Also, what to do about Doombots (particularly Doombots that act like they are Dr Doom), Kristoff (who was the defacto Dr Doom for months or more), and other fakers and dopplegangers? It does get a bit overwhelming at times.
ds

I agree....it does get daunting. Doom has probably more last page appearances than just about any character I can think of. Some are more significant than others, like Daredevil #36, probably one of the best surprise appearances written by Stan Lee.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I think there should be categories for Doom, Doombots, Kristoff as Doom, etc. to make it easier, and I personally don't count things like "Doom telling Ororo that the Doom in X-Men vs F4 was a doombot during their dinner on mars" because it happened decades ago, and idk why the writer decided to make it a doombot only recently? It makes zero sense and if they keep making things like doombots for stuff like that then doom's hardly ever in anything. I believe doombots need to be shown on page they are a bot by revealing themselves/acting like a bot/exploding, but Marvel does as it does I suppose.

S.W.O.R.D. #7



Also I know there is another instance of Doom/the comics talking of Werner's background with a picture of Werner and Cynthia but at least here it's solidly canon that he is Romani as stated by Doom himself

Power Pack (1984) #53

[ImperiusWrecked]

The Doctor Doom omnibus is a very good way to go about it. I got mine last summer and I like all the bonus features at the end too. It takes you as far as Books of Doom so there is a lot of newer stuff not there. But it is over 2000 pages so they really couldn't fit too much more! One series I don't have in a collected version is Infamous Iron Man by Bendis and Maleev. For now I just have the single issues. That's one that crosses over in Invincible Iron man too. Also, Hickman's Secret Wars from 2015. I also like the Secret Wars lead up in New Avengers. So there's enough there for another Doom volume, maybe as one of those Epic Collections.

I did find this web site called the Complete Marvel Reading Order where you can look up a character and it will give you a reading list in order of publication date. So you might want to use that for Namor also. This will help you fill some gaps. I am not sure just how complete it is but it has 25 web pages of entries. When I was testing it out I find it even has the famous last page appearance of Doom by Jim Steranko in his Strange Tales #167. I am a big fan of Steranko's Nick Fury series so I was glad to see that included. Link to Doctor Doom Reading Order section

Thanks for the link! I will keep a record of my own reading journey and see how it compares! I was supposed to do all this reading last year but I got very distracted with Namor in the mcu news all year XD

[Iron Maiden]

I can understand that....I hope we will have soon have a chance to be similarly distracted when Doom is finally added to the MCU. Marvel / Disney sure is keeping that one a big secret.

[DoomScribe]

I think there should be categories for Doom, Doombots, Kristoff as Doom, etc. to make it easier, and I personally don't count things like "Doom telling Ororo that the Doom in X-Men vs F4 was a doombot during their dinner on mars" because it happened decades ago, and idk why the writer decided to make it a doombot only recently? It makes zero sense and if they keep making things like doombots for stuff like that then doom's hardly ever in anything. I believe doombots need to be shown on page they are a bot by revealing themselves/acting like a bot/exploding, but Marvel does as it does I suppose.

Exactly. I usually make a note that an appearance is a Doombot (they are doing Doom's will, after all), but I don't take much heed of retcons after the fact. The retcon could easily be retconned as another deception, so to do so is pointless.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I can understand that....I hope we will have soon have a chance to be similarly distracted when Doom is finally added to the MCU. Marvel / Disney sure is keeping that one a big secret.

I really hope they do well with Doom this time! but yeah is there any news on a f4 movie? many people are saying doom won't be the first villain

Exactly. I usually make a note that an appearance is a Doombot (they are doing Doom's will, after all), but I don't take much heed of retcons after the fact. The retcon could easily be retconned as another deception, so to do so is pointless.

exactly, like unless its a plot point that it is a doom bot then its pretty pointless imo

[Iron Maiden]

I really hope they do well with Doom this time! but yeah is there any news on a f4 movie? many people are saying doom won't be the first villain

The only news I've seen is that the casting of John Kraskinski was only that one time appearance and he's hasn't had any communication from the studio about him returning to film the FF movie that is currently scheduled for 2025.

[Iron Maiden]

Going back a bit on to the discussion of Dooms relatives, here's a page from Doom 2099 #24 where he is fighting his doppleganger and making random uncontrolled time jumps during the battle. Here we see what Doom thinks may be his father as his child....but is the woman next to him perhaps Doom's grandmother?