T'Challa: The Black Panther Appreciation 2023

[Emperorjones]

I read the issue. One thing not being talked about is Wakanda being okay with caste-discrimination. While T'Challa got a jab in at the floundering democratic government not doing anything about it, that made me wonder why hadn't he? Right now, Beisa being trans adds nothing to the story, but that said, what exactly is the story? Where is all this going? In the scene where T'Challa and Beisa are jumping across rooftops and he's asking her to let him help her, I realized that T'Challa is incidental to whatever story Ewing is writing. Now, that's better than him being torn down as the worst of the worst, but still, even Ridley's T'Challa wound up also being incidental to his story.

T'Challa in the Coates Era (which I still consider him in under Ewing) serves as proxy, as THE problem (most noxiously under Ridley), but it's rare that he's actually needed (to be fair I only read a smidgen of Coates's run so maybe we get that in his Intergalactic Empire arc). In the Coates Era, we get a lot of why he's not needed, or how he's messed everything up, or how many shortcomings he has, but nothing much about why he's needed, why must it be him that saves the day in a book with his own name. Instead, we get the argument that "Black Panther" isn't about him, that that's just a mantle. That said, they haven't been able to excise T'Challa from his book because all the non-T'Challa Wakanda-focused comics projects have failed or were short-lived. Even the ones that had him in there but weren't about him (like Coates's The Crew or Agents of Wakanda) didn't last.

With Ewing, we learn that T'Challa knows nothing about the rampant crime and powerful crime families in a city named after his father. And we've seen that what goes on there seemingly involves Beisa a lot more than him, so this is Beisa's story. And we get T'Challa hard up to hang out with Changamire's son or tag along with Beisa in stopping the crime families, but what does any of this do for T'Challa as a character? I hated the premise of the Liss run, however, Liss used that premise to have T'Challa challenge and prove himself to himself.

I thought the issue flowed well enough, though not much happened to push the story forward. I'm still liking the artwork. I feel the new BP design is too busy, but it looks nice. I really liked the redesign for Deathlok. Ewing is good with world building, but she might be forgetting that most people don't stick around for pretty worlds, they want to care about the characters in those worlds.

[skyvolt2000]

Honestly its not really a race issue, its just bagging writers of bad quality with bad ideas.

Like not every white writer is an Al Ewing, Jonathan Hickman, and Kelly Thompson. Plenty are along the lines of Matthew Rosenberg, Ed Brisson, and Tini Howard who are either mediocre otherwise or straight up awful. Shitty writers are universal to every group.

There are plenty of great black writers, Marvel just hasn't been bringing them in for the character.

One MAJOR difference.

Those non-black crappy writers KEEP getting work.

As many folks cried and complained about Joshua Williamson-he still did an event for DC Comics. How many books do they keep getting?
As Gail Simone and others have said plenty of non-black writers kept getting work while McDuffie got passed over.

Pretty much all the black writers that were at DC earlier are now gone. The non-black ones who are still getting all levels of complaints are still getting work.
And eventually they become the Hickman or Thompsons of the world because eventually they get on the right title. As we saw with Al Ewing (who was always great) with Hulk.

While we don't get that no matter how good or bad we are.

Somebody can't tell me Rodney Barnes, Brandon Thomas, Brandon Easton and others can't world build. They have done it.
Priest is doing it at Dynamite. Certain folks can complain but he has done more with the women of Vampirella than anything Marvel has done with the women of Wakanda.

So the question is why can't Marvel bring in some folks for T'Challa???

Heck they dug up a bunch for the new Sam Wilson book in 2024.

[Ra-El]

Part of the problem, imo, is that Marvel keep going after writers they think will bring attention and prestige from people from outside the comics book crowd.

I'm not saying they aren't talented, even if I didn't liked what Coates and Ridley did with the character. The real problem is that because Marvel goes after a writer who is famous or respected in other mediums, they limit the amount of talent they can go after and usually get someone without that much comic book experience.

If it comes to choosing between the experience, talent and proven track record of Brian Edward Hill, David Walker, etc, or picking a celebrated journalist or screenwriter, Marvel have show they will go for the later.

[Agent Z]

So the logic is that he never looked into her when she was a thief but now that she's a partner there's no need to look into her?

She has shown no malicious intent against him and the worst thing she's been is a thief. She's already proven she isn't T'Challa's enemy.

I wouldn't be nitpicking if this wasn't used as a slight dig at the titular character for her soliloquy

I could understand having an issue with T'Challa being written as transphobic or finding transgender people incomprehensible but that is not what is happening here. He has a brief misunderstanding and doesn't miss a beat when the obvious clue is given. Ewing is not writing T'Challa as stupid just because he didn't immediately realise she is a trans woman.

last run was just bad writing and him being cautious has always been a thing .
we want semi paranoid Tchalla back not what we have now

Semi paranoid T'Challa is what got us the last story arc in the first place.

If Susan Storm, who is a good friend of his, was not spared from a smell test back in the days, then yes, it is natural to expect due diligence from him towards Natima.

So do you guys want T'Challa to be less like Batman or not? Because this disregard for other people's privacy and boundaries is a classic Batman trait.

[Agent Z]

Black people are a lot of different things, but I still would like to see the premier Black superhero, and many Black superheroes be written from an informed Black experience, and I think that can most easily come from Black creatives. I'm leery of the idea of Black characters simply becoming mouthpieces for white creators, who might just deracialize the character due to caution or fear of invoking a backlash. Of course, that doesn't mean that Black creatives might not do the same thing, or that their version of the Black experience might differ from, or even grate against, my own (which happens a lot in not just comics these days).

I don't think "race" is separate from "humanity" and I think our attempts to cleave these two ideas has led to some problems that disconnect Black characters from more genuine Black experience they are supposed to inhabit, exhibit, or represent. This might make non-Black writers skittish to delve into, but it also opens the door for white-owned corporations to just use Black creatives as the faces for things they want to say but know it wouldn't fly as easily if it came from non-Black creatives. And this also opens the door for Black creatives, with their own personal agendas or beefs, to trade in on their melanin as well.

I think about how Dwayne McDuffie wrote T'Challa and Storm in his New Fantastic Four or how Eric Wallace wrote the interplay of Vixen and the Black Tattooed Man in (I think) one of the Titans books. It's a kind of nuance that I find few non-Black writers have when it comes to writing Black characters. Doesn't mean they are bad writers, but when people know that nuance it makes it special to read because you can feel it.

If there's still a paltry number of Black creatives at Marvel and DC, and we start saying that they can't even write Black Panther, then who are they going to write or get a chance at? I don't think only Black creatives can write only Black characters, and I would like to see them get more opportunities on other books, but until that's the case, I am leery about even denying them a chance to write the Black characters. My concern right now is DC, Marvel, etc. picking Black creatives for these books who either don't like the characters they are writing, don't like themselves, or don't like straight Black males (though they are writing books about straight Black males, or straight Black male characters are in the books). I'm not too hung up on how good or bad the writers are right out the gate necessarily, because across the board it's been iffy when it comes to creatives these days and I'm willing to give people time and a chance-sometimes-to improve.

I'm not seeing anything in Ewing's run that suggests she doesn't like straight black males. No one has accused Christopher Priest of hating black women based on how he wrote Nakia, Monica Lynn or Queen Divine Justice (whom he admitted to basing on his niece).

[Ezyo1000]

She has shown no malicious intent against him and the worst thing she's been is a thief. She's already proven she isn't T'Challa's enemy.


I could understand having an issue with T'Challa being written as transphobic or finding transgender people incomprehensible but that is not what is happening here. He has a brief misunderstanding and doesn't miss a beat when the obvious clue is given. Ewing is not writing T'Challa as stupid just because he didn't immediately realise she is a trans woman.



Semi paranoid T'Challa is what got us the last story arc in the first place.



So do you guys want T'Challa to be less like Batman or not? Because this disregard for other people's privacy and boundaries is a classic Batman trait.

we are literally introduced to T'Challa having learned everything about the FF to he can systemically beat each member. He joined the Avengers to spy on them, he learns everything he can about his opponents. This isn't a Batman trait. T'Challa is paranoid because of his father's death.

I would much rather have the pragmatic, trust but verify T'Challa that he had always been. Using last tub as an example doesn't really work because all logic was missing from that run

[Redjack]

1)

T'Challa is nothing like Batman and everything they do to make him Batman makes him less unique, MORE derivative and, ultimately, less successful. It has nothing to do with the quality of the writing or writer.


2)

So far, I've done full pitches on...

MARVEL – PASSED

BLACK PANTHER (pre-Coates)
RONIN – A "Night Thrasher" team book where he takes the RONIN armor and forms his own team.
JERICHO DRUMM (Brother Voodoo) basically would have been Marvel's answer to Hellraiser
BLUE MARVEL - no look Pass (possibly they already have something in the works. or they just don't care to push the character right now. no idea.)
BLACK PANTHER again, based on BPQ (basically continuing from where the series stopped) – No Look Pass



THE PROWLER (Hobie, not Aaron)



MARVEL - SOLD

MOSAIC
SOLO
THE SPIDER - spider-verse story
HORNET mini – evolved into issues of Spider-Man and Spider-geddon
BLACK PANTHER: King in Black
BLACK PANTHER (LEXUS mini) - 2 CHAPTERS

MARVEL - LIMBO

HORNET & THE SLINGERS

THE SPIDER (616 version) - ghosted, so far

DC - PASSED

LOIS LANE - Lois having Indiana Jones/Lara Croft/ Deep Cover investigations into the DCU and proving she is FAR more dangerous than her super-powered husband. Hard pass.
VIXEN
GLOBAL GUARDIANS
SON OF VULCAN mini (Who?)
THE OUTSIDERS- COMPLETE revamp - "interesting" but, no
BATWOMAN & BATGIRL(Cassandra) (ZERO interest)
YOUNG NEW GODS

DC - SOLD

VIXEN one-shot
JOHN STEWART mini
GREEN LANTERN
BLOOD SYNDICATE


DC - LIMBO

BLACKHAWK revamp at Dan Didio's request. He's gone so I figure it's dead.

In addition, over twenty "springboard " pitches on everything from the Imperial Guard to Wonder Girl. Those were cut off for a host of reasons having to do with, mostly, company goals taking the characters in different directions or just zero interest.

So, after the current pitches (5 for each company) get accepted or rejected, I'm done. Back to my own IP. In fact, regardless of how those pitches result, it's back to my own stuff.

[Ezyo1000]

I'm not seeing anything in Ewing's run that suggests she doesn't like straight black males. No one has accused Christopher Priest of hating black women based on how he wrote Nakia, Monica Lynn or Queen Divine Justice (whom he admitted to basing on his niece).

I'm confused, Those characters had nuance to them, especially Monica and QDJ, they weren't ragged on or told they were shit or constantly put down. This isn't really a good comparison at all. The only thing you could argue is that he used a trope for Nakia, but his characters had depth.

[milesvspeter]

She has shown no malicious intent against him and the worst thing she's been is a thief. She's already proven she isn't T'Challa's enemy.


I could understand having an issue with T'Challa being written as transphobic or finding transgender people incomprehensible but that is not what is happening here. He has a brief misunderstanding and doesn't miss a beat when the obvious clue is given. Ewing is not writing T'Challa as stupid just because he didn't immediately realise she is a trans woman.



Semi paranoid T'Challa is what got us the last story arc in the first place.



So do you guys want T'Challa to be less like Batman or not? Because this disregard for other people's privacy and boundaries is a classic Batman trait.

Black panther was never like Batman. Batman was silly before 1966. When Black Panther came out in 1966, DC made him Black Panther.

[Emperorjones]

I'm not seeing anything in Ewing's run that suggests she doesn't like straight black males. No one has accused Christopher Priest of hating black women based on how he wrote Nakia, Monica Lynn or Queen Divine Justice (whom he admitted to basing on his niece).

I suggested three categories of Black writers that Marvel and DC seem to want: people who don' t like the characters they are writing, people who don' t like themselves, and people who have a bias against straight Black males.

When it comes to the bias against straight Black males (which you singled out), I'm not talking about Ewing's writing on this title personally per se, but the overall climate at Marvel Comics, especially the Coates Era. Ewing is a Coates protege or friend, so make of that what you will. She also made some questionable decisions regarding some of the Black male characters in her Photon miniseries, but I can' t say that was anti-straight Black male bias. At this point in her BP run, I don't sense Coates's disdain or Ridley's hostility. But I am starting to sense a disinterest in T'Challa. The Priest comparison doesn't fit because none of those characters were the lead characters, and none of them were as deconstructed and humbled as T'Challa has been in a title they headlined.

[Ezyo1000]

1)

T'Challa is nothing like Batman and everything they do to make him Batman makes him less unique, MORE derivative and, ultimately, less successful. It has nothing to do with the quality of the writing or writer.


2)

So far, I've done full pitches on...

MARVEL – PASSED

BLACK PANTHER (pre-Coates)
RONIN – A "Night Thrasher" team book where he takes the RONIN armor and forms his own team.
JERICHO DRUMM (Brother Voodoo) basically would have been Marvel's answer to Hellraiser
BLUE MARVEL - no look Pass (possibly they already have something in the works. or they just don't care to push the character right now. no idea.)
BLACK PANTHER again, based on BPQ (basically continuing from where the series stopped) – No Look Pass



THE PROWLER (Hobie, not Aaron)



MARVEL - SOLD

MOSAIC
SOLO
THE SPIDER - spider-verse story
HORNET mini – evolved into issues of Spider-Man and Spider-geddon
BLACK PANTHER: King in Black
BLACK PANTHER (LEXUS mini) - 2 CHAPTERS

MARVEL - LIMBO

HORNET & THE SLINGERS

THE SPIDER (616 version) - ghosted, so far

DC - PASSED

LOIS LANE - Lois having Indiana Jones/Lara Croft/ Deep Cover investigations into the DCU and proving she is FAR more dangerous than her super-powered husband. Hard pass.
VIXEN
GLOBAL GUARDIANS
SON OF VULCAN mini (Who?)
THE OUTSIDERS- COMPLETE revamp - "interesting" but, no
BATWOMAN & BATGIRL(Cassandra) (ZERO interest)
YOUNG NEW GODS

DC - SOLD

VIXEN one-shot
JOHN STEWART mini
GREEN LANTERN
BLOOD SYNDICATE


DC - LIMBO

BLACKHAWK revamp at Dan Didio's request. He's gone so I figure it's dead.

In addition, over twenty "springboard " pitches on everything from the Imperial Guard to Wonder Girl. Those were cut off for a host of reasons having to do with, mostly, company goals taking the characters in different directions or just zero interest.

So, after the current pitches (5 for each company) get accepted or rejected, I'm done. Back to my own IP. In fact, regardless of how those pitches result, it's back to my own stuff.

The fact that your BP pitches, both of the. Were rejected is so depressing. Like I don't at all believe Marvel is satisfied with the last 3 runs of BP, or maybe they don't care because they have no competition,

But given the ultimate universe coming up and the previous and current mediocrity that is the BP solo, Marvel should want to make some changes to the franchise to get it back to status quo

[BlackClaw]

The fact that your BP pitches, both of the. Were rejected is so depressing. Like I don't at all believe Marvel is satisfied with the last 3 runs of BP, or maybe they don't care because they have no competition,

But given the ultimate universe coming up and the previous and current mediocrity that is the BP solo, Marvel should want to make some changes to the franchise to get it back to status quo

Best hope Hickman cooks something good.

[Mantis-Ray]

I read the issue. One thing not being talked about is Wakanda being okay with caste-discrimination. While T'Challa got a jab in at the floundering democratic government not doing anything about it, that made me wonder why hadn't he? Right now, Beisa being trans adds nothing to the story, but that said, what exactly is the story? Where is all this going? In the scene where T'Challa and Beisa are jumping across rooftops and he's asking her to let him help her, I realized that T'Challa is incidental to whatever story Ewing is writing. Now, that's better than him being torn down as the worst of the worst, but still, even Ridley's T'Challa wound up also being incidental to his story.

T'Challa in the Coates Era (which I still consider him in under Ewing) serves as proxy, as THE problem (most noxiously under Ridley), but it's rare that he's actually needed (to be fair I only read a smidgen of Coates's run so maybe we get that in his Intergalactic Empire arc). In the Coates Era, we get a lot of why he's not needed, or how he's messed everything up, or how many shortcomings he has, but nothing much about why he's needed, why must it be him that saves the day in a book with his own name. Instead, we get the argument that "Black Panther" isn't about him, that that's just a mantle. That said, they haven't been able to excise T'Challa from his book because all the non-T'Challa Wakanda-focused comics projects have failed or were short-lived. Even the ones that had him in there but weren't about him (like Coates's The Crew or Agents of Wakanda) didn't last.

With Ewing, we learn that T'Challa knows nothing about the rampant crime and powerful crime families in a city named after his father. And we've seen that what goes on there seemingly involves Beisa a lot more than him, so this is Beisa's story. And we get T'Challa hard up to hang out with Changamire's son or tag along with Beisa in stopping the crime families, but what does any of this do for T'Challa as a character? I hated the premise of the Liss run, however, Liss used that premise to have T'Challa challenge and prove himself to himself.

I thought the issue flowed well enough, though not much happened to push the story forward. I'm still liking the artwork. I feel the new BP design is too busy, but it looks nice. I really liked the redesign for Deathlok. Ewing is good with world building, but she might be forgetting that most people don't stick around for pretty worlds, they want to care about the characters in those worlds.

Yeah the problem is nothing's really happening.

If we spent issues on say T'Challa saving people from human traffickers or stopping a bunch of super burglars who are committing a thieving no one can figure out, it would feel like stuff is happening. Plus it would be a good way of melding world-building as T'Challa can get to know the victims and befriend them, also setting up his own information network.

But instead we're in this really glacial build-up to a gang war where it feels like nothing is happening. Despite a wedding being the centerpiece of Deathlok's attack, we do not meet who's getting married or any big names attending the wedding. And when Deathlok is stopped, we don't see the reactions of the people who sent him who could either be mad he got stopped or satisfied that he caused enough damage.

Again its just a lot of nothing is really happening as a result of the excessively glacial pacing.

[Anthony Shaw]

I could believe in all the corruption of Wakanda in recent runs if Mephisto was behind it.

If he could not taint the royal bloodline, then he would corrupt the people.

[Agent Z]

we are literally introduced to T'Challa having learned everything about the FF to he can systemically beat each member. He joined the Avengers to spy on them, he learns everything he can about his opponents. This isn't a Batman trait. T'Challa is paranoid because of his father's death.

I would much rather have the pragmatic, trust but verify T'Challa that he had always been. Using last tub as an example doesn't really work because all logic was missing from that run

Really? You don't see how fighting other superheroes (especially ones dressed in blue) and defeating your opponents by studying their weaknesses is a Batman trait?

He already knows all he needs to know about her already.

This is all just nitpicking over the fact T'Challa didn't know she was transgender before she told him.