T'Challa: The Black Panther Appreciation 2023

[Mantis-Ray]

Should note that even CBR made an article over the fan response to this issue.

This whole thing has been going too far that they can't ignore it, especially now that Cap is involved, their most famous white guy brutally beating the **** out of a black man not even defending himself.

The fact Marvel thought this was acceptable is ridiculous.

[Username taken]

Should note that even CBR made an article over the fan response to this issue.

This whole thing has been going too far that they can't ignore it, especially now that Cap is involved, their most famous white guy brutally beating the **** out of a black man not even defending himself.

The fact Marvel thought this was acceptable is ridiculous.

It’s unfortunate it got to this point honestly but it does raise certain other issues though.

I’ve noticed that Marvel has been leaning hard into the literary types for their black and minority led titles. Now, I’m not saying this is a bad thing at all however it flows into some uncomfortable questions.

Broadly speaking, it seems that it’s still hard to get into entertainment and even harder to get into Marvel if you’re a traditional black comic creator. Does it mean that Marvel is comfortable with a certain kind of “black voice”? I say this because of Marvel’s unusual hesitance to work with black comic creators that have been doing good stuff at Image and other independents. This simply isn’t the case with white creators like Donny Cates or Jason Aaron or Chip Zdarksy that made their names within the industry. To be clear, there are other white creators that made their name outside the industry like Jed McKay or Gerry Duggan that get high-profile gigs the but pool seems to be more restrictive with regards to black creators.

I could be completely wrong and maybe it’s something Redjack can speak to this because it does seem Marvel is overlooking certain minority talent within the industry.

[skyvolt2000]

It’s unfortunate it got to this point honestly but it does raise certain other issues though.

Broadly speaking, it seems that it’s still hard to get into entertainment and even harder to get into Marvel if you’re a traditional black comic creator. Does it mean that Marvel is comfortable with a certain kind of “black voice”? I say this because of Marvel’s unusual hesitance to work with black comic creators that have been doing good stuff at Image and other independents. This simply isn’t the case with white creators like Donny Cates or Jason Aaron or Chip Zdarksy that made their names within the industry. To be clear, there are other white creators that made their name outside the industry like Jed McKay or Gerry Duggan that get high-profile gigs the but pool seems to be more restrictive with regards to black creators.

I could be completely wrong and maybe it’s something Redjack can speak to this because it does seem Marvel is overlooking certain minority talent within the industry.

They have gone after those writers at Image and other places.

Rodney Barnes did Falcon and Donald Glover Lando book. Folks acted like hiring him was a mistake. Yet over at Image he's getting ready for his 3rd series-Monarch about a black boy during an alien invasion.
Khary Randolph can't seem to get work INSIDE a comic at DC or Marvel aside from Mosaic.
David Walker got push back to his Powerman & Ironfist, Luke Cage, US Avengers and Nighthawk books. Ran out of DC by Harvey Richards.
Brandon Thomas and Brandon Eaton-the later WORKS for Marvel on the tv side.

I think the bigger issue is what projects are you offering black ones versus white ones.
Al Ewing's first work was Avengers Assemble that lead to Mighty Avengers.

Along with EDITORS-
A writer told the story of being offered what would become the Iron Patriot mini series with Rhodey (I think it's this one). He told the editor maybe a black writer could do this better than him. The editor told him "there are no black writers in comics." Mind you all Hudlin and McDuffie and Kevin Grevioux were ALL working at Marvel at that time.

And at one point assistant editors were being asked to do books. One of the job opening included that on the duties. As far as I know the only book that had an editor write it was the last Nova series.

I’ve noticed that Marvel has been leaning hard into the literary types for their black and minority led titles. Now, I’m not saying this is a bad thing at all however it flows into some uncomfortable questions.

That is being done because those folks get the trades on the shelves in stores. Along with some getting automatic spots on school shelves.

Gene Luen Yang or Kami Garcia or Jason Reynolds or Nic Stone-there are ZERO discussions with them. Schools will order their books. Because those teachers and librarians KNOW who they are and will READ those books. The Shuri novels-ENDORSED by teacher associations.

The most read Black Panther book in my entire school district is by Ronald Smith. LEAST read-Coates-to the tune of ZERO reads or checkouts. His entire RUN.

[Mantis-Ray]

They have gone after those writers at Image and other places.

Rodney Barnes did Falcon and Donald Glover Lando book. Folks acted like hiring him was a mistake. Yet over at Image he's getting ready for his 3rd series-Monarch about a black boy during an alien invasion.
Khary Randolph can't seem to get work INSIDE a comic at DC or Marvel aside from Mosaic.
David Walker got push back to his Powerman & Ironfist, Luke Cage, US Avengers and Nighthawk books. Ran out of DC by Harvey Richards.
Brandon Thomas and Brandon Eaton-the later WORKS for Marvel on the tv side.

I think the bigger issue is what projects are you offering black ones versus white ones.
Al Ewing's first work was Avengers Assemble that lead to Mighty Avengers.

Along with EDITORS-
A writer told the story of being offered what would become the Iron Patriot mini series with Rhodey (I think it's this one). He told the editor maybe a black writer could do this better than him. The editor told him "there are no black writers in comics." Mind you all Hudlin and McDuffie and Kevin Grevioux were ALL working at Marvel at that time.

And at one point assistant editors were being asked to do books. One of the job opening included that on the duties. As far as I know the only book that had an editor write it was the last Nova series.



That is being done because those folks get the trades on the shelves in stores. Along with some getting automatic spots on school shelves.

Gene Luen Yang or Kami Garcia or Jason Reynolds or Nic Stone-there are ZERO discussions with them. Schools will order their books. Because those teachers and librarians KNOW who they are and will READ those books. The Shuri novels-ENDORSED by teacher associations.

The most read Black Panther book in my entire school district is by Ronald Smith. LEAST read-Coates-to the tune of ZERO reads or checkouts. His entire RUN.

Ah institutional racism, fucking shame how that still holds back so many creators

[Hulkout42]

Should note that even CBR made an article over the fan response to this issue.

This whole thing has been going too far that they can't ignore it, especially now that Cap is involved, their most famous white guy brutally beating the **** out of a black man not even defending himself.

The fact Marvel thought this was acceptable is ridiculous.

Marvel has many issues, one is hiring people who have no clue what they are doing and two comes to their editors, who are either idiots, too afraid to stand up to the people writing this trash or just flat out are none existent.

I mean it wasn't just Cap, but his felt like the most egregious, but also having Thor and Danvers also come off as oppressors on T'Challa team.

[Redjack]

It’s unfortunate it got to this point honestly but it does raise certain other issues though.

I’ve noticed that Marvel has been leaning hard into the literary types for their black and minority led titles. Now, I’m not saying this is a bad thing at all however it flows into some uncomfortable questions.

Broadly speaking, it seems that it’s still hard to get into entertainment and even harder to get into Marvel if you’re a traditional black comic creator. Does it mean that Marvel is comfortable with a certain kind of “black voice”? I say this because of Marvel’s unusual hesitance to work with black comic creators that have been doing good stuff at Image and other independents. This simply isn’t the case with white creators like Donny Cates or Jason Aaron or Chip Zdarksy that made their names within the industry. To be clear, there are other white creators that made their name outside the industry like Jed McKay or Gerry Duggan that get high-profile gigs the but pool seems to be more restrictive with regards to black creators.

I could be completely wrong and maybe it’s something Redjack can speak to this because it does seem Marvel is overlooking certain minority talent within the industry.

Very simply comics, like all of entertainment but in a much more squozed down way, is a network of cliques overseeing employment.

There need not be sexism or racism at work when croneyism covers all bases.

Gerry Duggan is a friend of mine. We have tracked each other's writing careers and offered help when we could to each other over the years in various venues. there is many a studio and production company exec who got me singing the praises of THE INFINITE HORIZON, one of Gerry's (amazing) indie books.

At some point, right before or during ALL-NEW ALL-DIFFERENT MARVEL, my name came up as possibly taking over the BLACK PANTHER. The reason it came up was Gerry saying in some meeting, "Hey, Geoff's a killer writer, he loves and knows comics. Why have you not already called him?"

So, they called me. We know how that played out but it also allowed me to create MOSAIC


and have some fun with SOLO who now has, among other things, a child with his new ex lover, CATITA who is Afro-latin.



I would never have been called or allowed in the door at Marvel had Gerry, who'd built up cred there working on multiple successful books, put my name in play. Never mind that, at that time, I had multiple indie credits and four-part story in DARK HORSE PRESENTS that I could and did show to multiple editors at conventions.

As with the NFL, the writer is considered to be the team quarterback in comics, i.e. the "brain position." This isn't a slight against the illustrators who, on the whole, make considerably more than the writers and are, also on the whole, the industry rockstars. Just as the unspoken rule in football was, "blacks can't quarterback," or the rule in comedy "women aren't funny" held sway for, well, nearly ever, it's my suspicion (backed up by multiple conversations with writers) the view that "blacks can't write this stuff" was very much a dominant vibe.

Result? DC kept trying to hire my partner, TODD HARRIS, for his ridiculous art skills (something Hollywood pays him so much for neither DC nor Marvel comics can afford him to this day.) But they never bothered to read me. Never.

Know who did? Mike Richardson, founder and, at the time, EiC and publisher of DARK HORSE. I literally ran him down on the convention floor at SDCC, showed him a copy of the indie book Todd and I had made and watched him READ a chunk of it right there.

"You two did this?" he said. "Just you two?"

"Yep."

He offered us BOTH the Dark Horse deal on the spot.

A similar thing happened to put my name in front of Dan Didio.

In both cases, I was vouched for by high-level writers who were already "in the club." And then they checked my resume, and then they requested samples of my published comics. BOTH times. Even though, in one case I had literally run one hit TV show (the equivalent of being both head writer and EiC in comics) and was, at the time, second-in-command on another.

"But can he really write comics?"

Why did it take me so long to get into DC and MARVEL when I was burning up the ladder in a much more brutal profession (TV writing)? Even though croneyism is always at work in both branches of Entertainment, more money is to be made or lost in TV. No one is calling me to work on or promoting me on their show because I'm the black guy or because I'm somebody's pal.

Frankly, there's too much to lose, in TV, if I suck. There's nearly nothing at stake, money-wise, if a comic book fails to make its numbers.

Comics is shifting towards a more industry-proper model in that regard but it's working against nearly a century of racism, sexism, homophobia and, above all that, croneyism to get there.

Don't hold your breath.

The reason croneyism has stuck around this long is because, for the people it serves, it works very well.

We, most of us, just aren't those people.

[Mantis-Ray]

Marvel has many issues, one is hiring people who have no clue what they are doing and two comes to their editors, who are either idiots, too afraid to stand up to the people writing this trash or just flat out are none existent.

I mean it wasn't just Cap, but his felt like the most egregious, but also having Thor and Danvers also come off as oppressors on T'Challa team.

Ya know we really should stop using heroes as direct allegories for the Man and the system cause as shown here its really not a good look.

We should really create a reoccurring stable of government aligned superhuman characters that way that if you want T'Challa to have to deal with an oppressor character, just use that guy instead of Cap.

[skyvolt2000]

Marvel has many issues, one is hiring people who have no clue what they are doing and two comes to their editors, who are either idiots, too afraid to stand up to the people writing this trash or just flat out are none existent.

I mean it wasn't just Cap, but his felt like the most egregious, but also having Thor and Danvers also come off as oppressors on T'Challa team.

Based on an old job posting for Marvel editor and assistant editor-knowing comics is NOT a requirement.

Some of the folks you are getting in general (and not just Marvel) are folks who can't tell you a thing about say Solo or Rocket Racer or T'Challa in terms of comics but they know who Static is because of his show.

So to a newbie-they don't see anything wrong with the story despite history of said character says otherwise.

Now I don't need to know the DEEP history of say Cap America. However I know what I saw in this issue is NOT him. No version of Cap America be it comic, cartoon or movie would ever do that.

And remember some of those editors have seen stuff like this done and SALES never went down. How many horrible stories have we seen come out and SALE? Because those editors know who to toss into them.

Why do you think we have not had an event headlined by a black person? Killmonger coming from space to take over the world SHOULD have been a Marvel event as it affected everyone.

[Hulkout42]

Ya know we really should stop using heroes as direct allegories for the Man and the system cause as shown here its really not a good look.

We should really create a reoccurring stable of government aligned superhuman characters that way that if you want T'Challa to have to deal with an oppressor character, just use that guy instead of Cap.

Wasn't that the angle of the Squadron Supreme? I mean them i could see as oppressors and lapdogs, but seeing the Avengers act that way just hurt to watch, for me at least.

[Mantis-Ray]

Wasn't that the angle of the Squadron Supreme? I mean them i could see as oppressors and lapdogs, but seeing the Avengers act that way just hurt to watch, for me at least.

They could have been but they were barely used especially once the Heroes Reborn event took them off the table.

Its such a shame when interesting bits like that aren't used and instead left to languish. So much interesting potential there.

Hell hilariously a lot of people are already saying Steve here felt more like John Walker or God forbid Ultimate Cap who was basically lapdog supreme for the government.

[Hulkout42]

They could have been but they were barely used especially once the Heroes Reborn event took them off the table.

Its such a shame when interesting bits like that aren't used and instead left to languish. So much interesting potential there.

Hell hilariously a lot of people are already saying Steve here felt more like John Walker or God forbid Ultimate Cap who was basically lapdog supreme for the government.

Hmm, i won't deny, he came close to that in this than Walker who i feel is just an ******* in general.

[Mantis-Ray]

Hmm, i won't deny, he came close to that in this than Walker who i feel is just an ******* in general.

Its something I noticed with Ultimate Cap, he's generally defined by his unquestioning loyalty to the government to the point he lacks any sort of skeptical-ness until the end of Ultimates 2.

Prolly the most telling moment is when the Ultimates went to confront Thor after being manipulated by Loki, Cap just did his job and fought his friend with little question over whether its right or not.

[Daoud]

Very simply comics, like all of entertainment but in a much more squeezed down way, is a network of cliques overseeing employment.

There need not be sexism or racism at work when cronyism covers all bases.

Gerry Duggan is a friend of mine. We have tracked each other's writing careers and offered help when we could to each other over the years in various venues. there is many a studio and production company exec who got me singing the praises of THE INFINITE HORIZON, one of Gerry's (amazing) indie books.

At some point, right before or during ALL-NEW ALL-DIFFERENT MARVEL, my name came up as possibly taking over the BLACK PANTHER. The reason it came up was Gerry saying in some meeting, "Hey, Geoff's a killer writer, he loves and knows comics. Why have you not already called him?"

So, they called me. We know how that played out but it also allowed me to create MOSAIC


and have some fun with SOLO who now has, among other things, a child with his new ex lover, CATITA who is Afro-latin.



I would never have been called or allowed in the door at Marvel had Gerry, who'd built up cred there working on multiple successful books, put my name in play. Never mind that, at that time, I had multiple indie credits and four-part story in DARK HORSE PRESENTS that I could and did show to multiple editors at conventions.

As with the NFL, the writer is considered to be the team quarterback in comics, i.e. the "brain position." This isn't a slight against the illustrators who, on the whole, make considerably more than the writers and are, also on the whole, the industry rockstars. Just as the unspoken rule in football was, "blacks can't quarterback," or the rule in comedy "women aren't funny" held sway for, well, nearly ever, it's my suspicion (backed up by multiple conversations with writers) the view that "blacks can't write this stuff" was very much a dominant vibe.

Result? DC kept trying to hire my partner, TODD HARRIS, for his ridiculous art skills (something Hollywood pays him so much for neither DC nor Marvel comics can afford him to this day.) But they never bothered to read me. Never.

Know who did? Mike Richardson, founder and, at the time, EiC and publisher of DARK HORSE. I literally ran him down on the convention floor at SDCC, showed him a copy of the indie book Todd and I had made and watched him READ a chunk of it right there.

"You two did this?" he said. "Just you two?"

"Yep."

He offered us BOTH the Dark Horse deal on the spot.

A similar thing happened to put my name in front of Dan Didio.

In both cases, I was vouched for by high-level writers who were already "in the club." And then they checked my resume, and then they requested samples of my published comics. BOTH times. Even though, in one case I had literally run one hit TV show (the equivalent of being both head writer and EiC in comics) and was, at the time, second-in-command on another.

"But can he really write comics?"

Why did it take me so long to get into DC and MARVEL when I was burning up the ladder in a much more brutal profession (TV writing)? Even though croneyism is always at work in both branches of Entertainment, more money is to be made or lost in TV. No one is calling me to work on or promoting me on their show because I'm the black guy or because I'm somebody's pal.

Frankly, there's too much to lose, in TV, if I suck. There's nearly nothing at stake, money-wise, if a comic book fails to make its numbers.

Comics is shifting towards a more industry-proper model in that regard but it's working against nearly a century of racism, sexism, homophobia and, above all that, croneyism to get there.

Don't hold your breath.

The reason croneyism has stuck around this long is because, for the people it serves, it works very well.

We, most of us, just aren't those people.

Thank you for this great post Redjack!

It seems to me, the crony system at Marvel is hiring black writers to **** on T'Challa because the money lost by denigrating the title character is not as important as their vision of how the character should be assassinated.

SMH. Sounds about white.

Excelsior!

Daoud

[BlackClaw]

B3508A9F-6B63-490E-9A8D-82E031C40600.jpg

Can anyone see Caleb McLaughlin as an aged up version of Junior?

[king of hybrids]

So how exactly is mr ‘magic is bad, and so is science’ going to beat Thor again?

Because he is, and I don’t have faith that it won’t be stupid as hell