T'Challa: The Black Panther Appreciation 2023

[Toonstrack]

The hate for Tobin is unfounded and based entirely on some arbitrary competition with TChalla people think he's in. As a character he's got a cool power ability and I like his design. He doesn't have to become black panther but black panther could use some more relevant make supporting cast imo.

I like him and I hope he gets use. We could also use another perspective of a young black male character that isnt Miles because right now he's the only one. No ones using Patriot

[Toonstrack]

Also don't get why people are still trying to say BPWF did bad. It didn't.

When BP 1 came out we had :

No pandemic
Chadwick alive as a bankable lead
No Dplus
An Avengers movie around the corner
China BO

The pandemic, no China, and the massively increased focus on Dplus viewership has effectively changed Disney's entire release model.

They were paying close attention in 2021 and we watched them experiment with release models. What they ultimately settled on is shorter release in theaters with massive D plus promotion. Now Dplus subscribers can effectively watch this movie for free if they are willing to wait 3 months. Thats a huge difference and a lot will take advantage of that.

With all of those things it still best Thor and most other movies this year that weren't Avatar and Top Gun. Only DS2 beat it and that had less real competition. Therrs no doubt in my mind they are very happy with the numbers with all of these considered. Billion dollar movies are going to go back to pre 2018 status for marvel save for avengers films. And Disney is ok with that. They can make money from folks in theaters and have year round income from Disney plus subscribers, because once these folks watch the movies they'll probably go ahead and watch one of the shows too. And that money is all there. Ant man 3 and Marvel's ain't making a billion either. We won't see a bil til the next avengers film from Disney.

[Nate Grey]

Belated New Year, fellow T'Challa fans!

[milesvspeter]

Reading over some of you all's thoughts on Tosin. The way I see it is that Marvel Comics went all in on the idea of the mantle and that Wakanda is more important than T'Challa. It wasn't enough to just introduce a new male character, one that had powers and potentially could be a breakout, but they also had to put him in opposition, loud opposition, to T'Challa. I think it was a bad move to bring Tosin into the book to crap on T'Challa, just like about every other new character has for years now. However, dumping on (straight) Black males was still very much in vogue in entertainment. Coates largely got away with it, but I think readers' patience is shorter with Ridley, especially when Wakanda Forever was looming, as was the specter that T'Challa would be buried in the movies and comics.

It's presumptuous that Tosin, who has lived in a closed off segment of Wakandan society would call himself "The Wakandan." While preaching inclusion on one hand, he's very exclusionary. It's like he can't see the contradictions, perhaps because Ridley can't. It was like Tosin is the kind of stereotypical idea of a "woke" young activist but is put in the context of Wakanda. The assumption is that these kinds of characters are going to sell, but I haven't really seen that happening at DC and Marvel, and some like the new New Warriors were quashed before they even saw daylight. Ridley didn't do much to make him endearing, outside of a neat look and potential power set. He so far hasn't even spent time developing a romantic relationship between Tosin and Shuri which perhaps could've made him more likable, or likable period.

It sucks that Vibraxas was tossed to the side. I find him more potentially interesting than Tosin or Gentle (still not digging that code name). I would much rather have Vibraxas and Queen Divine Justice as important supporting characters in a BP title or in a spin off title of their own.

I think the disappointing box office for Wakanda Forever will give Marvel Comics some pause on erasing T'Challa. I don't think they will go back on dumping on him completely-it's just too ingrained-but the door is now open for a Brandon Thomas, Bryan Edward Hill, etc. to perhaps give a more nuanced or tempered T'Challa. He will still get checked (largely by Black female characters) and be very reliant on Shuri, but maybe, just maybe, he won't be as hapless, self-loathing, and defeatist.

When I think about how Ridley writes Jace Fox versus T'Challa, it's almost night and day. He does spank Fox some, and he gets checked (often by females of color), but he's nowhere near as defeated as Ridley's T'Challa. No one is telling him he's not needed or that he makes everything worse. None of the Fox sisters are telling another hero that they are the future while their brother is the past, and things along that line.

WF boxoffice was not disappointing. It did more than Thor 4 and The Batman and was dealing with the world cup it's whole run. Context matters

[Emperorjones]

Also don't get why people are still trying to say BPWF did bad. It didn't.

When BP 1 came out we had :

No pandemic
Chadwick alive as a bankable lead
No Dplus
An Avengers movie around the corner
China BO

The pandemic, no China, and the massively increased focus on Dplus viewership has effectively changed Disney's entire release model.

They were paying close attention in 2021 and we watched them experiment with release models. What they ultimately settled on is shorter release in theaters with massive D plus promotion. Now Dplus subscribers can effectively watch this movie for free if they are willing to wait 3 months. Thats a huge difference and a lot will take advantage of that.

With all of those things it still best Thor and most other movies this year that weren't Avatar and Top Gun. Only DS2 beat it and that had less real competition. Therrs no doubt in my mind they are very happy with the numbers with all of these considered. Billion dollar movies are going to go back to pre 2018 status for marvel save for avengers films. And Disney is ok with that. They can make money from folks in theaters and have year round income from Disney plus subscribers, because once these folks watch the movies they'll probably go ahead and watch one of the shows too. And that money is all there. Ant man 3 and Marvel's ain't making a billion either. We won't see a bil til the next avengers film from Disney.

I think some have laid out why they dislike Tosin, and so I feel to call what people say about the character "unfounded" is very dismissive. Ridley set the character up to be in opposition to T'Challa (and this is a T'Challa appreciation page, so yeah, some people are going to take issue with that). If you like him, cool, but do you think your liking him is just as "unfounded" as people disliking him?

As for Wakanda Forever, the movie underperformed at the box office. It's not a failure, it's not a flop, but it did underperform compared to the first film. (And it faced some of the same challenges that Top Gun and Jurassic Park did, though both made a billion, and it also didn't overtake Dr. Strange 2, even though the first Black Panther made gobs more money than the first Dr. Strange, and arguably Wakanda Forever had far less competition and the lucrative Thanksgiving holiday all to itself). If next year, The Marvels also doesn't hit, or exceed, a billion like the first one did, then the same conversation can also be had, though I doubt the Wakanda Forever defenders or deniers will be out in force explaining why a disappointment isn't a disappointment then. Ant-Man 3 is not coming off a billion-dollar Ant-Man 2. If it hits what Wakanda Forever made last year that will be considered a win, and also proof that each successive Ant-Man movie is getting bigger box office, which is now something the Black Panther franchise can't claim. They can turn it around with the third movie-if there is a third movie-but as it stands, Wakanda Forever's box office underperformed.

[Emperorjones]

Context does matter. So are we saying that the World Cup is the excuse now. That everyone was glued to their television sets for every match? No, the film just didn't get the same dollars. What happened after the World Cup was over? It's not like Wakanda Forever still isn't in theaters. Where was the flood of people who, now freed from their television sets, to go to see it? As it stands, Wakanda Forever didn't make the same bank either domestically or internationally.

Doing more than Thor 4 (the fourth film in a franchise) or The Batman (the first film in the umpteenth iteration of Batman, and a film whose box office was curtailed due to a theatrical window) isn't saying much. Notably you left Dr. Strange 2, Top Gun, and Jurassic Park out. You also left Avatar 2 out. It was closing on a billion in like about two weeks of release. The money was there for Wakanda Forever, but the moviegoers weren't in the numbers to make it a massive, runaway success. My personal belief is that a lot of that boiled down to lack of repeat business. That the film wasn't one that many people wanted, or felt a need, to see repeatedly in theaters.

[milesvspeter]

Also don't get why people are still trying to say BPWF did bad. It didn't.

When BP 1 came out we had :

No pandemic
Chadwick alive as a bankable lead
No Dplus
An Avengers movie around the corner
China BO

The pandemic, no China, and the massively increased focus on Dplus viewership has effectively changed Disney's entire release model.

They were paying close attention in 2021 and we watched them experiment with release models. What they ultimately settled on is shorter release in theaters with massive D plus promotion. Now Dplus subscribers can effectively watch this movie for free if they are willing to wait 3 months. Thats a huge difference and a lot will take advantage of that.

With all of those things it still best Thor and most other movies this year that weren't Avatar and Top Gun. Only DS2 beat it and that had less real competition. Therrs no doubt in my mind they are very happy with the numbers with all of these considered. Billion dollar movies are going to go back to pre 2018 status for marvel save for avengers films. And Disney is ok with that. They can make money from folks in theaters and have year round income from Disney plus subscribers, because once these folks watch the movies they'll probably go ahead and watch one of the shows too. And that money is all there. Ant man 3 and Marvel's ain't making a billion either. We won't see a bil til the next avengers film from Disney.

Doctor strange 2 came right after a big team up film. DS2 it's self was marketed as a cameo filled film, WF had non of that. People REJECT the truth if it does not fit their desire.

[milesvspeter]

Context does matter. So are we saying that the World Cup is the excuse now. That everyone was glued to their television sets for every match? No, the film just didn't get the same dollars. What happened after the World Cup was over? It's not like Wakanda Forever still isn't in theaters. Where was the flood of people who, now freed from their television sets, to go to see it? As it stands, Wakanda Forever didn't make the same bank either domestically or internationally.

Doing more than Thor 4 (the fourth film in a franchise) or The Batman (the first film in the umpteenth iteration of Batman, and a film whose box office was curtailed due to a theatrical window) isn't saying much. Notably you left Dr. Strange 2, Top Gun, and Jurassic Park out. You also left Avatar 2 out. It was closing on a billion in like about two weeks of release. The money was there for Wakanda Forever, but the moviegoers weren't in the numbers to make it a massive, runaway success. My personal belief is that a lot of that boiled down to lack of repeat business. That the film wasn't one that many people wanted, or felt a need, to see repeatedly in theaters.

Avatar 2 had a better release date and released in china. Top gun 2 didn't deal with world cup and had more theaters to play the film. Thor is one of the big 3 in the mcu and had big roles for years. The batman is A list, also had a china release date. JW had a china release date. DS2 and NWH were big Team up films. WF had non of this PLUS lost Chadwick and had a new lead. WF boxoffice was good. Disney set the film up to not do as well as it could.

[Ezyo1000]

Good team. I worry about Adam because he's not likely to cross the lines that T'Challa will and that could cause issues between them.

True, but if written correctly it can be an interesting dynamic, like a Batman Superman dynamic

[Ezyo1000]

Zzzz back to the WF talk? What? It didn't perform well, no matter the excuses, it didn't, move on, this is T'Challas thread. Its the new year. Give Zero fraks to the movie and let's appreciate T'Challa in his thread not go back and forth over whether the movie was or wasn't a disappointment.

[Steroid]

Wow we seriously retreading this back and forth about a movie T'Challa wasn't in? None of us are getting royalty checks from it so in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter how it performed. Brothers and sisters let that **** go.

[MindofShadow]

The hate for Tobin is unfounded and based entirely on some arbitrary competition with TChalla people think he's in. As a character he's got a cool power ability and I like his design.

He doesn't add anything to the book so far. He is just another, "T'challa sucks" character. How is that any different from Omo, MA in season 1+, Folisade, and currently Storm?

Cool powers (that weren't properly set up), cool design, fills a possible need in "young black male character"... sure. But all that is surface level stuff. What do you like about actual TOSIN? Nothing... there is nothing to like because there is no character there. Ridley spent no time at all on him so he is just a paper thin hater like the rest.

Plus... Tosin is just shitty, paper thin Vibraxas. But every writer wants OC's so they can possibly get an MCU royalty check in the future.

[Username taken]

Wow we seriously retreading this back and forth about a movie T'Challa wasn't in? None of us are getting royalty checks from it so in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter how it performed. Brothers and sisters let that **** go.

Exactly this.

Whether BP2 performed well or not, the MCU has removed T'Challa.

Its best we move on from that particular discussion.

[BlackClaw]

Seriously regarding the MCU what’s done is done (until something happens with T’Junior). Let’s focus on what other mediums have in store with T’Challa.

[mace11]

Here is some talk about expectations and moving the goalpost talk etc..

Is Wakanda Forever A Flop


Note- the break even point is really closer to 600 million or 600 million.