Ben Reilly: Spider-Man/Scarlet Spider Appreciation 2023

[Sr. Bungle]

But what about Janine? She was banging Spidercide all along? Its the same absurd and ratarded situation as MJ x Paul with Peter being a cuckold.

The best possible way is to say that this Beyond's goo took control over Ben, and he somewhat took control of it later, becoming yet again a sensational Spider-Man (or proper Scarlet Spider).

(But seriously, that "Chasm storyline" is an easy fix and/or retcon and nobody sane would complain about it being changed whether it makes sense or not)

No, I was talking about Spidecide look, he may fuse with the goop or just adopt the look because he thinks is neat

[The Black Death]

What’s your problem with Kaine? I’ve known fans who don’t like him (mostly during the 90s when he was in almost every book), but I’ve never known someone who liked Ben Reilly but hated him. They kind of go together like peanut butter and jelly.

Don't exaggerate either, I don't have a big problem with Kaine. I detest much more other characters that even cause me repudiation, the only thing that Kaine causes me is annoyance, also to clarify things to you, that I like Ben does not mean that obligatorily I have to like Kaine. There are many reasons why I detest Kaine, I will not mention all of them obviously.

For starters I can't have any kind of esteem or sympathy for someone like Kaine who in his early days was a deranged psychopath who the only thing did was **** up Ben's life for absurd reasons, even when Ben was trying to help Kaine despite all the **** Kaine did to, even though Ben was trying to help Kaine in some way, Kaine himself kept fucking up and unfairly blaming Ben for all his misfortunes. It also doesn't help that even though Kaine became "good" never did anything to truly honor Ben, even when Ben and Kaine met again instead of Kaine trying to help Ben or at the very least Kaine apologizing for all the damage he caused Ben in the past, all Kaine did was go after Ben like a lunatic again, fighting Ben and threatening at every turn. I always found it funny that Kaine had that behavior with someone like Ben who in the beginning was just trying to help, but Kaine never did anything against the true Jackal, the one responsible for most of Kaine's misfortunes.

I also don't like the strange obsession people have of putting Ben and Kaine together to behave like "brothers" when Ben and Kaine have never had a normal brotherly relationship, at best Ben and Kaine's supposed brotherly relationship can be considered a toxic brotherly relationship.

Also for people who think that no matter how creative their ideas are to make Ben have his own "Venom" or whatever, don't get hopes up because all those ideas will never happen. More because realistically Marvel will never let Ben stop being Chasm, Marvel never likes to let go of their new toys, so can only settle for at best and hopefully Ben will stop being treated as a villain by Marvel, and that's being very positive.

[Coop]

Yeah I don't think Spidercide/Ben swap works any better then regular Chasm. Which is the problem. As a concept Chasm just isn't good. No one at Marvel has made a case for it with a good story that pushes anyone involved forward.

It's a storytelling dead end. Ben without his Peter memories is just a guy with Spider powers. Ben isn't going to have a relevant story as Chasm because Chasm is just an empty husk with a Ben Reilly face that Janine is too broken to move on from.

[Refrax5]

I was more joking with the last part than saying it seriously, although the idea of Ben killing Kaine is still funny because of how ironic that would be. Anyway, now leaving aside the jokes, I doubt that for now Ben kills Kaine, at least for now, and more in the future who knows, even so we will not pretend that the reunion between Ben and Kaine will be rosy and will end well, because at least someone will end up badly hurt and I bet it will be Kaine.

In fact, everything that happened at the end of the last Scarlet Spider series is still canon, and I just like to think that after all that, off-panel Ben reflected and rethought things better realizing that his soul was going to be corrupted forever was just a deception of Mephisto, that Ben after that recovered some sanity and then all the Spider-Geddon stuff happened, the rest is history. At least that gives more sense to Ben's sudden change than just making the last issues #24 and #25 of that series didn't happen, because if all those things did happen in the end, people who make believe that the events of #24 and #25 didn't happen are just fooling themselves and also to avoid emotional damage that still can't overcome.

It doesn't really make more sense, since Spider-Geddon directly contradicts it and the Peter David series made it clear that Ben's soul was irretrievably evil from coming back to life that 28th time and beyond healing. So it's not really something that gets better by reflecting.

I'm not fooling myself. Marvel very clearly has ignored the events of the last two issues and is pretending they never happened.

As for something Kaine getting hurt badly, I kind of doubt it. It seems like they're setting them up to be co-stars.

[Refrax5]

To be fair, his actions in “Clone Conspiracy” were preeeeeeetty bad. Worse than anything Kaine had done. And Kaine’s redemption did give us one of the best solo runs of the 2010’s with Yost’s ‘Scarlet Spider’ run. NuJackal or Chasm should’ve been revealed to be Spidercide who can shapeshift to appear like Ben as well. That would’ve been the correct way to go all along.

EDIT: Ah, I see Kurolegacy made the same point above. It’s like no one at Marvel even remembered Spidercide existed until JMD used him for last year’s Ben Reilly mini. It’s nice to see him pop up again in ‘Spine Tingling’, but yeah, a definite missed opportunity.

I don't think more convoluted fakeouts and impersonations and doubles are what Ben's story needs. That just makes his continuity even more of a tangled mess.

Both his turns as Jackal and Chasm are pretty easily explained away in the comics. As Jackal, his soul was corrupted from the resurrection process (which was since healed in Spider-Geddon) and with Chasm, he's literally brain-damaged. They said clones' memory implants don't work like normal memories and messing with them can cause terrible damage. It's not just amnesia with Ben, hence why he was hallucinating and becoming unstable when his memories were tampered with.

Ben's pretty much been a victim in all of this and his bouts of insanity haven't really been his fault. All that really needs to be done to fix him is to have his mind fixed and move on. He's almost like a Winter Soldier figure where he's done some terrible things, but it wasn't really his fault. Him coming back from that trauma and trying to deal with it as a hero is a pretty easy hook.

[Sr. Bungle]

I don't think more convoluted fakeouts and impersonations and doubles are what Ben's story needs. That just makes his continuity even more of a tangled mess.

Both his turns as Jackal and Chasm are pretty easily explained away in the comics. As Jackal, his soul was corrupted from the resurrection process (which was since healed in Spider-Geddon) and with Chasm, he's literally brain-damaged. They said clones' memory implants don't work like normal memories and messing with them can cause terrible damage. It's not just amnesia with Ben, hence why he was hallucinating and becoming unstable when his memories were tampered with.

Ben's pretty much been a victim in all of this and his bouts of insanity haven't really been his fault. All that really needs to be done to fix him is to have his mind fixed and move on. He's almost like a Winter Soldier figure where he's done some terrible things, but it wasn't really his fault. Him coming back from that trauma and trying to deal with it as a hero is a pretty easy hook.

If the X-Office can handwave the multiple genocides of Bishop, fixing Ben should be a breeze. Question is: Do they want to?

[Huntsman Spider]

I’m all for it. There is a lot they can do to right the ship now, with a lil more creativity and someone who cares enough to write the character and dig back far enough into the marvel files to pull out some old characters to make them relevant again.

It can work.

Thanks.

If the X-Office can handwave the multiple genocides of Bishop, fixing Ben should be a breeze. Question is: Do they want to?

A sadly very valid question.

[Garlador]

Re-reading the Christmas story of Ben saving a woman from suicide on Christmas Day. I miss this guy, and I look forward to the day we get him back.

[The Black Death]

Yeah I don't think Spidercide/Ben swap works any better then regular Chasm. Which is the problem. As a concept Chasm just isn't good. No one at Marvel has made a case for it with a good story that pushes anyone involved forward.

It's a storytelling dead end. Ben without his Peter memories is just a guy with Spider powers. Ben isn't going to have a relevant story as Chasm because Chasm is just an empty husk with a Ben Reilly face that Janine is too broken to move on from.

You and your traumas with Chasm, at this point, you're just repeating the same old thing. The concept of Chasm with Ben had potential; the problem was the poor execution and it was wasted due to the inconsistent writing of Wells. But even if tell you this more than a hundred times, you'll still fail to understand the real problem.

With a good writer, nothing is impossible to fix, but if you continue to believe that no writer can fix Ben's character, that's already your problem. God, then say that I'm the one who is constantly negative.

It doesn't really make more sense, since Spider-Geddon directly contradicts it and the Peter David series made it clear that Ben's soul was irretrievably evil from coming back to life that 28th time and beyond healing. So it's not really something that gets better by reflecting.

I'm not fooling myself. Marvel very clearly has ignored the events of the last two issues and is pretending they never happened.

As for something Kaine getting hurt badly, I kind of doubt it. It seems like they're setting them up to be co-stars.

The comics constantly contradict each other; it's somewhat like some writers trying to make it seem as if Peter and MJ's marriage never happened, that Mayday's existence never occurred. Nevertheless, several Spider-Man fans still believe that Peter and MJ's marriage, as well as the existence of Mayday, remain part of the canon. It's almost similar to the final issues of the Scarlet Spider: Ben Reilly is still considered canon, despite Spider-Geddon contradicting all of that. Similarly, another comic could come along and contradict everything seen in Spider-Geddon regarding Ben.

I apologize for not being more specific. When I referred to people deceiving themselves, I wasn't talking about you; I was referring to a different kind of people.

I also doubt that Kaine will co-star with Ben in something. At most, Ben and Kaine will finally end on good terms, although I highly doubt even that will happen. I find it more likely that Janine will be the co-star with Ben in some future comic than Kaine returning to co-star in another story with Ben.

[Huntsman Spider]

Re-reading the Christmas story of Ben saving a woman from suicide on Christmas Day. I miss this guy, and I look forward to the day we get him back.

Right there with you.

You and your traumas with Chasm, at this point, you're just repeating the same old thing. The concept of Chasm with Ben had potential; the problem was the poor execution and it was wasted due to the inconsistent writing of Wells. But even if tell you this more than a hundred times, you'll still fail to understand the real problem.

With a good writer, nothing is impossible to fix, but if you continue to believe that no writer can fix Ben's character, that's already your problem. God, then say that I'm the one who is constantly negative.



The comics constantly contradict each other; it's somewhat like some writers trying to make it seem as if Peter and MJ's marriage never happened, that Mayday's existence never occurred. Nevertheless, several Spider-Man fans still believe that Peter and MJ's marriage, as well as the existence of Mayday, remain part of the canon. It's almost similar to the final issues of the Scarlet Spider: Ben Reilly is still considered canon, despite Spider-Geddon contradicting all of that. Similarly, another comic could come along and contradict everything seen in Spider-Geddon regarding Ben.

I apologize for not being more specific. When I referred to people deceiving themselves, I wasn't talking about you; I was referring to a different kind of people.

I also doubt that Kaine will co-star with Ben in something. At most, Ben and Kaine will finally end on good terms, although I highly doubt even that will happen. I find it more likely that Janine will be the co-star with Ben in some future comic than Kaine returning to co-star in another story with Ben.

A story with Janine (whether still as Hallows' Eve or not) and Ben could be fun. It would also be a great follow-up to The Lost Years and Redemption.

[Pav]

while I did love his redemption arch, I still kinda personally prefer him to be a villain; the bane to Ben, as he originally was created. If he had remained as such, then perhaps HE could have filled the role that Ben-Jackal or even Ben-Chasm attempted to fill as the “evil-Peter” instead of them trying to drag Ben through the mud. That was Kaine’s whole original purpose anyways, when they decided to reveal him as the original clone. To be the “reverse” Peter, in a sense.

Gotta agree. Thanks to Yost, Kaine had an awesome redemption arc -- but I still prefer him in the role of Franken-Spider. His character was made for tragedy, just as Ben became a symbol of hope.

I have a really big problem about Kaine's redemption too, everybody was eager to forgive him and throw Ben under the bus, even Kaine in Clone Conspiracy was all judgemental like he had a high ground to stand on

To be fair, his actions in “Clone Conspiracy” were preeeeeeetty bad. Worse than anything Kaine had done.

There's still so much of Kaine's past we haven't seen -- and wasn't he introduced as a world-class assassin in his debut stories? Nevertheless, because of what we DO know from Lost Years and Spider-Man: Redemption, it seems to me that Kaine of all people should've been able to sympathize with Ben-becoming-villain due to mental breakdown.

And truth to be told I find his original costume a lot better than his Scarlet Spider one.

Hell yes! The eyeless mask and the webbing all over was so cool.

Frankly, all Ben and Kaine need is a good, solid miniseries, preferably by J.M. DeMatteis or Chris Yost, though I will also take Steve Foxe or Christopher Cantwell, to conclude the saga that began in Spider-Man: The Lost Years and then picked up in Spider-Man: Redemption

I think Ben / Kaine fans generally know what kind of stories they'd like to read; it just depends on whether any given writer agrees.

(But seriously, that "Chasm storyline" is an easy fix and/or retcon and nobody sane would complain about it being changed whether it makes sense or not)

The easiest thing to do would be to have Ben and Chasm be purged apart from each other. Let Chasm become to Ben what they wanted Ben to be for Peter. Let Chasm become this symbiotic creature with only the faintest recollection of Ben’s personality and memories and hates Ben for it. None of the genetic template; just the beyond Goo separated from Ben with some semblance of a mental stamp, and he hates Ben for leaving that stamp left in it... After Ben gets his memories back.

Ben, like Miles, needs his own rouges outside of the normal Peter villains. Chasm can become Ben’s Goblin.

Honestly, I thought the creative teams at the time were doing a good job of establishing a new rogues gallery for Ben.

The Jackal is Ben's Green Goblin.
Kaine was Ben's Venom.
Spidercide could've easily become Ben's Carnage.
Lady Ock is obvious.
Joystick could've been Ben's Black Cat.

As for the Chasm identity, my gut says Ben either uses both the look and the name or at least the look for the indefinite future -- maybe with a change in color scheme at most -- despite HOPEFULLY getting the turn back to heroics that he deserves.

Joystick, ARAMADA, Carolyn Trainer, Maxine Danger and all kind of Beyond Monsters, even Phil Urich

AND PHIL DESERVES HIS OWN REDEMPTION.

Oh, Armada would be a great one to see back. I'd also love to see Carolyn Trainer as a teched-out crime boss again, especially given the recent attempts at mainstreaming virtual reality and then artificial intelligence in real life. Phil Urich as the Goblin King with his Goblin gang taking on Ben Reilly as Spider-Man could be great as well, given how they both started out as heroes in the 90s, only to then fall from grace when they were brought back in the 2010s ASM comics (even if Phil already broke bad in The Loners), so the parallels and contrasts could be very compelling. And yeah, Maxine Danger using Beyond Corporation to create and/or employ monsters and villains to be fielded against Ben might be a great way to parallel certain adaptations of Spider-Man that make Oscorp the chief source of villains for Spider-Man to fight.

Armada and Carolyn Trainer both have shticks that seem more relevant and interesting than ever, considering their relationships to robots and virtual reality, respectively.

BUT MY POOR PHIL.

Okay, sure, I got why Slott used him as a foil to Peter in Big Time, but I have not enjoyed the spiral into worse villainy. I miss Phil just being a slacker, and I wish that would've remained even if Phil decided to quit with the hero biz and look out solely for #1. I just don't think the Phil I knew would care about being a crime boss. Any villainy Phil would get into would be petty and for the lols, just like his attempt at heroics mostly was.

The concept of Chasm with Ben had potential; the problem was the poor execution and it was wasted due to the inconsistent writing of Wells.
I also doubt that Kaine will co-star with Ben in something. At most, Ben and Kaine will finally end on good terms, although I highly doubt even that will happen. I find it more likely that Janine will be the co-star with Ben in some future comic than Kaine returning to co-star in another story with Ben.

Chasm was a hugely blown opportunity, but it was also built upon the collapsing of his mind due to Beyond, arguably a bad turn for the character. For every cool thing that Chasm is/coud've been -- offensive Spider-Sense?! maybe some cool webbing effects...? -- we mostly got half-baked ideas and a powerset that was barely explained OR explored.

That they didn't name him "Recluse" also boggles the mind.

Oh, and hey! Maybe Janine will serve as Ben's Hobgoblin.

I miss Aura and Override.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, EVERYONE!!!

-Pav, who got some sweet Scarlet Spider swag as gifts...

[HypnoHustler]

Re-reading the Christmas story of Ben saving a woman from suicide on Christmas Day. I miss this guy, and I look forward to the day we get him back.

According to ‘Life of Reilly’, Jenny was originally written as HIV+, but editorial chickened out and made it so she just had problems with the rent or her job or something.

[Blanks]

Gotta agree. Thanks to Yost, Kaine had an awesome redemption arc -- but I still prefer him in the role of Franken-Spider. His character was made for tragedy, just as Ben became a symbol of hope.

The Jackal is Ben's Green Goblin.
…
…

True about the Jackal. At this point I wouldn’t put it past them to somehow tie the Jackal into the Beyond Corp somehow and that he played a part in twisting Ben’s mind as a revenge ploy for Ben’s role in the Clone Conspiracy against him, with the 5 other Jackal clones. That would be a very “Norman to Peter” thing that Warren could do to Ben.

[Sr. Bungle]

True about the Jackal. At this point I wouldn’t put it past them to somehow tie the Jackal into Bryond somehow and that he played a part in twisting Ben’s mind as a revenge ploy for Ben’s role in the Clone Conspiracy against him, with the 5 other Jackal clones. That would be a very “Norman to Peter” thing that Warren could do to Ben.

Jackal was created to be a GG replacement iirc

[Coop]

I don't really like the idea of Jackal being Ben's nemesis. I think that character has looooong overstayed his welcome and I would be relieved to not see anymore of them. Though I am sure we will.

I am down with a redeemed Kaine. At least he's still ostensibly the same character, just with growth.

I think the only way forward for Ben is to restore his memories. He's simply a different character, and under Lowe basically a joke character, without them. It's really funny when Lowe uses "we can't just have two characters who are exactly the same" as the defense for what they did to Ben, which has turned him into basically a nothing character.

Chasm didn't push the character forward. Before Beyond he was just hanging around Vegas waiting for someone to use him. Now he's just hanging around Limbo, except he's a farce character that doesn't resemble the Ben I knew at all. That Ben wasn't a resentful jealous madman trying to steal someone else's life. He was a guy who drew an extremely bad hand in life and refused to give up his individuality and who fought to find the will to live, but then create a life worth living for himself.

This guy we have now just ain't that. The concept has no potential. And that's proven out by Marvel's inability to do anything with it.