Wonder Woman Rogues Gallery Appreciation 2023

[Mel Dyer]

I insist that a writer bringing those WW villains back only to have all of them being unceremoniously defeated in a single page is really not doing them any favors. What Wonder Woman's villains need is for a writer to do a Geoff John's Flash: Rogues on them. Remember how Johns took a bunch of D-list Flash villains and enriched their characterization, fine-tuned their motives, and made them absolutely terrifying. I can definitely see "lame" characters like Angle Man, Osira, Gundra and Kung become utterly deadly if a good writer wanted them to be. That's what I want more than anything: for Wonder Woman villains of yore to be revamped in powerful, scary ways.

What HH just said just sums up where so many of us find ourselves, every time the WW comic gets a new writer/creative team, ..and I agree.

I think we just want to see some writer make an effort to use some essential aspect of WW's supporting characters and rogues gallery in a great, new story and make it all work. We shouldn't have to choose between moving forward in a bold, new direction with a new Wonderverse...new EVERY-thing ..or limping along with Ken doll Steve and some Nora Desmond knockoff with superpowers, ..and I think that's the choice we're always saddled with.

Some of us are just tired of waiting for the big fix on the old machine. If a Tom King wants to reorder the Wonderverse and bring in an archenemy, around which a brilliant, new on-going story can be started, ..I think some of us are willing to part with the old stuff.

We're tired of being justifiably embarrassed by our favorite comic, are tired of imagining how great it could - never seeing it realized in the comic - and not being able to recommend it to other comic fans.

We want a WW comic we can love and be proud of.

[WonderScott]

I insist that a writer bringing those WW villains back only to have all of them being unceremoniously defeated in a single page is really not doing them any favors. What Wonder Woman's villains need is for a writer to do a Geoff John's Flash: Rogues on them. Remember how Johns took a bunch of D-list Flash villains and enriched their characterization, fine-tuned their motives, and made them absolutely terrifying. I can definitely see "lame" characters like Angle Man, Osira, Gundra and Kung become utterly deadly if a good writer wanted them to be. That's what I want more than anything: for Wonder Woman villains of yore to be revamped in powerful, scary ways.

Same here!

That scenario would be amazing for Villainy Inc, but I think there are other ways to accomplish it too with a broad array of Wonder villains. DC just needs to think a little differently from how they do things now. (Call me DC!)

When I think of character, I also don’t think of a villain falling into just one theme. I like to think more fully about their lives, their connections to other characters that currently exist or may exist in the future, what they care about and what’s going on in their lives, and where they came from and where they’re going and how that might change over time and adventures. That kinda stuff and more stuff like that.

It’s not just about powers and their origins for me, as neat and tidy as that can be sometimes. Wonder foes can be very messy when you think about who they are, how they got there, who they’re dragging along with them, what they want now, how what they want might change, etc. and all that messiness is great for drama and the epic-ness to the quiet moments Diana deserves in her storytelling.

She’s the myth-i-est of modern myths and her stories need to tell us about our contemporary lives just like all the world mythologies did in the past.

[Mel Dyer]

Same here!

That scenario would be amazing for Villainy Inc, but I think there are other ways to accomplish it too with a broad array of Wonder villains. DC just needs to think a little differently from how they do things now. (Call me DC!)

When I think of character, I also don’t think of a villain falling into just one theme. I like to think more fully about their lives, their connections to other characters that currently exist or may exist in the future, what they care about and what’s going on in their lives, and where they came from and where they’re going and how that might change over time and adventures. That kinda stuff and more stuff like that.

It’s not just about powers and their origins for me, as neat and tidy as that can be sometimes. Wonder foes can be very messy when you think about who they are, how they got there, who they’re dragging along with them, what they want now, how what they want might change, etc. and all that messiness is great for drama and the epic-ness to the quiet moments Diana deserves in her storytelling.

She’s the myth-i-est of modern myths and her stories need to tell us about our contemporary lives just like all the world mythologies did in the past.

It sounds like you're imagining a community of Wonder-villains. That's different, ..and it sounds like a fresh and clever take on Villainy, Inc. Is this town of badguys in Gateway?

[Agent Z]

I think Angle Man might be the only one who is kind of a generic supervillain that doesn't have much thematic relevance to Wonder Woman, we're just used to him showing up a lot.

The other ones from the Golden Age are either already tied to myth or still have some relevant themes. The other bronze age ones can be made to fit too (the Swans obviously, Rucka's Dr. Cyber is now effectively a goddess of cyberspace and has two gods involved in her origin, Osira has the Egyptian stuff and I think Kung's Japanese-American family being in the US camps during WWII could actually make him a relevant character for the current run).

Kung's backstory could work for this current run but I think it's pretty limited outside of that in regards to Wonder Woman. Blue Snowman is also another villain that makes more sense for another hero.

Giganta, Zara, Minister Blizzard and Osira could be reimagined to fit more into the fantasy/mythology genre (Giganta being a Greek giant, Zara being an Ifrit, Minister Blizzard being Jack Frost and Osira being a sorceress).

[WonderScott]

It sounds like you're imagining a community of Wonder-villains. That's different, ..and it sounds like a fresh and clever take on Villainy, Inc. Is this town of badguys in Gateway?

I definitely like some interconnectedness between some of a hero’s foes. And mixing them up in some novel ways to see what happens. The enemy of your enemy is your friend… and potentially another enemy and all that. I kind of think of it as one big tapestry with some threads woven together to create the whole picture. There’s a richness in that to me and at least one way my creativity fires off. E.G. What happens when I put this character together and that character together? And then hope for some happy accidents.

All due respect to Gateway, but I have another city in mind for some Wonder adventure and action. Quite a few of Diana’s foes are on a grander scale, similar to Superman, so I see Diana having a place as a home, but also as a global, intergalactic, inter-dimensional, etc. adventurer.

[SiegePerilous02]

Kung's backstory could work for this current run but I think it's pretty limited outside of that in regards to Wonder Woman. Blue Snowman is also another villain that makes more sense for another hero.

Giganta, Zara, Minister Blizzard and Osira could be reimagined to fit more into the fantasy/mythology genre (Giganta being a Greek giant, Zara being an Ifrit, Minister Blizzard being Jack Frost and Osira being a sorceress).

While applying things to the fantasy/mythology genre can work if it's applicable, I don't think it's strictly required. Wonder Woman was not designed to be a character who only sticks to the myth based stuff. Blue Snowman fits into the mythos because they represent cold apathy and greed, profiting off of screwing over other people, which is something Diana would oppose because that's not a system that has any place on Themyscira.

Giganta gaining her size shifting powers from the Greek giants would be cool (she doesn't have a consistent source for that power set), but I'd rather the gorilla origin still be used. She represents barbarism and wanting to devolve humanity back to their basic animal instincts, while Diana wants to lead humanity away from that. Minister Blizzard is an extreme environmentalist who can act as a cautionary example of what Diana could be like if she becomes too overzealous in her mission. A Jack Frost link could be interesting, but his pre-Crisis origin as hailing from Iceberg Land works fine as it is (with the rest of his people, led by Snowina, wanting the same things he does so a pro-environmentalist view can be heard separate from his extremism).

Zara being an Ifrit or powered by one totally needs to happen though.

[Mel Dyer]

I definitely like some interconnectedness between some of a hero’s foes. And mixing them up in some novel ways to see what happens. The enemy of your enemy is your friend… and potentially another enemy and all that. I kind of think of it as one big tapestry with some threads woven together to create the whole picture. There’s a richness in that to me...

Is this inter-connectedness achieved by a 'Villainy' town or shared background, as you see it?

...All due respect to Gateway, but I have another city in mind for some Wonder adventure and action. Quite a few of Diana’s foes are on a grander scale, similar to Superman, so I see Diana having a place as a home, but also as a global, intergalactic, inter-dimensional, etc. adventurer.

We've (Ami Mizuno, you and I) been discussing this idea of an inter-dimensional port town, hosting time-travellers, mystical beings, aliens...for so long, I couldn't recall the name. Conceptually, it was a "gateway city", ..but Ami actually had 'Gateway City' in mind, I think.

Alpha also shared similar ideas about an iconic city for Diana, in these discussions, as I recall now.

[Agent Z]

What supervillain "theme" or type would most of you agree is best for Wonder Woman? And is anyone here against the rogues having a driving motivation or reason for doing whatever villainous thing, they typically do? Do they need a theme or reason for their villainy, or should it be something different and original, every time?

Grant Morrison's Superwoman is a perfect example of what is wrong with the way female supervillains are written.

[Alpha]

Alpha also shared similar ideas about an iconic city for Diana, in these discussions, as I recall now.

I don't see a point to Diana choosing a city to protect, but I do think the best way for her to enact real change in her world is by creating a distinct society in a commune. Something extraordinary and reflective of her ideals and ambitions.

But I wouldn't put this place in the U.S.A. or Europe.

I would put it in North Africa, near Tunisia, which was a democratic country between 2014 and 2021, the only member of the Arab league of to be so.

[Frontier]

Dr. Psycho makes a cameo appearance in this week's Green Arrow.

[WonderScott]

Dr. Psycho makes a cameo appearance in this week's Green Arrow.

Interesting. I wish they’d keep him Diana-focused though!

[Mel Dyer]

"Grant Morrison's Superwoman is a perfect example of what is wrong with the way female supervillains are written."

Couldn't disagree more.

Morrison's Superwoman was a sexy, brilliant, passionate, independent and sexually empowered and powerful supervillainess and major turn-on for any red-blooded heterosexual male, young or old, who read E2. Anyone, straight or similarly oriented, can attest to enjoying other aspects of the character and the story, she was featured in -the action, the conflict, superpowers, etc - as much as the things about her, we thought were sexy.

There's nothing wrong with creating a female character, who is sexually exciting to straight men, and nothing shameful about being excited by Superwoman. Furthermore, being turned on by her, Dark Phoenix, Wonder Woman or any female character in a fictional work doesn't mean you are intellectually incapable of enjoying other aspects of that work or ANY media work, fiction or non-fiction.

I think dismissing how Superwoman and similar female characters are written, as inherently "wrong", ..is anti-feminist, anti-heterosexual and anti-male. It's not inclusive or progressive, in any way.

There's nothing feminist about wanting a soft, padded, desensualized universe for fictional female characters to stumble around in, ..one where the impact of their choices of how to present themselves to or engage others, sensually, is rendered inconsequential by over-protective, embryonic tyrants...usually a well-meaning male. Morrison's Superwoman can punch Superman into next Easter; she doesn't need it.

So, who is that really for? Not women, ..real or fictional.

It's time we point out, here in our WW fan community, that everything in the media, which is affirmative of straight male interests (attraction to women) isn't wrong or criminal. Further, the condemnation of anything we see, which straight males find exciting, ..isn't automatically feminist, progressive, just ..or right. Or better.

This fifty-years long WW fan thinks Grant Morrison's Superwoman was way hot. No apologies (over here) for thinking that, ..and if you don't, that's your problem or your reality. It's not Grant Morrison's and not the problem of comic fans, who happen to be attracted to women.

Again, being anti-str8 or anti-man...not inclusive and not feminist.

I don't see a point to Diana choosing a city to protect, but I do think the best way for her to enact real change in her world is by creating a distinct society in a commune. Something extraordinary and reflective of her ideals and ambitions.

But I wouldn't put this place in the U.S.A. or Europe.

I would put it in North Africa, near Tunisia, which was a democratic country between 2014 and 2021, the only member of the Arab league of to be so.

So this commune or enclosed society is something like Genosha or Magneto's asteroid in the X-MEN comics? I like the prospect of how this idea broadens Wonder Woman's role in her narrative and the broader DC Universe.

Making it a city, one that's an inter-dimensional gateway or port city for paranormal beings of diverse backgrounds, invites writers to see Wonder Woman's world as extending beyond myth-inspired heroic fantasy elements of it. This expanded view might be extended to Ares, Doctor Cyber and Circe, finally realizing their potential to be trans-genre characters, ready for use in stories that show them to be considerable threats to the DCU, at large...

Showing them to be equals of Darkseid, Trigon and the rest, by people, who don't read WW. I think WW fans, here and elsewhere, would be thrilled if comic fans outside of our community were looking for Circe and the others - not all of them, but more of them - feeling they were universally appealing enough for inclusion in a broad range of stories, across the DCU.

[Dr. Poison]

Interesting. I wish they’d keep him Diana-focused though!

Dr. Psycho & the Arrow characters don't really interact but I think it's good to show Diana's villains outside her comic to reinforce their prominence.

[HestiasHearth]

Grant Morrison's Superwoman is a perfect example of what is wrong with the way female supervillains are written.

Tell us more, please. Never read Morrison's books that featured Superwoman, but would love to hear what is it that made you feel like that.

Couldn't disagree more.

Morrison's Superwoman was a sexy, brilliant, passionate, independent and sexually empowered and powerful supervillainess and major turn-on for any red-blooded heterosexual male, young or old, who read E2. Anyone, straight or similarly oriented, can attest to enjoying other aspects of the character and the story, she was featured in -the action, the conflict, superpowers, etc - as much as the things about her, we thought were sexy.

There's nothing wrong with creating a female character, who is sexually exciting to straight men, and nothing shameful about being excited by Superwoman. Furthermore, being turned on by her, Dark Phoenix, Wonder Woman or any female character in a fictional work doesn't mean you are intellectually incapable of enjoying other aspects of that work or ANY media work, fiction or non-fiction.

I think dismissing how Superwoman and similar female characters are written, as inherently "wrong", ..is anti-feminist, anti-heterosexual and anti-male. It's not inclusive or progressive, in any way.

It's time we point out, here in our WW fan community, that everything in the media, which is affirmative of straight male interests (attraction to women) isn't wrong or criminal. Further, the condemnation of anything we see, which straight males find exciting, ..isn't automatically feminist, progressive, just ..or right. Or better.

This fifty-years long WW fan thinks Grant Morrison's Superwoman was way hot. No apologies (over here) for thinking that, ..and if you don't, that's your problem or your reality. It's not Grant Morrison's and not the problem of comic fans, who happen to be attracted to women.

Again, being anti-str8 or anti-man...not inclusive and not feminist.

I am super confused. How was Agent Z's implying in any way that they dislike Morrison's SW due to her being attractive to hetero men???

[WonderScott]

Is this inter-connectedness achieved by a 'Villainy' town or shared background, as you see it?



We've (Ami Mizuno, you and I) been discussing this idea of an inter-dimensional port town, hosting time-travellers, mystical beings, aliens...for so long, I couldn't recall the name. Conceptually, it was a "gateway city", ..but Ami actually had 'Gateway City' in mind, I think.

Alpha also shared similar ideas about an iconic city for Diana, in these discussions, as I recall now.

The way I look at it, it includes a “city” because of time-honored superhero tropes (especially DC hero tropes), but it’s bigger than that too. Diana is a focal point of enmity for her villains over time, as their introductions happen and they engage with one another over time. They’re in Diana’s orbit and may cross each other's paths and houses and Mercury retrogrades and cazimis at different times, if I play with the full astrology/cosmological analogy. It’s not just a single space, but Diana herself that might bring them into alignment or conflict.

I’m also a fan of DC’s hero’s cities - I don’t mind the trope because it’s so traditional comic book-y and fun for creatives to create with over time.

I like concept of Gateway that we and Ami Mizuno have discussed, I just landed in another spot over time as well. (He says mysteriously [I’m still working on my Wonder Woman Series Bible Thingee.])