Damian Wayne/Robin Appreciation 2023.

[dietrich]

The lengths fans go to to whitewash Talia. She was a bad guy with racist writing. It did not start with Damian or Morrison and they didn't write them the worst.

[dietrich]

She got her entire history and character changed to give Damian a tragic backstory and drama. Plus the fandom judges a mother much harsher than a childless female character and they are already treated worse than male characters.

I love Damian, but his character has damaged Talia. A lot.

Nope. Winnick and Jason 's character have done the worst damage to Talia. Raping an underage damaged teen is literally the worst. How much lower can one go?

Everything you claim about Damian is true of Jason not Damian.

@ahaz ibn wasn't adopted.

[dietrich]

Gotham War is bafflingly bad. Now they got Bruce doing a Damian and tryeto force change people's personality. This is Bruce who had a visceral reaction to mind wiping Wayne we are talking about. I can't wait for this event to be over.

This is up there as one of the worst crossovers

[Aahz]

@ahaz ibn wasn't adopted.

I never read that story, but my main point is that the original Baby from "Son of the Demon" was.

[Aahz]

Was Talia a member of the LOA when Cass was retconed?

Probably, but how old do think Talia was when the training of Cass went down? And as far as I can tell there is no indication Talian had anything to do with it.

Did Talia get Jason any sort of therapy or help him get over his unhealthy feelings towards batman and his family?

Not directly, but iirc it is said something in lost days kept sending him to new trainers to keep him from going after Batman, and hoping that he would get over it.

Did Talia sleep with an underage Jason?

In a Comic from 2010, that's way after Morrison started his run. And it is not entirely sure if Jason was supposed to be under age at the time, when it happend, he is at least not drawn like it, and the DC writers and editors are unfortunately really bad at keeping track of timelines and ages.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Also Talia while being sided with the LOA also was shown to have a conscience and standards and often teared the line between good and evil in a way that made her empathetic. Such as with the LexCorp thing. I think the complaint people have Morrison is making her more on dimensionally evil.

[Rac7d*]

Gotham War is bafflingly bad. Now they got Bruce doing a Damian and tryeto force change people's personality. This is Bruce who had a visceral reaction to mind wiping Wayne we are talking about. I can't wait for this event to be over.

Doing a Damian, Zatanna did it first
It’s like the big stain on her character

[Astralabius]

The lengths fans go to to whitewash Talia. She was a bad guy with racist writing. It did not start with Damian or Morrison and they didn't write them the worst.

The lenghts you go to whitewash Morrison's racist writing is why I never cared and never will care for your opinion, fanboy.

[Astralabius]

Nope. Winnick and Jason 's character have done the worst damage to Talia. Raping an underage damaged teen is literally the worst. How much lower can one go?

Everything you claim about Damian is true of Jason not Damian.

@ahaz ibn wasn't adopted.

That was AFTER Morrison's horrible character assassination that turned Talia into a rapist. Lost Days was 2010.
And the villainous acts we saw Talia committing in the 2000s before Morrison's run only happened after Talia got broken and brainwashed in Death of the Maiden. Characters can come back from brainwashing, but Morrison acted as if Talia had been evil and crazy since day one and turned her into a woman scorned that would kill animals, rape, work with Nazis, kill her own child....sorry, but if you knew anything about classic Talia you would acknowledge just how wrong you always are about her.

And I have explained this to you MANY times. Yet you still always act as if nobody ever corrected your strong misconceptions because you don't want to admit that your beloved Morrison could ever do something wrong.

[Jackalope89]

Well, that part of Lost Days was retconned in New 52/Rebirth when Talia sent Jason to the All Caste. Whom, overall, did help Jason with a lot of his trauma. Sadly, outside of his own standalone series, most writers don't even acknowledge the All Caste and its effects for Jason's story. Which is a damn shame, as its actually interesting, poses Talia as closer to a sister/mentor figure than anything, gives Jason his own niche besides being the "angry one that lurks in the poor side of town". and his own agency.

Talia's story from the getgo was a mess. It wasn't Damian that messed with her character, it was the writers from her inception that did. She's been more morally grey than her father, yes. But she's also been a supporter of his since day one. And Morrison really screwed up with Damian's conception, as that night was consensual, and Morrison had to backtrack on his own narrative and admit as much. Damian would still be a surprise, but not the nightmare of consent surrounding that night. Aside from that, a lot of what Talia did with Damian, doesn't exactly run counter to who she was (as racial stereotyping as it was) before him though.

[Arctic Cyclist]

Nope. Winnick and Jason 's character have done the worst damage to Talia. Raping an underage damaged teen is literally the worst. How much lower can one go?

Everything you claim about Damian is true of Jason not Damian.

@ahaz ibn wasn't adopted.

Except a) it was well established through the story (if you bothered to read it) that Jason was over 18, b) fully cognizant of his actions and as stable as any 18-21 year old male is capable of being, c) not acting under the influence of the Lazarus Pits, d) gave enthusiastic consent, and e) Talia was actually the one who was suffering from PTSD and Lazarus Pit poisoning and therefore wasn’t in a place where she could give consent.

Of course, Jason is white which means he’s always going to be infantilized and considered a victim. Winnick himself has consistently expressed regret and remorse for that scene as he thought that all of the points mentioned above were clear and obvious to readers.

[Aahz]

Except a) it was well established through the story (if you bothered to read it) that Jason was over 18,

Thing is that Jason 18 Birthday was canonically placed at the beginning of War Games, and the Ending of Lost Days leads into Hush. And since War Games happens after Hush, Jason could not be 18 at the time...

But I'm pretty sure that the writers and editors didn't realize that.

[dietrich]

Also Talia while being sided with the LOA also was shown to have a conscience and standards and often teared the line between good and evil in a way that made her empathetic. Such as with the LexCorp thing. I think the complaint people have Morrison is making her more on dimensionally evil.

Conscience and Standards. like when she killed Heretic for killing Damian making it clear he crossed the line?
Conscience and Standards like when she'd go against her father to help Bruce? Making it clear that she has some autonomy and is fully willing and capable of standing against the Loa and Ra's like in the resurrection of Ra's?

Conscience and standards are things bad guys also have. Morrison Talia had those and she wasn't one dimensional. She was more proactively 'evil'.
Talia under Morrison was anything but One dimensional.

Talia is a willing member in the the side of of a terror group whose goal is to eliminate a sizeable percent of humans to balance the world!

She's demonstrated that she has autonomy to deviate and defy the Loa and Ra's when their plans/decisions don't line up with her personal standards/values/beliefs/ethics/morals/inner small voice. So she isn't a powerless puppet as some try to argue.

She's a willing participant. Her long established and continued allegiance to the LoA and their goal while being able to act independently shows that her standards and to her Conscience Mass Murder as a means to a healtierworld is acceptable.

That's evil.

[dietrich]

Well, that part of Lost Days was retconned in New 52/Rebirth when Talia sent Jason to the All Caste. Whom, overall, did help Jason with a lot of his trauma. Sadly, outside of his own standalone series, most writers don't even acknowledge the All Caste and its effects for Jason's story. Which is a damn shame, as its actually interesting, poses Talia as closer to a sister/mentor figure than anything, gives Jason his own niche besides being the "angry one that lurks in the poor side of town". and his own agency.

Talia's story from the getgo was a mess. It wasn't Damian that messed with her character, it was the writers from her inception that did. She's been more morally grey than her father, yes. But she's also been a supporter of his since day one. And Morrison really screwed up with Damian's conception, as that night was consensual, and Morrison had to backtrack on his own narrative and admit as much. Damian would still be a surprise, but not the nightmare of consent surrounding that night. Aside from that, a lot of what Talia did with Damian, doesn't exactly run counter to who she was (as racial stereotyping as it was) before him though.

The night was consensual even under Morrison. This is very clear in the dialogue the morning after.
The nightmare of consent arises from the fact that while the sexual act was consensual the procreation wasn't.
Talia took stepsx to guarantee fertilisation without Bruce knowing or consenting.

I don't know how this misconception of the events is so prevalent. Talia and bruce were already lovers in the past and to this day he';s still sexually attracted to her. Their kiss days after Damian's death shows he still would and the way he talks about her shows that he still has love for her.

Talia can seduce Bruce without resorting to drugs. However what the Al ghul's have always wanted and failed at was a tying Batman to the LOA and Al Ghul's in a union that's hard to server.

That's the part that Bruce always kick's back against. being Ra's heir, Forced Marriage to talia. Those were all attempts at merging the two houses/powers/sides that failed.

This is why Talia needing to and using covert means to get pregnant make sense. It's in character, is in line with pre- morrison canon and even though fandom bullied Morrison into stating he might have mis remembered. They didn't and they never backtracked. [The panel in batman Inc where the retcon supposedly happened still shows the drink is spiked]

Bruce would have reservations about starting a family with Talia even while being open to intercourse.

[dietrich]

The lenghts you go to whitewash Morrison's racist writing is why I never cared and never will care for your opinion, fanboy.

That was AFTER Morrison's horrible character assassination that turned Talia into a rapist. Lost Days was 2010.
And the villainous acts we saw Talia committing in the 2000s before Morrison's run only happened after Talia got broken and brainwashed in Death of the Maiden. Characters can come back from brainwashing, but Morrison acted as if Talia had been evil and crazy since day one and turned her into a woman scorned that would kill animals, rape, work with Nazis, kill her own child....sorry, but if you knew anything about classic Talia you would acknowledge just how wrong you always are about her.

And I have explained this to you MANY times. Yet you still always act as if nobody ever corrected your strong misconceptions because you don't want to admit that your beloved Morrison could ever do something wrong.

It's okay if you don't care about my opinions and it's okay if you disagree.

I never said that Morrison's Talia wasn't racist. How could it not be when the pretty much everything about about the character, her role and lore is racist. The character concept is racist. It was from her inception.

Morrison made her guilty of rape but that wasn't character assassination since there is canon evidence that she is willing and has being party to efforts to entrap Batman and tie him to Ra's and the lOA. Entrapment via pregnancy is simply another scheme in an ongoing goal to bring batman into the fold.

The method is different but the goal has always been the same and that goal predates Morrison. Morrison's Talia isn't more or less racist and it isn't more villainous than the character she was prior. Regardless of Death of the Maidens and what was revealed in that story.

I am well aware of Talia's character and I've read 'classic' Talia and her actions under Morrison aren't OCC. They just made her fully in control. Ownership. She is more decisive and is more proactive Yes. She's The antagonist rather than an antagonist. That's all.