Steve Rogers/Captain America Appreciation 2023

[Mantis-Ray]

I get the message and the approach and I liked the Caps', I just don't need multiple people running around calling themselves Captain America. Although they'll probably appear far more infrequently moving forward.

I once had this discussion with someone that said the railroad caps don't really count. They are more cosplayers of Cap than actually being Cap.

Which like the sentiment is nice but unless they are actually leading a book and carrying the legitimate vibranium shield, they are more his fan-club than anything resembling equals.

[phonogram12]

Po-TAY-to / Po-TAH-to...just integrate into a larger more capable network.

Integration into the United States of Captain America it is then!

That is my point as well...they should not. But they do need to be capable of defending. And they need to be able to operate in any environment. That is the kind of training I am talking about.

But they seem to be operating at a level they're doing just fine at. Little battles need fighting, too, you know. Not everyone needs to be fighting AIM.

And not to beat a dead horse, but.....Steve has a history or specifically keeping untrained people out of the field.

I mean, even Batman has admitted in the past that he never would've been able to keep any of his apprentices from doing what they wanted to do, with or without his supervision.

I think a back up story where Steve has them brought somewhere and given some serious training that gets them not necessarily to Steve's, Bucky's or Sam's level but to maybe Kate Bishop's level.

Fair enough.

I get the message and the approach and I liked the Caps', I just don't need multiple people running around calling themselves Captain America. Although they'll probably appear far more infrequently moving forward.

I hope not. I really liked Cap of the Railways inclusion in this latest issue.

"Tactical" and "modern" are like my least favorite buzz words for Superhero costumes.

At the same time, I believe holding on to tradition for nothing but tradition's sake stifles creativity. Things evolve as they should.

Granted you probably get more page space with actual fisticuffs...

I think there's a lot to be said about showing regular people saving people or helping people, too. Heroism doesn't always have to include fisticuffs.

I once had this discussion with someone that said the railroad caps don't really count. They are more cosplayers of Cap than actually being Cap.

Which like the sentiment is nice but unless they are actually leading a book and carrying the legitimate vibranium shield, they are more his fan-club than anything resembling equals.

I mean, are anyone within this universe or reading the comics actually think that's what Marvel's editorial intended them to be? Their really just a support system who all happen to share his name, which I don't think there's anything wrong with in the least.

[Frontier]

I hope not. I really liked Cap of the Railways inclusion in this latest issue.

I guess it depends on how invested you are in the characters, because they aren't the first I'd expect or want to show up in Steve's solo book.

Although throw in Cap of the Railways with a D-Man appearance...

At the same time, I believe holding on to tradition for nothing but tradition's sake stifles creativity. Things evolve as they should.

I don't think it's so much tradition for tradition's sake (especially since we're talking about a relatively modern costume in this instance) so much as a just what looks visually appealing and "pops", and sometimes artists can miss the forest for the trees when they update something, though it can be on a case-by-case basis and entirely up to the aesthetic taste of the audience.

Although at least McKelvie's design was better than "riot cop" Cap from the Avengers game.

I think there's a lot to be said about showing regular people saving people or helping people, too. Heroism doesn't always have to include fisticuffs.

True, but there's only so much you can show on the page.

[Ragu]

That being said, it was interesting Fury and Sharon seemed pretty chill about it since they're also spies with knowledge of state secrets. Then again, I guess they might also believe there's little point since Krakoa has a ton of extremely strong telepaths who likely can find out things anyway, but that's ust a headcanon.

I thought the likely reason Peggy was against having her mind prodded was that she was working with Bucky unbeknownst to the rest of the team.

One thing I noticed is that they seemed to call MODOC the last starpoint, even though last issue they only knew about three. Probably a slip up, I guess.

[hareluyafan1]

I love the tactical bit. Very modern.

Superheroes are mythic figures. They should not be "modern" or "tactical." They should be iconic.

Look at Ancient Greek artwork depicting Heracles wrestling the Nemean Lion in his birthday suit. Do you think the Ancient Greeks thought that was "tactical?"

[Chris0013]

I mean, even Batman has admitted in the past that he never would've been able to keep any of his apprentices from doing what they wanted to do, with or without his supervision.

Yes...but everyone Batman works with is highly trained. It is not like he took a bunch of randos off the street, put them in costumes and threw them at the Joker.

[Mantis-Ray]

Yes...but everyone Batman works with is highly trained. It is not like he took a bunch of randos off the street, put them in costumes and threw them at the Joker.

The funny thing is Batman is very protective of anyone doing any vigilantism bearing his insignia or doing any vigilantism in general in his city.

Though its out of concern for people's safety, not wanting anyone to needlessly endanger their lives especially since wearing his mark pants a target on their backs.

The thing with his apprentices is that yes he knows he can't stop them so he makes sure to properly train them so they are at least prepared to survive the dangerous lifestyle.

[Mantis-Ray]

Here's a question for long-time Cap readers, is the concept of the Circle "out of place" for Captain America?

Had a discussion with a friend, he doesn't read Cap but when I told him all the stuff surrounding the Circle he stated his dislike of it because he believes it to be trying to hard to be "mythological" and disrupts Cap's origin as just a normal guy who picked simply cause of his good heart.

What do you think, is the concept and scale of the Circle really out of place for Cap?

[Chris0013]

Here's a question for long-time Cap readers, is the concept of the Circle "out of place" for Captain America?

Had a discussion with a friend, he doesn't read Cap but when I told him all the stuff surrounding the Circle he stated his dislike of it because he believes it to be trying to hard to be "mythological" and disrupts Cap's origin as just a normal guy who picked simply cause of his good heart.

What do you think, is the concept and scale of the Circle really out of place for Cap?

That has been my big issue with them. The retcon of their manipulation of Steve's and Bucky's origins, that change to the creation of the shield from accident to purposeful.

It could have easily been that it was the Secret Empire doing all this in a new bid for global domination but apparently the writer has his story to tell with no regard for continuity.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Here's a question for long-time Cap readers, is the concept of the Circle "out of place" for Captain America?

Had a discussion with a friend, he doesn't read Cap but when I told him all the stuff surrounding the Circle he stated his dislike of it because he believes it to be trying to hard to be "mythological" and disrupts Cap's origin as just a normal guy who picked simply cause of his good heart.

What do you think, is the concept and scale of the Circle really out of place for Cap?

It reminded me of Brubaker's run so I thought it was fine. I'm fine with Cap in mythical/mystical stories. However his origins don't need to be mystical.

[Mantis-Ray]

That has been my big issue with them. The retcon of their manipulation of Steve's and Bucky's origins, that change to the creation of the shield from accident to purposeful.

It could have easily been that it was the Secret Empire doing all this in a new bid for global domination but apparently the writer has his story to tell with no regard for continuity.

So its the retcon of Steve and Bucky's origins is the problem right?

Had those been left alone, the whole big conspiracy angle of the Circle would be fine?

Also did the Circle have a hand in Project Rebirth? I forget if that was stated or not.

It reminded me of Brubaker's run so I thought it was fine. I'm fine with Cap in mythical/mystical stories. However his origins don't need to be mystical.

I was reminded of the Brubaker run too. Also did the deep conspiracy thing though granted not as massive as here.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I'm fine with a tactical outfit for Steve as he is mainly a soldier with some expierence as a spy. I thought the look in Winter Soldier was perfect.

A tactical but stylish outfit would be ideal.

So its the retcon of Steve and Bucky's origins is the problem right?

Had those been left alone, the whole big conspiracy angle of the Circle would be fine?

Also did the Circle have a hand in Project Rebirth? I forget if that was stated or not.



I was reminded of the Brubaker run too. Also did the deep conspiracy thing though granted not as massive as here.

I think I missed that bit so I'll have to reread it. As long as Erskine chose Steve because he was a good man I'm fine with it.

[Chris0013]

So its the retcon of Steve and Bucky's origins is the problem right?

Had those been left alone, the whole big conspiracy angle of the Circle would be fine?

Also did the Circle have a hand in Project Rebirth? I forget if that was stated or not.

A big part of it...but once you take that out it is all nothing but a Secret Empire story so why create another group that is secretly controlling things?

[Huntsman Spider]

So its the retcon of Steve and Bucky's origins is the problem right?

Had those been left alone, the whole big conspiracy angle of the Circle would be fine?

Also did the Circle have a hand in Project Rebirth? I forget if that was stated or not.



I was reminded of the Brubaker run too. Also did the deep conspiracy thing though granted not as massive as here.

Funny enough, Project Rebirth was already retconned to make Captain America the unknowing first iteration of a series of anti-mutant superhuman weapons, even being called "Weapon I/One" to sync up with Wolverine of the X-Men being Weapon X (Ten) and the whole thing being masterminded by Weapon Plus, which was briefly revisited in a Captain America/Wolverine one-shot from a few years back.

[Chris0013]

Funny enough, Project Rebirth was already retconned to make Captain America the unknowing first iteration of a series of anti-mutant superhuman weapons, even being called "Weapon I/One" to sync up with Wolverine of the X-Men being Weapon X (Ten) and the whole thing being masterminded by Weapon Plus, which was briefly revisited in a Captain America/Wolverine one-shot from a few years back.

Which adds to the annoyance...a retcon on top of a retcon. They need to stop changing the past and focus on going forward.