Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[whitecrown]

Well years ago in Wizard magazine, Bendis said he would never write Batman, and I think now we know something changed to make him change his mind.
I don't spend a lot of time on forums anywhere, so I don't know the theories that have been said for years, my experience comes from interviews, magazines and my internship, my boss had original plan documents for various characters as the real reason for the separation of Peter and Mary Jean, I understand that there was never a real plan for Jean to return in those years. I could be wrong? of course, but give me something authentic to change my mind, not some years-old theory.

A lot of times writers aren't allowed to be 100% truthful in interviews, especially if they can't spoil something or aren't allowed to talk about something not set in stone yet.

That sounds like a very interesting internship. For Peter and MJ, does this mean that before their marriage was erased from existence, writers were coming up with ways to potentially separate them by introducing new love interests?

With Jean, I didn't mean to suggest that Bendis had a full plan about Jean's return that was last-minute vetoed by Marvel or that Marvel was even exploring. You're right that Marvel never had any intention of resurrecting Jean in the 2000s era which is why you never saw anything to suggest the contrary. It's well known now that Marvel wanted Jean to stay dead thanks to a certain one-eyed mutant. What I've heard with Bendis is only that he wanted to bring Jean back and have her join the Avengers but Marvel wouldn't let him. That means that there was likely not an outline or plan fully formulated, so much as a desire or even a pitch that was instantly shot down. It was never anything concrete because Marvel wouldn't even let it get to that stage, it was just something Bendis had wanted to do if he could.

[whitecrown]

I don't think we'll see that either. I think we will see Famke vs Famke. Famke will play an older version of Sophie's Jean. Because remember: Famke's Jean and Sophie's Jean are literally the same character, just in different time periods.

You mean like the DOFP timeline Jean in 90s costume fighting X3 Dark Phoenix Jean?

[Gnostic]

You mean like the DOFP timeline Jean in 90s costume fighting X3 Dark Phoenix Jean?

Yes, basically. Sophie's Jean is suppose to eventually grow into the Jean we saw at the end of DOFP.

[whitecrown]

Yes, basically. Sophie's Jean is suppose to eventually grow into the Jean we saw at the end of DOFP.

Supposedly although I personally can't see it. I felt she was miscast and she never felt like Jean to me. But I felt that for most of the new cast like Nicholas Hoult, Michael Fassbender, and especially JLaw.

[v_jeovanne]

A lot of times writers aren't allowed to be 100% truthful in interviews, especially if they can't spoil something or aren't allowed to talk about something not set in stone yet.

That sounds like a very interesting internship. For Peter and MJ, does this mean that before their marriage was erased from existence, writers were coming up with ways to potentially separate them by introducing new love interests?

With Jean, I didn't mean to suggest that Bendis had a full plan about Jean's return that was last-minute vetoed by Marvel or that Marvel was even exploring. You're right that Marvel never had any intention of resurrecting Jean in the 2000s era which is why you never saw anything to suggest the contrary. It's well known now that Marvel wanted Jean to stay dead thanks to a certain one-eyed mutant. What I've heard with Bendis is only that he wanted to bring Jean back and have her join the Avengers but Marvel wouldn't let him. That means that there was likely not an outline or plan fully formulated, so much as a desire or even a pitch that was instantly shot down. It was never anything concrete because Marvel wouldn't even let it get to that stage, it was just something Bendis had wanted to do if he could.

Not new, the original idea was to return an old blond love to Peter.
That could be true but it's not Cyclops's fault, it's more related to the IP of the characters for their adaptation to other media than to a theory to blame a certain one-eyed character as you say. Remember that there are rumors that Wheddon was writing Scott and Jean as a couple in Astonishing.

[Brunette]

Sophie Turner was the worst version of Jean in the movies. I know it's not the fault of the actress but the writers who made her a student considered weird and isolated.
This is the complete opposite of the comics, in which Jean is extremely charismatic, considered a pupil of Xavier, sociable, she is the heart of the X-Men and helps to keep her teammates together.
And the only reason her relationship with Scott works is that, she's more sociable and empathetic, helping him deal with his emotions. Scott is a more rational, reserved introvert, helping her to be more grounded.
If they ever want to portray Jott in movies again, this is the sure way to make it work and it was in comics in the 70s and 80s.

[Gnostic]

Sophie Turner was the worst version of Jean in the movies. I know it's not the fault of the actress but the writers who made her a student considered weird and isolated.
This is the complete opposite of the comics, in which Jean is extremely charismatic, considered a pupil of Xavier, sociable, she is the heart of the X-Men and helps to keep her teammates together.
And the only reason her relationship with Scott works is that, she's more sociable and empathetic, helping him deal with his emotions. Scott is a more rational, reserved introvert, helping her to be more grounded.
If they ever want to portray Jott in movies again, this is the sure way to make it work and it was in comics in the 70s and 80s.

To be fair, Jean in the comics was sorta like that at one point. Before she met Xavier, Jean did isolated herself from others due to lacking control of her powers. That's what Sophie's Jean was based on.

[whitecrown]

Not new, the original idea was to return an old blond love to Peter.
That could be true but it's not Cyclops's fault, it's more related to the IP of the characters for their adaptation to other media than to a theory to blame a certain one-eyed character as you say. Remember that there are rumors that Wheddon was writing Scott and Jean as a couple in Astonishing.

Oh, how interesting. Was Gwen Stacy's return connected to the original ideas for Sins Past that Peter and Gwen would have secret children? Or was Gwen's return separate from all that?

What I've always heard is that Marvel liked Morrison's take on Cyclops and his new relationship enough that they decided Jean was better off dead. Like with Peter and MJ, where they wanted to break up the marriage but felt divorce would age them, they felt similarly with Scott and Jean. They needed the marriage over but they wouldn't divorce them so Jean being killed off permanently was the route to go.

I didn't know Whedon originally had Jean in his plans for Astonishing. Do you know anything more about that? Morrison's plan for Jean was that she would return in Here Comes Tomorrow, #154, after her death in #150, and she wouldn't have been permanently killed off but like I said above, Marvel decided to make it a permanent death so Scott could have a new relationship. That's why I'm inclined to blame Cyclops as a character because Jean was literally killed off and stayed dead for fourteen years for him. Mary Jane wasn't much better off since her marriage was erased out of existence and for years, she disappeared from the Spider-Man comics.

[whitecrown]

To be fair, Jean in the comics was sorta like that at one point. Before she met Xavier, Jean did isolated herself from others due to lacking control of her powers. That's what Sophie's Jean was based on.

Sophie Turner was the worst version of Jean in the movies. I know it's not the fault of the actress but the writers who made her a student considered weird and isolated.
This is the complete opposite of the comics, in which Jean is extremely charismatic, considered a pupil of Xavier, sociable, she is the heart of the X-Men and helps to keep her teammates together.
And the only reason her relationship with Scott works is that, she's more sociable and empathetic, helping him deal with his emotions. Scott is a more rational, reserved introvert, helping her to be more grounded.
If they ever want to portray Jott in movies again, this is the sure way to make it work and it was in comics in the 70s and 80s.

I have issues with Sophie's Jean but I didn't mean the characterization that she's considered an outcast or freak by others in Apocalypse because that was true to Jean when she first developed her powers. The movies were leaning on that I guess to make her and Scott both outcasts and being able to bond over an inability to control their powers, which does differ from their early dynamic in the comics. I can see why you disliked it, but that part didn't really bother me although ideally she'd be a lot closer to the version you described later on where she's more empathetic and compassionate and is known for her bond with others.

My main issue with Sophie is that she just came across as a very wooden actress. The writing wasn't great but Sophie did not have the ability to elevate it the way Famke did. The writing for Famke wasn't always super great either, especially in X3 where she's treated like an afterthought, yet Famke was a gifted enough actress that she could elevate the material and still make Jean come across like a human being who we are connected to and feel for. There's a reason Famke won a Saturn Award for Best Supporting Actress for her performance in X3.

Sophie's lack of career options since GoT also indicates to me that the public has realized she's not that great of an actress. Looking at her GoT peers, I thought Maisie Williams was a lot more natural in The New Mutants and Emilia Clarke has kept up a movie career in a way that Sophie has not.

[v_jeovanne]

Oh, how interesting. Was Gwen Stacy's return connected to the original ideas for Sins Past that Peter and Gwen would have secret children? Or was Gwen's return separate from all that?

What I've always heard is that Marvel liked Morrison's take on Cyclops and his new relationship enough that they decided Jean was better off dead. Like with Peter and MJ, where they wanted to break up the marriage but felt divorce would age them, they felt similarly with Scott and Jean. They needed the marriage over but they wouldn't divorce them so Jean being killed off permanently was the route to go.

I didn't know Whedon originally had Jean in his plans for Astonishing. Do you know anything more about that? Morrison's plan for Jean was that she would return in Here Comes Tomorrow, #154, after her death in #150, and she wouldn't have been permanently killed off but like I said above, Marvel decided to make it a permanent death so Scott could have a new relationship. That's why I'm inclined to blame Cyclops as a character because Jean was literally killed off and stayed dead for fourteen years for him. Mary Jane wasn't much better off since her marriage was erased out of existence and for years, she disappeared from the Spider-Man comics.

So you'd rather blame a fictional character for something the writers do? very Claremont of you. What would you think if I told you that the blame for the years that Jean was dead is due to another character that is not Cyclops or Emma?

Is it okay if I send you a private message? so we don't talk about other things in the thread or generate rumors and speculation.

[Havok83]

Sophie Turner was the worst version of Jean in the movies. I know it's not the fault of the actress but the writers who made her a student considered weird and isolated.
This is the complete opposite of the comics, in which Jean is extremely charismatic, considered a pupil of Xavier, sociable, she is the heart of the X-Men and helps to keep her teammates together.
And the only reason her relationship with Scott works is that, she's more sociable and empathetic, helping him deal with his emotions. Scott is a more rational, reserved introvert, helping her to be more grounded.
If they ever want to portray Jott in movies again, this is the sure way to make it work and it was in comics in the 70s and 80s.

It made sense in context with their origins. 616 Jean had her TP locked before she joined the school and movie Jean didnt. I can definitely see why it may have been difficult for her to want to get too close to people with a bunch of thoughts in her head that werent her own. Likewise, it makes sense why those around her wouldnt want to get close to her either bc TP is an invasive power. 616 Jean didnt have that issue and was far more adjsuted by the time she actually did get access to her TP

[whitecrown]

So you'd rather blame a fictional character for something the writers do? very Claremont of you. What would you think if I told you that the blame for the years that Jean was dead is due to another character that is not Cyclops or Emma?

Is it okay if I send you a private message? so we don't talk about other things in the thread or generate rumors and speculation.

I specifically blame Cyclops here because the Marvel writers and editors lived vicariously through him for about a decade. They turned the original character into something he was not (Mutant Hitler) and he dominated the X-Books for what I consider their worst period. It wasn't just Jean who was affected because any character who wasn't Cyclops or in his Brotherhood of (formerly?) Evil Mutants was similarly treated as an afterthought. The X-Women especially got the brunt of it so that a fake blonde with a past history of rape could be elevated to the HBIC with Storm being written out of the X-Books with her marriage, Lorna and Rachel being thrown into space, Kitty being trapped in a bullet, etc. Rogue and Psylocke were the only ones who were able to recover because they found secondary books with writers who still valued them and made them protagonists and I've noticed that this is a reason why Mike Carey's X-Men: Legacy and Rick Remender's Uncanny X-Force are still considered great runs, whereas everything else from that era often has a very negative reputation now. Yet, in the flagship X-Titles and crossovers, Rogue and Psylocke were always absent or wallpaper so it's only thanks to those writers that they got any spotlight.

Yes, please feel free to message me. I'm very curious about any character that affected Jean's trajectory.

[v_jeovanne]

I specifically blame Cyclops here because the Marvel writers and editors lived vicariously through him for about a decade. They turned the original character into something he was not (Mutant Hitler) and he dominated the X-Books for what I consider their worst period. It wasn't just Jean who was affected because any character who wasn't Cyclops or in his Brotherhood of (formerly?) Evil Mutants was similarly treated as an afterthought. The X-Women especially got the brunt of it so that a fake blonde with a past history of rape could be elevated to the HBIC with Storm being written out of the X-Books with her marriage, Lorna and Rachel being thrown into space, Kitty being trapped in a bullet, etc. Rogue and Psylocke were the only ones who were able to recover because they found secondary books with writers who still valued them and made them protagonists and I've noticed that this is a reason why Mike Carey's X-Men: Legacy and Rick Remender's Uncanny X-Force are still considered great runs, whereas everything else from that era often has a very negative reputation now. Yet, in the flagship X-Titles and crossovers, Rogue and Psylocke were always absent or wallpaper so it's only thanks to those writers that they got any spotlight.

Yes, please feel free to message me. I'm very curious about any character that affected Jean's trajectory.

I'm going out to avoid responding sarcastically or worse in a rude way. Have a good night.

[Grinning Soul]

Hahaha, that is a cute image!

It's such a little thing really, but a big thing showing our passion for Jean!

I am so glad we have new things and as well as the old that we discuss. Jean is sooo complex!

Sorry, hon. I missed your post yesterday.

Fingers cross her stories will keep getting better and better. :)

Have a great week! o/

I'm going out to avoid responding sarcastically or worse in a rude way. Have a good night.

I don't think we'll ever know who tried to bring Jean back and when because well... Marvel lies. They lie in covers (and promotional materials), in solicitations and in interviews. That's not to say they always lie, but their lying makes it impossible to know when they're being truthful.

What we know is that they kept Jean dead for a long time and kept teasing her return.

I also think that some of it might not have been pure teasing. I think sometimes plans change. For instance, I have the feeling both AvX and Schism ended up very different than the original plans. But it's just a feeling really. I don't know this for a fact. When it comes to the Krakoa era, though, it seems clear that was the case.

Anyway, I understand that they have to keep an eye on sales, but if I was in the editorial staff, I'd push for the sales to be quality-driven, not gimmick-driven. I think its contradictory of them to want comic books to be respected as a narrative medium when they pull those silly stunts.

It harms the reputation of the medium and the company and, in my view, it's not good sales-wise in the long-run.

--

I might not have time to reply to your message, so have a great week as well. o/

(If you want to discuss anything, fell free to PM me. I might miss a message here, but I try to remember to check my inbox).

[MechaJeanix]

I also think it is strange when folks hate on Morrison's run or his take on Jean. Morrison's Jean was very much loved and very popular at the time. Her Phoenix Disinfection plot was a huge story for her at that time. I'd argue it is her second main Phoenix story after the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Sagas. Morrison's Jean was confident, fiery, and powerful-- but she was still her deeply compassionate and empathic self as well (we saw that in her comforting Xavier, Beast, Beak, rescuing Emma, etc). She was also becoming more of a mutant leader with her press conference, being acting headmistress, and helping Xavier create the international X-Corps.

Morrison brought back and elevated her White Phoenix status, re-imagined the cocoon concept as a Phoenix Egg, and wrote her connection to the Phoenix as part of her mutation.

Sure, she died in New 150, but only to be reborn in the future to complete her disinfection of Sublime.

He wrote that she dies to return, always coming back.

And gave her the means to return, the Phoenix Egg.

It was editorial that demanded, dead is dead, and wouldn't let her return for a long time. They also wanted to push Scott and Emma. I realize some fans blame Morrison for starting that though.

Morrison implied Scott chose Jean, but Jean had to push Scott to stay with Emma to continue the school and Xavier's dream. She had to water the changed universe with her heart's blood.

I've long considered Morrison's Jean to be a perfect blend of "Jean Grey" and "Phoenix".

But I can see how some fans didn't like the Scott/Emma affair or Jean's death.

And of course Endsong was always in canon. Claremont had Rachel refer to it in Uncanny Reload. She mentions that her mom Jean returned briefly but was back to being dead. For some reason he had her say she thought Jean was severed from the Phoenix now which didn't make any sense since Jean was White Phoenix at the end of Endsong, but I think he wanted to use it with Rachel.

The Morrison run for me is always the standard. It was a great time and their Jean was fantastic! Jean was the best version of herself in that run.

Of course since then we have had so many good writers of Jean like Bendis, Hopeless, Taylor, Percy, Gillen, and Duggan.

I look forward to the rest of the Jean solo and am excited for her appearance in Immortal X-men.