Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[Phoenixx9]

You know it! We'll call this one Jean Reilly.

I agree. It is Perfect!

[Phoenixx9]

You know it! We'll call this one Jean Reilly.

And when the Real Jean Grey finds out...Mr Sinister will be Mr Squashed Bug! Bwahahahahahaha.

[Soulsword323]

You can find enjoyment in something, but still have criticism and complaints.

I've really liked a lot of what we've gotten from Jean this era. She's had some strong moments, and has never strayed too far from her character IMO. Jean's definitely had some lows, but what character hasn't. Duggan overall has done a good job with Jean, but he has a tendency to not dig as deep as some of the other writers. I appreciate how Gerry set up some Phoenix story beats for Gillen to play with, and that resulted in probably one of the strongest spotlights Jean's received in ages. Duggan's Jean is always powerful, passionate, and capable, but there's more to comics than just that.

jwatson, and Celestialboidies, both have valid points when it comes to Jean. I, like other fans, have seen the overarching plot of Jean's realization that Krakoa needs to not only have a say in who represents them, but something that aligns more with Jean's own personal values. While this is not always explicitly said, if you're following Jean, then you get the overall picture. However, none of this is too exciting, or pushing Jean into new territory. We've seen Jean lead the X-Men before. We've seen her working alongside Cyclops as they navigate what life throws at them. I understand that writers say they have long-term plans for Jean, but right now she just feels like she's there.

I'm always eager and excited to see Jean. I just wish she could be in something that makes deep cuts into X-Men lore like Gillen does. Or pushes boundaries like Ewing. I love Duggan's X-Men, and I'm thankful that he writes a good Jean. X-Men is an important title, and Jean plays a huge role, and that's awesome. But I don't think people are really that off when they talk about Jean just being present. She has an opinion, and takes part in the action, and then other characters come in to pick up those established threads, and do something more interesting than what she typically gets.

[Lukmendes]

I'm thinking third-person cam in something like a Tales of Arise or a Dragon's Dogma.

X-men Legends is third-person in the literal sense, but it's isometric/top-down.

Yeah, a lot of the fun of RPGs for me is having many satisfying choices to make when it comes to building the character. Gotta have a variety of useful, cool-looking moves to choose from, especially with things to choose of give up. Like a classic way to do Jean is have a TP tree, a TK tree, and a Phoenix tree, and specing heavy into one could mean you don't have the skill points needed to reach the absolute top of the others, so you're making choices.

I don't like how arcadey the MUA series became. X-Men Legends wasn't deep, but MUA was basically just a beaten up and collectathon, particularly 3.

I would go super-duper heavy on RPG elements, and that's just game play, let alone story.

I would still prefer to let the "action" part of the action RPG to be important, 'cause I actually replayed X-Men Legends and Ultimate Alliance games and the combat is, not particularly impressive, and it gets annoying at times lol.

I feel Ultimate Alliance 2 is a step on the right direction to keep its combat fast and allowing for more flexible use of moves (Thanks to block cancel), though that one toned down RPG elements to the point you can reach the level cap in just two playthroughs (And just one if you start on the hardest most, since it starts you at level 30(, and the game isn't particularly long lol.

But yeah, a hydrid between the action and the RPG elements could be fun, and characters really should get more options, specially stuff that isn't bad, Cyke in Ultimate Alliance 1 was a pretty fun character since he had a flexible moveset.

But I want to forget X-Men Green! :P

I don't see why, it's the best X-Men story yet .

Yeah. But to be fair, I think he was aiming at a more plot-oriented story that would actually end (relatively) quickly and probably be (at least partially) reversed at the end. So it wouldn’t matter too much anyway.

But the plans changed, so… We’ll never know.

Yeah it being more plot oriented isn't surprising, Hickman seems to be more of a plot over character kind of writer, and it definitely is noticed, to the point that even I noticed how weird it was that characters weren't reacting much to what was going on.

Crucible issue in particular, with that barbaric ritual going on and Cyke and Nightcrawler not reacting, all I could think from that was "Am I supposed to cheer for these assholes?"

Maybe it’s just me, but if the game feels too easy, I lose interest. It has to be, at least, challenging.

And, of course, what is challenging varies from player to player because we all have different skills.

I feel the same, but ultimately what people enjoy in a game varies from person to person.

A lot of Triple A games are super popular despite the game practically trying to play for you after all.

I’d say the most fundamental thing for a game is that the gameplay is fun. If the game has that, anything you pile on top of it is a welcome bonus.

Personally, like I said, I need some challenge too. But it might not be necessary for all players. I really don't know.

Well, a big problem with anything is brand recognition, and brand recognition can keep people around even when they aren't having fun.

I mention this because there are plenty of gaming franchises that went to **** on the gameplay department and they still were played.

Sometimes it goes too far and it kills the franchise, but some names are so big they stay around.

And then, again, there are games that don't even need to have a challenge or a particularly interesting gameplay to be popular.

An easy example is Silent Hill, its gameplay has bad combat, and some of the older games are popular despite that, specially worth mentioning Silent Hill 2, which is easily the most popular game (And most games after Team Silent stopped making the games are ripping it off in one way or another), but the gameplay is nothing worth commenting, to the point playing it on easier difficulties can be considered a better experience for some.

And like I said before, Marvel vs Capcom Infinite, has okay gameplay, and the game is still detested.

Good gameplay keeps a game alive, but presentation to get the player invested and remember it afterwards is just as important, and Silent Hill 2's presentation is amazing, which's why its whatever gameplay doesn't diminish from the experience.

I’d say, for the super hero genre, it’s usually amazing art (particularly on the fight scenes) that makes you stomach a bad story. Generally speaking, if the characters read fun, they’re probably being well-written and chances are the stories are not that terrible.

Well, a character and/or story can be fun, and still be poorly written lol.

Me and a friend are kinda obsessed with a fanfiction he found, it's terrible in every standard you can think of, but holy ****, what an unique experience, sometimes it takes us hours to read one fucking chapter.

This is fair, but we should remember that we got approximately three pages worth of Emma telling Scott all about Moira and Xavier and yet, barely any reaction from him other than how he thought Jean would respond. And we still haven't gotten further insight into how he feels about what he learned.

I'll say this is a constant problem with Moira lol.

Characters who knew her for years don't react much to her suddenly returning, and that happens under every writer who used her, including Hickman.

Like, when there were discussions about Inferno#4 vol 2, I've seen it being mentioned that Cipher spared her because of their shared past, but the issue itself gave me no hints they knew each other at all given their lack of reaction to each other lol.

Going back to one of the problems I have with Duggan's writing, he simply doesn't write enough. I think this is partially due to him seemingly being spread to thing. When he was writing Marauders, he was preparing for and writing X-Men. While writing X-Men, he's been preparing for and writing Invincible Iron-Man, along with other comic books. Whatever the reason may be, he does well with big, sweeping developments, including those centered on specific characters, but he doesn't delve as deeply into those developments as I and I'm sure many others would like him to.

Yeah it seems his writing style is to push the characters in a specific direction without going too deep into their thoughts, it's why I find some moments to be superficial in development.

Ultimately of his X-Men run, every issue I read was a very okay experience, I didn't really regret reading anything, and there are cool ideas and nice moments here and there, but it didn't really impress me in its writing quality, and it was lacking with noticeable consistency, which's what contributed to the "it's okay" vibe I got.

You know it! We'll call this one Jean Reilly.

Keep in mind that Sinister has a real fetish for chimeras lately (And Sins of Sinister definitely didn't forget that), so maybe Jean Reilly is actually Jean and Reilly .

[CaptainUniverse]

Keep in mind that Sinister has a real fetish for chimeras lately (And Sins of Sinister definitely didn't forget that), so maybe Jean Reilly is actually Jean and Reilly .

So...that would actually make her Ben and Jean's daughter? Oh man, they really are trying to bring the worlds of Spider-Man and X-Men closer together!

[Lukmendes]

So...that would actually make her Ben and Jean's daughter? Oh man, they really are trying to bring the worlds of Spider-Man and X-Men closer together!

Nothing like a creep overly obsessed with genes to bring us all together, very literally too .

[CaptainUniverse]

Nothing like a creep overly obsessed with genes to bring us all together, very literally too .

And that, kids, is how May "Mayday" Reilly-Grey became a reality!

[Rev9]

I still think Jean should be a politician and part of the Council. Storm,Nightcrawler, and Jean next to each other really seemed very right in my eyes. For sure, they firmly established that she is a hero and, more importantly, that she is one of the few who wants to keep Xavier's old dream alive.

That is the most beautiful aspect of Duggan's X-Men in my eyes. Although the second year is less interested in those small moments of solidarity between humans and mutants between battles.

Jean's entire stick is finding ways for solidarity across borders. I hope it will not be too long before we find out more about her role in the new Phoenix Foundation.

I could be wrong ,but I get the feeling the foundation will be scrapped after SoS(if there is any fallout)

[Grinning Soul]

I've come to appreciate my debates and banter with Kitty, and I appreciate it even more when they give well-rounded reasons rather than resorting to quips for why they feel and think the way they do. I think these debates are healthy and can be insightful as long as they don't devolve into personal insults and attacks. Still, I appreciate you trying to be the voice of reason, a neutral observer of our discussions, if you will.

Your interactions are usually okay when it comes to personal insults and attacks. I wasn’t worried about that. It was mostly about the tiring aspect of it.

But it’s very likely I was projecting. My social battery is tiny. I like sharing ideas, but I get drained really easily. Even when the interaction is awesome, being outside my head for too long can be exhausting. I have to remember that other people can keep at it for days. :)

You guys are good. I just worry too much.

I don't see why, it's the best X-Men story yet :p.

That sarcasm is absolutely delicious! :D

Yeah it being more plot oriented isn't surprising, Hickman seems to be more of a plot over character kind of writer, and it definitely is noticed, to the point that even I noticed how weird it was that characters weren't reacting much to what was going on.

Crucible issue in particular, with that barbaric ritual going on and Cyke and Nightcrawler not reacting, all I could think from that was "Am I supposed to cheer for these assholes?"

Yeah. It’s one of the reasons why I don’t like Hickman’s style. The way he writes characters always feels at least a bit off to me. I’ve tried other of his runs for Marvel and I ended dropping them after a few issues, even though I was interested in the ideas he was developing. But his style was that much of a turn off. I only kept up with the X-Men because I’m a big fan.

I feel the same, but ultimately what people enjoy in a game varies from person to person.

A lot of Triple A games are super popular despite the game practically trying to play for you after all.

I don’t really understand why. I’ve wondered if they’re catering to people who actually have less skills and the game is actually challenging for them. In other words, am I being a snob? I shouldn’t, because I’m no where near being an awesome player. :P

Well, a big problem with anything is brand recognition, and brand recognition can keep people around even when they aren't having fun.

I mention this because there are plenty of gaming franchises that went to **** on the gameplay department and they still were played.

Sometimes it goes too far and it kills the franchise, but some names are so big they stay around.

And then, again, there are games that don't even need to have a challenge or a particularly interesting gameplay to be popular.

An easy example is Silent Hill, its gameplay has bad combat, and some of the older games are popular despite that, specially worth mentioning Silent Hill 2, which is easily the most popular game (And most games after Team Silent stopped making the games are ripping it off in one way or another), but the gameplay is nothing worth commenting, to the point playing it on easier difficulties can be considered a better experience for some.

And like I said before, Marvel vs Capcom Infinite, has okay gameplay, and the game is still detested.

Good gameplay keeps a game alive, but presentation to get the player invested and remember it afterwards is just as important, and Silent Hill 2's presentation is amazing, which's why its whatever gameplay doesn't diminish from the experience.

I pretty much agree with all of that. But I was talking more in general terms of what makes a game good. Because being popular doesn’t make a game good, in my opinion. And I guess that’s the problem here: how do you even define a game as “good”? Popularity/financial success is a valid (and objective) metric, but it doesn’t necessarily correlates with quality, as you pointed out.

But anyway, this is getting quite far from Jean at this point. If you want to keep chatting about it, as usual, I’m game (bad pun intended). Let’s do it over PMs, tough, okay? :)

Well, a character and/or story can be fun, and still be poorly written lol.

Me and a friend are kinda obsessed with a fanfiction he found, it's terrible in every standard you can think of, but holy ****, what an unique experience, sometimes it takes us hours to read one fucking chapter.

I’m verbose and my writing is, at best, questionable. But I swear it wasn’t me who wrote that! :D

Jokes aside, personally, it’s really hard for me to enjoy something that is poorly written. The thing is that there are so many factors involved in writing that you can usually find a redeeming one. If I really, really like that factor, I might be able to stomach the rest. But it’s rare that it happens when the rest is utter trash.

[Micabe]

So...that would actually make her Ben and Jean's daughter? Oh man, they really are trying to bring the worlds of Spider-Man and X-Men closer together!

IMHO, if there's no human Male/Female physical huffin', puffin', moanin', and groanin' involved then Chimeras are nothing more than parentless DNA molecule sequences derived from two or more different organisms, compiled to function with "Sinister" purpose...

[Lukmendes]

Yeah. It’s one of the reasons why I don’t like Hickman’s style. The way he writes characters always feels at least a bit off to me. I’ve tried other of his runs for Marvel and I ended dropping them after a few issues, even though I was interested in the ideas he was developing. But his style was that much of a turn off. I only kept up with the X-Men because I’m a big fan.

I tend to find his concepts fun, but even when I'm okay with his characterizations, the way his writing styl is a lot of times basically "plant the seeds for something cool later", gets on my nerves, specially when the current issue was boring.

A friend of mine put it perfectly, "the intrigue of whether itll be intriguing".

I don’t really understand why. I’ve wondered if they’re catering to people who actually have less skills and the game is actually challenging for them. In other words, am I being a snob? I shouldn’t, because I’m no where near being an awesome player. :P

There are very different levels of skill lol.

It couldn't be more clear than whenever I see my father playing games, he fails at the most basic platforming very constantly, simply because he's not used to playing games.

Triple A **** by having so much hand holding makes the experience less stressful by killing you less, that way it can make the experience better for non-gamers or newbies, which can enhance their experience by stuff like the good graphics.

Essentially there's more than one way of enjoying a game, and stuff like Triple As only really start to show their issues if you have played games that allow for more freedom.

I pretty much agree with all of that. But I was talking more in general terms of what makes a game good. Because being popular doesn’t make a game good, in my opinion. And I guess that’s the problem here: how do you even define a game as “good”? Popularity/financial success is a valid (and objective) metric, but it doesn’t necessarily correlates with quality, as you pointed out.

It's very arbitrary lol.

In particular I find the usual turn based RPGs to be anti-fun, but those kind of games are very popular, and while I can understand why it's liked, I prefer to stay the **** away from these games.

But anyway, this is getting quite far from Jean at this point. If you want to keep chatting about it, as usual, I’m game (bad pun intended). Let’s do it over PMs, tough, okay?

My PMs are surprisingly almost full so that'd be complicated until I delete some **** lol.

There is enough room for one more so you can send one if interested.

I’m verbose

That's really not why we take hours to read it, we just **** around a lot when discussing and laughing.

and my writing is, at best, questionable. But I swear it wasn’t me who wrote that!

Honestly if that writer was here as an active poster I would likely be able to tell, or at least wonder why the member is sounding familiar, she has ay, peculiar, writing style, and it remains even when she's not writing a fanfiction.

So yeah, unless you've been secretly writing fanfictions for a specific game franchise, and writing it poorly for over 10 years while pretending to be a very different person, and still be writing fanfictions for that franchise to this day, it ain't you lol.

Jokes aside, personally, it’s really hard for me to enjoy something that is poorly written. The thing is that there are so many factors involved in writing that you can usually find a redeeming one. If I really, really like that factor, I might be able to stomach the rest. But it’s rare that it happens when the rest is utter trash.

The thing is that something can be poorly written, and be fun because of it.

It's part of the appeal of B-movies, the youtube reviewers Red Letter Media are in love with Neil Breen because of it too lol.

Of course, if you can't stand something that is poorly written at all then those things won't appeal to you, but the point of view of how something is enjoyed varies from person to person, and this damn thread is a big evidence of this considering all of the point of views about how each member likes Jean and whether or not they're satisfied with the current direction, and also the very different ways they would want Jean to be improved.

IMHO, if there's no human Male/Female physical huffin', puffin', moanin', and groanin' involved then Chimeras are nothing more than parentless DNA molecule sequences derived from two or more different organisms, compiled to function with "Sinister" purpose...

Well, still worth saying that being created for evil reasons doesn't mean they should only be treated poorly (Though if they punch a character in the face, it's only fair to subdue them).

[Grinning Soul]

I tend to find his concepts fun, but even when I'm okay with his characterizations, the way his writing styl is a lot of times basically "plant the seeds for something cool later", gets on my nerves, specially when the current issue was boring.

A friend of mine put it perfectly, "the intrigue of whether itll be intriguing".

I don’t share the “intrigue of whether it’ll be intriguing” sentiment per se, but I found it a really funny way to put it and I can see why you guys feel this way. :)

I’m usually intrigued from the start. If I stop and think about the ideas, they’re compelling. I should like reading the stories, but I don’t. Something about his style doesn’t work for me. It’s the characterization that is off, but then the dialogue is also clunky on top of that, then there are a lot of tell don’t show… It’s a combination of all of that and some other things. But if I talk too much about it, someone will be offended. I’ll leave it at this.

I replied to the gaming stuff in a PM.

[Daedra]

I don’t share the “intrigue of whether it’ll be intriguing” sentiment per se, but I found it a really funny way to put it and I can see why you guys feel this way.

I’m usually intrigued from the start. If I stop and think about the ideas, they’re compelling. I should like reading the stories, but I don’t. Something about his style doesn’t work for me. It’s the characterization that is off, but then the dialogue is also clunky on top of that, then there are a lot of tell don’t show… It’s a combination of all of that and some other things. But if I talk too much about it, someone will be offended. I’ll leave it at this.

I replied to the gaming stuff in a PM.

Grinning Soul be like :




I love that you were able to summarize the secret to a long and happy life of smooth sailing in such a short sentence!

My social battery is tiny. I like sharing ideas, but I get drained really easily. Even when the interaction is awesome, being outside my head for too long can be exhausting. I have to remember that other people can keep at it for days.

….I knew there was a reason I always felt such affinity with you GS.

[davetvs]

Grinning Soul, you really are such a sweetheart. I hope you have a great week.

[Grinning Soul]

Sorry for splitting the reply, but the chat is bugging again and counting quote tags as images...

Grinning Soul be like :

I love that you were able to summarize the secret to a long and happy life of smooth sailing in such a short sentence!

Smooth sailing is a big component of it indeed. But I mainly see it as a matter of personal responsibility. I don't know who is reading my public messages. I don't want to hurt anyone. It never feels good, even when they deserve it.

I'm something of a Wednesday Adams (from the Netflix series), but cursed with an overgrown conscience that makes me feel like it's my duty to filter myself. :P

My partner likes to tease me just to see the inner Wednesday emerge to reply to his silliness. :D