Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[MechaJeanix]

Much as I love Jean and Phoenix, I hope that Jean as Phoenix or with Phoenix doesn’t just become a plot device to “right the wrongs”. To be honest I have no idea what Dominion is, though I am intrigued, but the Orchis stuff just bores me.

I wanna see a powerful resolution to it, but no some kind of deux et machina type thing (if that’s the right expression).

Just wildly speculating but there are so many possibilities here...

Jean as the Phoenix may end up helping in the Dominion resolution, or she/the phoenix may be gravely injured so it may not be at full power, Hope and Exodus might do something big (through Jean, Hope has already manifested the Phoenix in issue 17), there are so many directions this story might go. Writers often want to subvert what readers may expect.

The Dominion stuff is both interesting and sort of convoluted. I read an article on Marvel.com and was still confused. I think it will take a lot of the X-men working together to defeat it - maybe this is where Dead X-men will come into play, or the resurrection of Magneto, and whatever Jean will be up to in X-men Forever (along with Exodus, Hope, Destiny and the Five).

In the Krakoa conclusion we have the big battle with Orchis while also the mutants dealing with the Dominion. Scott and the X-men will be taking on Orchis imo while Xavier/Sinister and others tackle the Dominion. Maybe it will all converge at some point or we'll see the results in the future with Rise of Powers of X? Who knows. Should be fun though.

[mike7171]

So what happens next after Immortal #18 won't be revealed until X-Men Forever which comes out March?!?

Ugh, this the longest 3 months ever!

[Celestialbodies]

Not to bring any more negativity to the thread but I'm going to step back from the X-titles for awhile. Listen I know our girl is going to get her moment but it is concerning for me how casual Marvel is about murdering her in such gruesome ways that reduces her agency. I'm also saddened to see her in such a state, though I'm grateful for everything Simonson was able to do with her.

[The Thunderbird]

After reading Immortal X-Men 18, I also say it's going to be a long wait. That's definitely a cliffhanger when I see one.

The Dominion looks like it's going to be super powerful which tells me that Jean would have to be the White Phoenix of the Crown to defeat it. What I'm concerned of where Jean's going to be after this. I don't want her to transcend this plane or die again that would leave her absent for years.

[MechaJeanix]

Maybe Jean/Phoenix will be so injured from what MR did to her in the WHR that Jean as Phoenix will not be as powerful and will not be able to stop the Dominion. The Dominion will be stopped by the mutants working together, or doing time travel shenanigans, or a big mutant circuit, or using all the mutant omegas together, etc. Who knows. I could see a lot of possibilities.

I also do not want to see Jean sidelined after this -to be dead or in the future, or whatever. It does seem like they have some plan with her and this is all part of it.

I realize seeing Jean be brutalized is hard to take and I agree she's had a little agency in Immortal but that is likely why we had the Jean mini. We saw the complexity of her character there. It was a great addition to the current story and Jean's current predicament.

Two months is a long time but it will go by fairly quick.

I wonder if they will explain why mutants have a connection to the White Hot Room, is it an afterlife just for them or what? We know the Phoenix cares for mutants - Jean cares for mutants. But also we saw the Phoenix keep mutants from being destroyed in Phoenix Warsong and we know the Phoenix helped bring new mutants back after Wanda's spell, etc. So there is a connection with the Phoenix and mutants. I just wonder if they will further explain or keep it left open.

The description that MR uses to explain Jean's connection with the Phoenix was worth the issue imo, "in a circle without beginning or end". Good stuff.

[MythicalChicken]

Leaving the books because a character got stabbed? Really?

It was shocking at how sudden MR attacked her, but as Jean's "deaths" go it was way more respectful to the character than Xorn/Mags at the end of Morrison's run. And given all the different work on Jean being the X-World's 500 lb. gorilla this era, it's clearly setting something up.

Maybe I'm missing something but it's like y'all want every single issue to be Yasss Queen holding-apart-a-sun-a-la-Judgment Day, which is boring all the time. On the whole, this is as interesting as Jean's ever been post-Claremont (And I've even say more interesting than Claremont's good-girl-bad-girl Madonna-Whore take on her).

[brightnessatmidnight]

Leaving the books because a character got stabbed? Really?

It was shocking at how sudden MR attacked her, but as Jean's "deaths" go it was way more respectful to the character than Xorn/Mags at the end of Morrison's run. And given all the different work on Jean being the X-World's 500 lb. gorilla this era, it's clearly setting something up.

Maybe I'm missing something but it's like y'all want every single issue to be Yasss Queen holding-apart-a-sun-a-la-Judgment Day, which is boring all the time. On the whole, this is as interesting as Jean's ever been post-Claremont (And I've even say more interesting than Claremont's good-girl-bad-girl Madonna-Whore take on her).

Entering a Jungian (innermost) cave right before facing an ordeal? Jean's been given the protagonist/hero treatment the most out of this era, right to the climax, and all that it entails.

I think the issue for some readers is that process has basically been split between four books (Hellfire Gala Annual, Jean Grey Mini, Immortal, and then X-men Forever) within a slow, serialized publication process so waiting for the pay off is excruciating.

But seriously, Jean fans have already waited more than a decade after the Morrison New X-men death with no clear plans and endless teases and bating, so what's less than a year with a clear narrative payoff and planning?

But I will say this death is gruesome (but not in the gory sense), and it's meant to be. It should feel like sacrilege. When you have a Christ-stand in character where death has no meaning, the details of the death to have some impact. This death is gruesome because it strikes at the heart of what Jean and the WHR is supposed to represent to creative types by sacrificing her to unwittingly empower the Engima/AI. Current events over the past year concerning those in creative fields and AI have clearly influenced where Immortal ended up, and I don't think it would have been written this way if they hadn't happened.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I can appreciate a dramatic Jean death as long as it isn't infantilizing (like the HoxPox death) or permanent. That was a cool visual.

I would just hope that Jean will be more active in X-Men Forever.

[brightnessatmidnight]

Can you imagine what people's reactions would have been to this last issue of Immortal if we hadn't received the X-men Forever cover and preview description?

[The Thunderbird]

Here's a bit of speculation. So Jean Grey is grievously wounded but this time in the White Hot Room. What does this mean? From Mother Righteous' monologue as well as the solicit for X-Men: Forever 1 that this will damage the Phoenix too. Recent issues hint that the White Hot Room itself is tied to Jean Grey and the Phoenix very intimately so I think that the White Hot Room will suffer similarly. What are the implications? Well, the people trapped inside there are going to have to find a way to heal Jean because if she dies there for too long then the White Hot Room will be destroyed. This will kill everyone trapped in there at the very least and could even lead to the Marvel Multiverse itself slowly dying because the room of creation no longer exists.

I think that Hope and co. will save Jean Grey herself by restoring her body but the Phoenix and WHR will still be damaged. However this will make Jean alive again and as a result completely lucid.

[Celestialbodies]

I guess that comment was directed at me....

You can not be this dense, and I struggle to understand why so many of you who claim to fans of Jean, are under this diluted belief that anyone wants Jean to be this all powerful unstoppable force? Who has ever stated that? I do think she struggles as a character with getting consistent development which focuses through HER perspective. Which at least for me, her recent solo highlights how compelling a character Jean can be when given intention. I am well aware of how comics work, so of course we will have the moment of triumph, but the journey is also important and the optics of her being murdered so savagely while so helpless is frustrating. This is the big story for her in IMX? I trust Gillen to stick the landing, but as a fan of the character no I'm not especially excited about the last 3 months of her being incoherent, helpless, and then dead again.

Also while I appreciate the efforts from Gillen nothing we've read the past few months is new information, its literally what happens with her every few decades, she's detached from all things Phoenix, now these things are being re-established but truthfully we haven't learned much and at the very least I was hoping for more from the woman being lead on a chain through the space she's intrinsically connected to, but that's just me!

[Grinning Soul]

Leaving the books because a character got stabbed? Really?

It was shocking at how sudden MR attacked her, but as Jean's "deaths" go it was way more respectful to the character than Xorn/Mags at the end of Morrison's run. And given all the different work on Jean being the X-World's 500 lb. gorilla this era, it's clearly setting something up.

Maybe I'm missing something but it's like y'all want every single issue to be Yasss Queen holding-apart-a-sun-a-la-Judgment Day, which is boring all the time. On the whole, this is as interesting as Jean's ever been post-Claremont (And I've even say more interesting than Claremont's good-girl-bad-girl Madonna-Whore take on her).

What a person does with their time and money is up to them.

Please, don't assume you understand the reasons of someone you don't know and don't assume they must be an absurd fan just because they don't appreciate a story that you like.

Even if that is the case? It's their opinion and they're allowed to have it. You're allowed to disagree as well. Just, please, be respectful if you wish to express it.

[Omega_DCD]

Question...the coherent Jean we saw at the end of the recent mini, what state of being is she in? Hope, Exodus, and her other self are there, and Jean(with the Phoenix) is able to affect things(or at least her other self, thereby allowing Hope to mimic her Phoenix powers), but is unseen/unheard and seemingly out-of-phase. I know Jean's mini seems from the perspective of immediately following her Gala death, and Jean does recount her death there...but as her other projections said, she's "starting" to remember...what if this is her consciousness after what we just saw, getting stabbed by Mother Righteous?

[MythicalChicken]

What a person does with their time and money is up to them.

Please, don't assume you understand the reasons of someone you don't know and don't assume they must be an absurd fan just because they don't appreciate a story that you like.

Even if that is the case? It's their opinion and they're allowed to have it. You're allowed to disagree as well. Just, please, be respectful if you wish to express it.

Sorry if you think that was rude, but even if that was the intent, counterpoint: when I'm being ridiculous, and I have been plenty of times x-related or otherwise, I sort of wished someone brought me back to earth.

I suppose in this case especially hard to even grasp because these past few years have been a buffet for both her (and Storm for that matter), characters who've both been woefully underserved these past few (as in 10+) years.

But I don't want to derail this conversation, especially with what have been an incredible run of issues lately counting the mini. Jean/Phoenix has never been this compelling, even when I don't agree with the creative decisions, so I hope folks see it through to the end.

And when I'm all sky-is-falling because I have zero confidence in Beveroot(sic) you can call me out and I'll probably deserve it :-)

[Grinning Soul]

Sorry if you think that was rude, but even if that was the intent, counterpoint: when I'm being ridiculous, and I have been plenty of times x-related or otherwise, I sort of wished someone brought me back to earth.

I suppose in this case especially hard to even grasp because these past few years have been a buffet for both her (and Storm for that matter), characters who've both been woefully underserved these past few (as in 10+) years.

But I don't want to derail this conversation, especially with what have been an incredible run of issues lately counting the mini. Jean/Phoenix has never been this compelling, even when I don't agree with the creative decisions, so I hope folks see it through to the end.

And when I'm all sky-is-falling because I have zero confidence in Beveroot(sic) you can call me out and I'll probably deserve it :-)

Look, I know sometimes we get so excited about something that we express things in a way that we don't intend.

I also understood your reasoning for wanting to be called out. I really do. But people are different, you know? Not everyone will appreciate that.

In the end of the day, we're all fans here. That means we're allies, not enemies.

When it comes to Jean, I've learned a long time ago (yes, I'm old :P) that our opinions vary a lot and that doesn't make a person more of a fan than another. What we tend to have in common - for good and for bad - is being very passionate. Which leads to passionate fights sometimes.

So... no harm done, but you know... Just keep that in mind. :)