Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2023: “A Red Dragon”

[Mercury]

You have single-handedly changed my opinion on that man, that's how much power you possess lol.

I'm looking forward to Marvel Age #1000 as well and I think it'll give us a really clear idea on how he envisions Scott and Jean as the foundation of the X-Men. It should be a precursor to his X-Men era.

I'm glad you feel more optimistic! I have a feeling Brevoort has good intentions and promising developments lined up for Jean, Scott, and the rest.

What is Marvel Age 1000 and when is it out?

It drops next week on 8/30.

I partially agree with you guys. Since this seems to be connected to a previous post of mine, I'd like to clarify. [I've clipped your posts because the rest was about Byrne]

I agree with whitecrown that there are different types of haters and/or trolls.

But I don't think the posters who were derailing the Jean Grey #2 thread (talking about Storm) were either. There *might* have been some unconscious envy motivating them (I don't know if there was, because I don't know what was in their heart), and I agree it's really annoying, but I don't think there was any malicious intent there.

That's unlike some other posters who were popping up on different threads, clearly motivated by either hatred for our girl or trying to rile us up because they know we're passionate fans.

I was talking about the latter. I believe I posted that before the Jean Grey #2 thread even existed.

The point that I'm trying to make is that it's okay to engage with people if they are in the first group, even if they are derailing the thread. But we should remember that threads get derailed and it's not personal. Even if derailing a thread is something we should try to avoid, it happens because that's how conversations organically evolve in real life, where we don't have a rule against that.

I think it's useful to remember that other fans don't feel the same as we do. They might be genuinely unaware of how annoying it is to have their character stripped of everything only to be given to other characters. It's hard for those fans to understand why it's a tender spot to us, because they just don't have that experience.

If we're too quick to accuse them, they'll react with a certain hostility because they'll think we're being unfair.

And it's possible we might be acting in an unfair way exactly because it's a tender spot for us.

But really, ask yourselves: how would they know? Their favourite characters haven't been kept dead twice for a total of almost 20 years... That's nearly 1/3 of the life of the franchise for a character who was there in the very first issue...

How would they know?

Hi, Grinning Soul. I hope you're doing well!

To put it bluntly, I don't distinguish one form of rude commentary from another, nor am I prone to assigning labels such as "troll" to individuals. The fact of the matter is that people were being rude regarding Jean, her stories, and her fans in threads centered on her, and that's what I responded to. As for those individuals who had valid points to discuss, albeit ones they chose to adorn with derisive and disparaging remarks, I made it very clear that I only objected to their snide remarks, not their valid points of discussion.

[Grinning Soul]

Hi, Grinning Soul. I hope you're doing well!

To put it bluntly, I don't distinguish one form of rude commentary from another, nor am I prone to assigning labels such as "troll" to individuals. The fact of the matter is that people were being rude regarding Jean, her stories, and her fans in threads centered on her, and that's what I responded to. As for those individuals who had valid points to discuss, albeit ones they chose to adorn with derisive and disparaging remarks, I made it very clear that I only objected to their snide remarks, not their valid points of discussion.

I wasn't criticizing you or anyone. I was sharing my perspective.

I'm a person who has a natural tendency to think of resource allocation and outcome. The way I see it, time is the most precious resource we have, so if we're spending it, I believe we should have an outcome in mind.

Spending time talking to a troll or a hater is tricky. The likely outcome is this:

- A troll will keep trolling because it was never about the discussion. Their goal was to get a reaction from us and if we react we give exactly what they want.

- A hater won't change their mind. You can prove they're factually wrong (when they are), but it's likely they will come back with the same bad argument again soon. And if you did prove they are wrong, they might just get more annoying in the future. And that's because a hater is not rational towards the object of their hate.

As long as people are following the rules, though, they're allowed to do whatever they want. I don't get to tell anyone how they'll use their time.

The point that I was trying to make, though, is that sometimes I think it's worth to ask yourselves if we're over-reacting. A poster might be saying something we don't like to read, but I believe their intention counts. While we'll never know for sure what's in their heart, I think it's better to give them the benefit of the doubt. And I don't think it hurts to recognize that we have our tender spots and we might be unfair from time to time. We're not perfect...

But again: that's just me. It's just how my brain works. I understand people are different. I was trying to share my perspective and I'm not saying I'm right either.

[Gnostic]

Jean/Dark Phoenix might be an antagonist in the upcoming Deadpool/Wolverine movie based on what this leaker has said:

[Gnostic]

It does seem like this leaker does indeed have some inside information too. They got this right:

[v_jeovanne]

More Jean teasing as pictured below. Despite much of the backlash Jean got in the 2000s from Marvel editorial who said she was better off dead (which is why I'm worried about Tom Brevoort because he used to regularly troll Jean fans about how she was never coming back), there were many writers who did love her and wanted to use her. Bendis is the most high-profile example. He wanted Jean to be part of the New Avengers along with Wolverine. His run was all about bringing back popular 70s characters like Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, Iron Fist (notice they were all written by Chris Claremont), and of course Jean was the epitome of the 70s as Phoenix. Bendis even inserted her into the origin of his pet character, Jessica Jones.

Marvel said no, Jean's staying dead. Imagine, that because of one character, our Jean had to remain dead for 14 years. Marvel was so worried about the "damage" she would do to Cyclops with her mere presence, that they couldn't even fathom the idea of having her leave the X-Books and at least be a part of the Avengers universe at a time when the Avengers were Marvel's biggest push. That didn't stop them from teasing her return in Secret Invasion and below, where you can see that Jean and Logan on an Avengers team is what Bendis wanted and to have them paired together as a couple. This was the closest he could get to that by teasing what he wanted but was forbidden to do. We could have seen Jean in an ongoing, maybe even multiple books, working alongside Captain America, Spider-Man, Jessica Drew, Carol Danvers, and Doctor Strange, to name a few. When MCU fans would read the comic books that their favorite movies would have inspired, they'd have seen Jean front and center and been introduced to her. None of that was allowed to be so it was never about the "right story" that could bring her back. It was always about the people in charge admitting to not liking her and not wanting her back, even when some of Marvel's most prolific talent was eager to use her. I wish we could have seen Jean on the New Avengers and only see Bendis write the real Jean Grey and not just Jeen.

Sorry, I just want to mention that the idea of that image was to discover the true option from the false options, Jean is not a member of the Avengers and not having had an official relationship with Logan was immediately removed from the list, along with Daredevil and Elektra. There was never the intention to make Jean a member of the Avengers.

[whitecrown]

Sorry, I just want to mention that the idea of that image was to discover the true option from the false options, Jean is not a member of the Avengers and not having had an official relationship with Logan was immediately removed from the list, along with Daredevil and Elektra. There was never the intention to make Jean a member of the Avengers.

My point for that image was to share that Bendis wanted to bring Jean back and have her join the New Avengers when he launched the book. He was forbidden to do so by Marvel because they wanted her to stay dead. After Secret Invasion, that cover was both a tease by Marvel that Jean could come back (and as you said, we quickly learn that the couple chosen to reunite was Hawkeye and Mockingbird) but also could serve as a tease of what could have been with Jean had Bendis been allowed to do what he originally wanted. If he had been given permission, the couple reunited could very easily have been Jean and Logan.

[whitecrown]

Jean/Dark Phoenix might be an antagonist in the upcoming Deadpool/Wolverine movie based on what this leaker has said:

I've read different leaks for this movie as well. One of the most prominent ones features Wanda as the villain using reality warping to create a House of M reality where Magneto and mutantkind rule. The X-Men (like Scott, Jean, and Storm) would be on Magneto's team whereas there are a few characters who oppose them like Wolverine and Colossus. The reality warping also involves time traveling back to X2 and X3 and apparently Jean and Wanda would have a big fight.

However, the problem with these leaks is that there's nothing to confirm that Elizabeth Olsen is coming back or not and all these leaks hinge on her return for Wanda's role.

We know there's a female villain in the movie played by Emma Corrin but the above leaks also don't feature anything with any character for her (unless she's playing a Wanda variant). Right now rumors are that Emma Corrin is either Spiral or Cassandra Nova with speculation leaning towards Spiral especially because of dimension hopping and time-traveling likely being a plot point in the movie.

[v_jeovanne]

My point for that image was to share that Bendis wanted to bring Jean back and have her join the New Avengers when he launched the book. He was forbidden to do so by Marvel because they wanted her to stay dead. After Secret Invasion, that cover was both a tease by Marvel that Jean could come back (and as you said, we quickly learn that the couple chosen to reunite was Hawkeye and Mockingbird) but also could serve as a tease of what could have been with Jean had Bendis been allowed to do what he originally wanted. If he had been given permission, the couple reunited could very easily have been Jean and Logan.

----------

[Gnostic]

I've read different leaks for this movie as well. One of the most prominent ones features Wanda as the villain using reality warping to create a House of M reality where Magneto and mutantkind rule. The X-Men (like Scott, Jean, and Storm) would be on Magneto's team whereas there are a few characters who oppose them like Wolverine and Colossus. The reality warping also involves time traveling back to X2 and X3 and apparently Jean and Wanda would have a big fight.

However, the problem with these leaks is that there's nothing to confirm that Elizabeth Olsen is coming back or not and all these leaks hinge on her return for Wanda's role.

We know there's a female villain in the movie played by Emma Corrin but the above leaks also don't feature anything with any character for her (unless she's playing a Wanda variant). Right now rumors are that Emma Corrin is either Spiral or Cassandra Nova with speculation leaning towards Spiral especially because of dimension hopping and time-traveling likely being a plot point in the movie.

CWGST says that's BS and Wanda isn't in the movie. I could see a Phoenix vs Dark Phoenix fight happen, where new timeline Jean fights the old timeline Jean.

[whitecrown]

But there was no real plan for that, Bendis never wanted to write about her, or bring her into the Avengers, not until Brevoort gave him the idea to bring her back with the rest of the originals. And Bendis himself said that he had not read anything about her until he was offered the position as a writer for X-men. That is in interviews, so someone is lying or someone has let their imagination run wild.

I've always read in the Jean threads on CBR about Bendis' plans to bring Jean into New Avengers back in the 2000s but being denied and this is a story that's been around for many years now, if not a decade. The part about Bendis never having read Jean before he started writing for X-Men in 2012 also rings as very false to me, even though you say Bendis himself said it in an interview. Is it possible you misinterpreted what he was saying, like maybe he didn't read Silver Age/Teen Jean until he had to write her? Because Bendis loves the 70s Marvel era. His favorite characters all come from that era, hence why he essentially reintroduced Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist in the 2000s. Doctor Strange getting heavy use in New Avengers was also part of this. There's no way one could be a fan of 70s Marvel and miss the All-New All-Different X-Men era, let alone the Phoenix Saga and eventually The Dark Phoenix Saga. Especially since Chris Claremont, who wrote X-Men also wrote Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist. There's a pattern here with Bendis' favorite characters all being characters that Claremont heavily worked on in the 70s, so if he's read all those solo characters that Claremont worked on, why not the main book Claremont is associated with during their creative peak years?

When Bendis created Jessica Jones, his pet character who he made when he wanted to use Spider-Woman but couldn't use her, he went out of his way to use Jean as part of Jessica's origin story and it's Jean as Phoenix from the 70s. If Bendis had little to no familiarity with Jean until 2012, why would he have heavily included her in Jessica's origin? Yet another indication about his love for the 70s is that when the Skrull ship in Secret Invasion crash lands into the Savage Land, it's full of heroes from the 70s dressed in their classic costumes from that era Bendis loved. Wolverine is one of them in his original costume and Jean is there as Phoenix as well. I don't mean to say you're wrong, but it doesn't ring true for me at all that Bendis would have had little to no exposure to Jean before All-New X-Men since all evidence in his writing and tastes points to the contrary. And like I said before, I've long read on these forums about Bendis wanting to use Jean in New Avengers so a story like that couldn't have been created out of thin air and it certainly rings true when you consider what other 70s characters he was bringing back to the spotlight.

It is promising though that you said Brevoort was the one who came up with the idea that Teen Jean and the O5 come to the present. This reinforces my new belief that Brevoort's "Jean trolling" wasn't him trolling Jean fans as much as him trying to let us know that in the Joe Quesada years, Jean Grey was never going to come back to the X-Men and he didn't want to get our hopes up. It wasn't until Quesada was gone that Jean was able to come back and the fact that Brevoort sparked that idea means that we have further proof that Brevoort is a fan of Jean and prefers a Marvel where she's still alive and kicking and doesn't abide by the faulty status quo that she should remain dead.

[whitecrown]

CWGST says that's BS and Wanda isn't in the movie. I could see a Phoenix vs Dark Phoenix fight happen, where new timeline Jean fights the old timeline Jean.

Do you know if he means Wanda as in the Elizabeth Olsen version or any possible recasting or variant of Wanda is off the table as well? All the speculation on Emma Corrin's character makes me wonder if she's meant to be the Wanda of the FoX-Men universe, hence not being played by Elizabeth Olsen. Otherwise, I'm leaning towards her being Spiral as the most likely villain.

As for Jean's role, I'm sure we'll see her in the 90s incarnation since all the rumors have so far been about the X-Men wearing their 90s costumes. There's a good chance there won't even be a Dark Phoenix involved in this story, especially if the leaks about jumping back into the events of X2 and X3 are false. The rumors with Wanda were that Wolverine and company would defeat her by using the cure on her to stop her reality warping. Personally, I still don't think we'll see anyone from the First Class series so if there is a Dark Phoenix appearance, I don't think it'll be Famke vs Sophie. Kevin Feige will likely stick with the X-Men he had a hand in creating, hence why all the rumors so far are only about the original cast. Booboo Stewart has been heavily rumored to come back as Warpath as well.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Alias #28 came out in 2004.

Loud and wrong lol

Edit: nevermind whitecrown said it

Edit2: About Brevoort, he doesn't like Jean. He likes Scott and is big on nostalgia. I just hope he isn't super duper hands-on about it.

[whitecrown]

Alias #28 came out in 2004.

Loud and wrong lol

Edit: nevermind whitecrown said it

Edit2: About Brevoort, he doesn't like Jean. He likes Scott and is big on nostalgia. I just hope he isn't super duper hands-on about it.

And Jean actually appeared twice in Alias. Once as Phoenix from the 70s classic era and then again in the 2004 era in her New X-Men costume. So it's not even that she only appeared once.


Somewhere in the last few pages, Mercury posted about how Brevoort's fav era is the Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne era and that Brevoort considers Scott and Jean to be the core of the X-Men. I know a lot of us Jean fans, including myself, thought he hated her but it seems more increasingly possible that he doesn't hate her after all. Most of us assumed that because of how rude he came across to Jean fans during the "Dark Age" when Marvel had no intention of resurrecting her and Brevoort was blunt about that. My assumption now is that this wasn't Brevoort's personal opinion but just explaining to us that this was Marvel's stance until Joe Quesada left.

We do know that he hates Kitty and Illyana though since he outright stated that he was sick of how Claremont gave them so much focus in the 80s. But I don't think there's anything that suggests he really hates Jean (let's hope so anyway) after all.

[v_jeovanne]

I've always read in the Jean threads on CBR about Bendis' plans to bring Jean into New Avengers back in the 2000s but being denied and this is a story that's been around for many years now, if not a decade. The part about Bendis never having read Jean before he started writing for X-Men in 2012 also rings as very false to me, even though you say Bendis himself said it in an interview. Is it possible you misinterpreted what he was saying, like maybe he didn't read Silver Age/Teen Jean until he had to write her? Because Bendis loves the 70s Marvel era. His favorite characters all come from that era, hence why he essentially reintroduced Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist in the 2000s. Doctor Strange getting heavy use in New Avengers was also part of this. There's no way one could be a fan of 70s Marvel and miss the All-New All-Different X-Men era, let alone the Phoenix Saga and eventually The Dark Phoenix Saga. Especially since Chris Claremont, who wrote X-Men also wrote Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist. There's a pattern here with Bendis' favorite characters all being characters that Claremont heavily worked on in the 70s, so if he's read all those solo characters that Claremont worked on, why not the main book Claremont is associated with during their creative peak years?

When Bendis created Jessica Jones, his pet character who he made when he wanted to use Spider-Woman but couldn't use her, he went out of his way to use Jean as part of Jessica's origin story and it's Jean as Phoenix from the 70s. If Bendis had little to no familiarity with Jean until 2012, why would he have heavily included her in Jessica's origin? Yet another indication about his love for the 70s is that when the Skrull ship in Secret Invasion crash lands into the Savage Land, it's full of heroes from the 70s dressed in their classic costumes from that era Bendis loved. Wolverine is one of them in his original costume and Jean is there as Phoenix as well. I don't mean to say you're wrong, but it doesn't ring true for me at all that Bendis would have had little to no exposure to Jean before All-New X-Men since all evidence in his writing and tastes points to the contrary. And like I said before, I've long read on these forums about Bendis wanting to use Jean in New Avengers so a story like that couldn't have been created out of thin air and it certainly rings true when you consider what other 70s characters he was bringing back to the spotlight.

It is promising though that you said Brevoort was the one who came up with the idea that Teen Jean and the O5 come to the present. This reinforces my new belief that Brevoort's "Jean trolling" wasn't him trolling Jean fans as much as him trying to let us know that in the Joe Quesada years, Jean Grey was never going to come back to the X-Men and he didn't want to get our hopes up. It wasn't until Quesada was gone that Jean was able to come back and the fact that Brevoort sparked that idea means that we have further proof that Brevoort is a fan of Jean and prefers a Marvel where she's still alive and kicking and doesn't abide by the faulty status quo that she should remain dead.

Well years ago in Wizard magazine, Bendis said he would never write Batman, and I think now we know something changed to make him change his mind.
I don't spend a lot of time on forums anywhere, so I don't know the theories that have been said for years, my experience comes from interviews, magazines and my internship, my boss had original plan documents for various characters as the real reason for the separation of Peter and Mary Jean, I understand that there was never a real plan for Jean to return in those years. I could be wrong? of course, but give me something authentic to change my mind, not some years-old theory.

[Gnostic]

Do you know if he means Wanda as in the Elizabeth Olsen version or any possible recasting or variant of Wanda is off the table as well? All the speculation on Emma Corrin's character makes me wonder if she's meant to be the Wanda of the FoX-Men universe, hence not being played by Elizabeth Olsen. Otherwise, I'm leaning towards her being Spiral as the most likely villain.

As for Jean's role, I'm sure we'll see her in the 90s incarnation since all the rumors have so far been about the X-Men wearing their 90s costumes. There's a good chance there won't even be a Dark Phoenix involved in this story, especially if the leaks about jumping back into the events of X2 and X3 are false. The rumors with Wanda were that Wolverine and company would defeat her by using the cure on her to stop her reality warping. Personally, I still don't think we'll see anyone from the First Class series so if there is a Dark Phoenix appearance, I don't think it'll be Famke vs Sophie. Kevin Feige will likely stick with the X-Men he had a hand in creating, hence why all the rumors so far are only about the original cast. Booboo Stewart has been heavily rumored to come back as Warpath as well.

I don't think we'll see that either. I think we will see Famke vs Famke. Famke will play an older version of Sophie's Jean. Because remember: Famke's Jean and Sophie's Jean are literally the same character, just in different time periods.